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The Electric Comet Theory /SAFIRE Part VI

I’m sure he was a great guy and I sympathise with those who mourn his passing, but he was absolutely not, in any sense, a physicist or cosmologist, or a scientist of any kind.

Thornhill wasn't a physicist or scientist, but I'd say he was a cosmologist in the mold of Immanuel Velikovsky (who wrote and published Cosmos Without Gravitation before writing Worlds in Collision). Like Velikovsky, Thornhill was neither a modern nor a scientific cosmologist.
 
Thornhill wasn't a physicist or scientist, but I'd say he was a cosmologist in the mold of Immanuel Velikovsky (who wrote and published Cosmos Without Gravitation before writing Worlds in Collision). Like Velikovsky, Thornhill was neither a modern nor a scientific cosmologist.

Maybe a mytho-cosmologist?
 
Researchers find new water reservoir on moon



The dribble of water from the dry and rocky comets...

Not by many, many orders of magnitude. I have done the calculation before. So has Tusenfem, iirc. Not. Even. Close.

Apart from anything else, we know where the water vapour at comets comes from - water ice, as we saw blasted out of Tempel 1 in the 1000's of tonnes, and floating around Hartley 2, as well as in the comae of numerous other comets.
 
Complex organosulfur molecules on comet 67P: Evidence from Rosetta orbiter and the lab

The Rosetta orbiter spectrometer for ion and neutral analysis (ROSINA) instrument orbited comet 67P to revolutionize our understanding of cometary material composition.

Simulations in the lab

The ROSINA-double focusing mass spectrometer (ROSINA-DFMS) data obtained during the dust event showed sulfur chemistry to be more complex and diverse than hitherto known or assumed via measurements in the undisturbed coma of the comet. Mahjoub and colleagues assumed this outcome to have resulted from the ice chemistry involving hydrogen sulfide. To explore this in the lab, the team performed electron irradiation experiments on ice mixtures in the presence or absence of the molecules.

The experimental setup included a high-vacuum stainless-steel chamber, where the team deposited ices on a gold substrate attached to a cold finger of a helium cryostat through a gas, to prepare gas mixtures. The setup included an electron gain in the chamber and a Faraday cup to monitor the electron beam current. The team detected the evolving samples with a Fourier transform infrared spectrometer. Further experiments highlighted the rapid dissociation of hydrogen sulfide in the setup, compared to methanol and water samples used in similar experiments, to produce a high concentration of reactive sulfur bearing radicals to predominantly affect the chemistry in the ice films.

BOOM!

me 'ol mate legless jd116!

:D
 
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Gosh, this thread hasn't advanced at all since I last looked at it a couple of years ago.
 
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/01/06/evidence-of-electrical-activity-on-comet-67p-towards-an-electrochemical-framework-for-cometary-phenomena/
Gosh, this thread hasn't advanced at all since I last looked at it a couple of years ago.

Well, somewhat… Evidence of Electrical Activity on Comet 67P: Towards an Electrochemical Framework for Cometary Phenomena

Electrons and not the ions. Jd116’s only leg to stand on. The diamagnetic cavity is a bust too

So, yeah, um mainstream are catching up.

Imagine if they assumed the comet to be a plasma phenomenon.
 
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/01/06/evidence-of-electrical-activity-on-comet-67p-towards-an-electrochemical-framework-for-cometary-phenomena/

Well, somewhat… Evidence of Electrical Activity on Comet 67P: Towards an Electrochemical Framework for Cometary Phenomena

Electrons and not the ions. Jd116’s only leg to stand on. The diamagnetic cavity is a bust too

So, yeah, um mainstream are catching up.

Imagine if they assumed the comet to be a plasma phenomenon.

Linking to a clown like Anariba is not doing you any favours! He hasn't got a clue what he's talking about, as has been pointed out on here before.

The diamagnetic cavity is a bust too

Nope, it is an observation. Get over it.

Imagine if they assumed the comet to be a plasma phenomenon.

Yeah, I mean, why did we stuff Giotto and the Vegas with plasma instruments 37 years ago, and then have plasma physicists (real ones) write an absolute shed load of papers about what they had detected? Try to keep up, there's a good boy.
 
Perfect!

"Asteroid Ryugu's anhydrous ingredients come from afar, study suggests" (“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116.)

Infrared spectra of anhydrous grains from the carbonaceous asteroid Ryugu indicate a connection between one of the reservoirs from which Ryugu's parent body originated and the reservoirs that formed comets and primitive asteroids in the outer protoplanetary disk.

The infrared analysis of Ryugu's anhydrous grains shows that some of them are rich in amorphous silicates, with a mineral composition similar to that of some anhydrous primitive asteroids, comets, and interplanetary dust particles of cometary origin. These amorphous-rich grains formed by pre-accretional processes in the protoplanetary disk from which the solar system originated.

Ryugu's parent asteroid would thus be a large planetesimal that formed in the outer solar system from a reservoir close to the accretion region of comets. Planetary migrations would later have transferred Ryugu's parent asteroid to the main asteroid belt. Aqueous alteration would then have determined the spectral diversity of "primitive" asteroid classes we observe today.

The ELECTRIC COMET! a plasma phenomena! Rocks electrically discharging in a plasma!

:D
 
Scientists identify water molecules on asteroids for the first time

Anhydrous, or dry, silicate asteroids form close to the sun while icy materials coalesce farther out. Understanding the location of asteroids and their compositions tells us how materials in the solar nebula were distributed and have evolved since formation.
Asteroids are DRY and ROCKY whilst Comets are fluffy dirtysnowballs!

Maybe not?

SOFIA detected water molecules in one of the largest craters in the moon's southern hemisphere. Previous observations of both the moon and asteroids had detected some form of hydrogen but could not distinguish between water and its close chemical relative, hydroxyl. Scientists detected roughly equivalent to a 12-ounce bottle of water trapped in a cubic meter of soil spread across the lunar surface, chemically bound in minerals.
Same as on comets! Scientist struggle.

"Based on the band strength of the spectral features, the abundance of water on the asteroid is consistent with that of the sunlit moon," Arredondo said. "Similarly, on asteroids, water can also be bound to minerals as well as adsorbed to silicate and trapped or dissolved in silicate impact glass."
Water on the Sunlit moon? or...most rocky bodies!

The Electrochemistry of Comets by Dr. Franklin Anariba | Space News, posted on YouTube March 31, 2015

Since their was no ice seen on the surface of ANY comet and the similarity's with asteroids, very much seems a common mechanism.

The Electric Comet!
 
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Since their was no ice seen on the surface of ANY comet and the similarity's with asteroids, very much seems a common mechanism.


Is a lie that you have been spouting for years. Plenty of ice seen on the surface of comets. However, anyone with a clue about the basic physics of sublimation will know that we should not expect to see much of it right on the surface, because it.......sublimates! Turns to gas and disappears into the vacuum of space, there to be ionised and picked up by the solar wind, and taken to the nether regions of the heliosphere.

What any sensible person would expect to see at comets is ice BELOW the surface. And that is what we see. And that is why thousands of tonnes of it was ejected in the Tempel 1 impact. And why we saw dirty great chunks of the stuff, entrained by CO2 jets, surrounding Hartley 2. And why we see icy surfaces on 67P when cliffs collapse. Et boring cetera.

And this report is not talking about ice that sublimates. They are talking about water adsorbed onto, and bound within, minerals. Good luck releasing that as H2O vapour at a few hundred Kelvin! If you could, we could save a lot of time, effort, energy and money extracting this water for consumption in future Moon bases, as well as for splitting it up for rocket fuel and oxygen to breathe. If you think you can do it at a few hundred K, I suggest writing it up, and awaiting the invitation to Stockholm, and a rather large cheque. Guess what? The Moon, and asteroids, at ~ 1 AU are getting heated to the same temperatures as comets. They are not outgassing. You need high temperatures to release that water. Comets are doing it at ~ 150 K.
 
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Scientists identify water molecules on asteroids for the first time

Asteroids are DRY and ROCKY whilst Comets are fluffy dirtysnowballs!

Maybe not?

Same as on comets! Scientist struggle.

Water on the Sunlit moon? or...most rocky bodies!

The Electrochemistry of Comets by Dr. Franklin Anariba | Space News, posted on YouTube March 31, 2015

Since their was no ice seen on the surface of ANY comet and the similarity's with asteroids, very much seems a common mechanism.

The Electric Comet!

Paper by real scientists from a real journal here:

The Chemical Composition of Comets—Emerging Taxonomies and Natal Heritage

More than 20 primary chemical species are now detected in bright comets. Measurements of nuclear spin ratios (in water, ammonia, and methane) and of isotopic ratios (D/H in water and HCN; 14N/15N in CN and HCN) have provided critical insights on factors affecting formation of the primary species.
 

Interesting! but more interesting'er

NASA’s Newly Arrived OSIRIS-REx Spacecraft Already Discovers Water on Asteroid

Recently analyzed data from NASA’s Origins, Spectral Interpretation, Resource Identification, Security-Regolith Explorer (OSIRIS-REx) mission has revealed water locked inside the clays that make up its scientific target, the asteroid Bennu.

Data obtained from the spacecraft’s two spectrometers, the OSIRIS-REx Visible and Infrared Spectrometer (OVIRS) and the OSIRIS-REx Thermal Emission Spectrometer (OTES), reveal the presence of molecules that contain oxygen and hydrogen atoms bonded together, known as “hydroxyls.” The team suspects that these hydroxyl groups exist globally across the asteroid in water-bearing clay minerals, meaning that at some point, Bennu’s rocky material interacted with water. While Bennu itself is too small to have ever hosted liquid water, the finding does indicate that liquid water was present at some time on Bennu’s parent body, a much larger asteroid.

Whats the difference between an asteroid, active asteroid and comet?

:jaw-dropp

What was the measured electric field at Bennu?

:rolleyes:
 
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Scientists identify water molecules on asteroids for the first time

Asteroids are DRY and ROCKY whilst Comets are fluffy dirtysnowballs!

Maybe not?

Same as on comets! Scientist struggle.

Water on the Sunlit moon? or...most rocky bodies!

The Electrochemistry of Comets by Dr. Franklin Anariba | Space News, posted on YouTube March 31, 2015

Since their was no ice seen on the surface of ANY comet and the similarity's with asteroids, very much seems a common mechanism.

The Electric Comet!

Talking ELECTROCHEMISTRY

Dark oxygen

Discovery

Chemical process


The hypothetical process described to make dark oxygen is known as seawater electrolysis. In this chemical process an electrical potential difference of just 1.5 V is enough to begin separating the hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis. The highest voltage observed during the expedition was 0.95 V; but the working hypothesis is that the seawater and rare metals in the deep ocean depths act as a chemical battery.[3]

What was the potential difference between the comet nucleus and the surrounding plasma again? Asking for a friend.
 
Please explain. Is there a lot of seawater on comets?

No, the question was, what is the potential difference between the comet and the surrounding plasma....voila Oxygen on comet 67P might not be ancient after all

Oxygen on comets might not date all the way back to the birth of the solar system.

Instead, interactions between water, particles streaming from the sun and grains of sand or rust on the comet’s surface could generate the gas. Those interactions could explain the surprising abundance of O2 detected in the fuzzy envelope of gas around comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko in 2015 (SN: 11/28/15, p. 6), researchers report May 8 in Nature Communications. Such reactions might also reveal how oxygen forms in other regions of space.

:whistling
 
No, the question was, what is the potential difference between the comet and the surrounding plasma....voila Oxygen on comet 67P might not be ancient after all

Well this must be wrong, of course, because they say:

Something similar could happen on comet 67P, they suggest. As the sun evaporates water from the comet’s surface, ultraviolet light could strip an electron from the water, giving it a positive charge.

Really! water! evaporating! hahahahahahahaha such silliness

And then there is much more to really criticise about that space news column, but who cares.
"fast-moving particles in the solar wind could shoot the ionized water back toward the comet’s surface" -- say what now?
"could collide with rust" -- somebody dropped some nails on the comet?
 
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Well this must be wrong, of course, because they say:



Really! water! evaporating! hahahahahahahaha such silliness

And then there is much more to really criticise about that space news column, but who cares.
"fast-moving particles in the solar wind could shoot the ionized water back toward the comet’s surface" -- say what now?
"could collide with rust" -- somebody dropped some nails on the comet?


funny you mob are! :dl:


tusenfem, is there a potential difference (electrical) between the nucleus and the solar plasma?


Dr. Franklin Anariba will update a general electrochemical model by exploring conditions in comets that are amenable to electrochemical processes. Particular attention will be given to recent observations of physical and chemical phenomena that point to a paradigm shift in the science of cometary bodies. He presented the first outline of this model at the EU2013 conference and returned for a reprise at EU2015.
.
utube



One wonders if the clay's in comets comes from salt water, after all our religion has them(comets) as bits of planets once upon a time.

Do you know much about PLASMA chemistry, tusenfem?
 
Well this must be wrong, of course, because they say:



Really! water! evaporating! hahahahahahahaha such silliness

And then there is much more to really criticise about that space news column, but who cares.
"fast-moving particles in the solar wind could shoot the ionized water back toward the comet’s surface" -- say what now?
"could collide with rust" -- somebody dropped some nails on the comet?


Just goes to show how silly the mainstream can really be.
 
Research team finds evidence of hydration on the asteroid Psyche

Institute-led team has confirmed hydroxyl molecules on the surface of the metallic asteroid Psyche. The presence of hydrated minerals suggests a complex history for Psyche, important context for the NASA spacecraft en route to this interesting asteroid orbiting the sun between Mars and Jupiter.

The Webb data points to hydroxyl and perhaps water on Psyche's surface.

If there were "ice" there would be "sublimation", it would then be a comet!

Wonder were all the "ice" on a comet is?
 
Not even wrong, as Wolfgang Pauli would say.

The Webb data points to hydroxyl and perhaps water on Psyche's surface.


"Our understanding of solar system evolution is closely tied to interpretations of asteroid composition, particularly the M-class asteroids that contain higher concentrations of metal," said Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian's Dr. Stephanie Jarmak, the paper's lead author, who conducted much of this research while at SwRI.

Apologies, surface water...
 
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If there were "ice" there would be "sublimation", it would then be a comet!

Ice sublimates on Mars. Last time I checked, Mars wasn't a comet.

Wonder were all the "ice" on a comet is?

Mostly sub-surface, as proven. And as already explained to you countless times. Here is a reasonably logical line of reasoning for that;

> No ice visible at the impact zone of the projectile that impacted Tempel 1. Thousands of tonnes of ice grains in the ejecta. Ergo, the ice was below the surface.

> Little ice seen on cliff faces on 67P, but ice seen after cliff collapses. Ergo, the ice was sub-surface.

> Not much ice visible on the surface of comet Hartley 2, but powerful CO2 jets were observed ejecting sizable chunks of the stuff. Ergo, the ice was being excavated from below the surface.

> Comet 17P/Holmes underwent a spectacular outburst back in the day. The coma was then observed spectroscopically. Ice was detected in the debris. Ergo, the ice was sub-surface.

> Et boring cetera.
 
tusenfem, is there a potential difference (electrical) between the nucleus and the solar plasma?

Doesn't really matter. The solar plasma is getting nowhere near the comet at highest activity. There is no mechanism that could produce water on a cometary surface in the quantities seen, in the time available.



Franklin Anariba is clueless. As I told him once. He might be competent at something (most people are) but he is clueless about plasma physics and astrophysics. Which is why his unpublished, impossible woo only exists on the website and YT channel of a mythology-based cult.


One wonders if the clay's in comets comes from salt water, after all our religion has them(comets) as bits of planets once upon a time.

Nobody sane thinks comets were ever parts of planets.

Do you know much about PLASMA chemistry, tusenfem?

More than you or Anariba, I daresay. Mind you, and no offence to Tusenfem, that would not be hard!
This reminds me of the authors who proposed some Rydberg process to explain the O2 detected at 67P. Failing to understand the quantities involved, among other things. However, at least they published their stuff in the peer-reviewed literature. Not sure how it got past peer-review, but that is by the by. And that meant that the paper could be replied to to point out the silliness of their suggestion. In the nicest possible terms, of course! And they then had to row back from their original proposal.
 
No, the question was, what is the potential difference between the comet and the surrounding plasma....voila Oxygen on comet 67P might not be ancient after all



:whistling

Whoops! I am going through the thread bass-ackwards. I already dealt with this silly claim in my previous post. Like I said, it was a non-starter, and the paper was replied to by the 67P team. Myself and Tusenfem had already discussed it on here, and decided it was bollocks highly unlikely. I even emailed Giapis and told him as much*. The arguments I put to him were the same ones used by the 67P team in their reply papers.

See this post;

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12970615&postcount=1078

And this one (among others);

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12352720&postcount=3298

* I even had to explain to him what 'impact parameter' meant in regards to the Alice detections!
 
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And then there is much more to really criticise about that space news column, but who cares.
"fast-moving particles in the solar wind could shoot the ionized water back toward the comet’s surface" -- say what now?
"could collide with rust" -- somebody dropped some nails on the comet?

And how are they getting 'ionized water' to shoot back to the nucleus, when the magnetic field is not even reaching the surface when the bulk of this O2 was detected? It really was a very silly paper. They obviously understand their own area of expertise well enough, but do not understand plasma physics, or the environment of comets. It should never have been written, and wouldn't have been if they had done a bit of research. How the Nature peer-reviewers let it through is anyone's guess. Still, MNRAS allowed some of Lerner's nonsense through, not to mention the rubbish proposed by Gupta about the universe being twice its accepted age!
 
And how are they getting 'ionized water' to shoot back to the nucleus, when the magnetic field is not even reaching the surface when the bulk of this O2 was detected? It really was a very silly paper. They obviously understand their own area of expertise well enough, but do not understand plasma physics, or the environment of comets. It should never have been written, and wouldn't have been if they had done a bit of research. How the Nature peer-reviewers let it through is anyone's guess. Still, MNRAS allowed some of Lerner's nonsense through, not to mention the rubbish proposed by Gupta about the universe being twice its accepted age!

The 1.09 μV m−1 field measured over the sunlit polar region is sufficient to provide an outward force on ionospheric H+ of 10.6 times that of gravity.
Earth’s ambipolar electrostatic field and its role in ion escape to space

The spatial scale this applies to is approximately one gyroradius, which we estimated to be around 340 km. The resulting electric field is 0.21 mV/m, which is significantly smaller than the expected field in the upstream solar wind, far away from the nucleus.
Indirect Observations of Electric Fields at Comet 67P

Quasineutrality requires that the electron and ion densities be the same, and under certain conditions an ambipolar electric field is required to achieve quasi-neutrality. We present the results of a test particle model of cometary ion pickup by the solar wind and a two-stream electron transport code and use these results to interpret the IES data. We also estimate the effects on the electron spectrum of a compression of the electron fluid parcel. The electrons detected by IES can have energies as high as about 100–200 eV near the comet on some occasions, in which case the hot electrons can significantly enhance ionization rates of neutrals via impact ionization.

Suprathermal electrons near the nucleus of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko at 3 AU: Model comparisons with Rosetta data

I'll see your magnetic field and raise you an electric field (PLASMA DOUBLE LAYER).

:D
 
Yeah, apart from the total lack of rock and discharges.

Meet Phaethon, a weird asteroid that thinks it's a comet—new research may explain what's going on

Yet these two space objects are not always as mutually exclusive as this would suggest. Let me introduce Phaethon, a "rock comet" that blurs the definitions between asteroid and comet, and let me tell you why it will be worth paying attention to this fascinating object in the coming years.

We used chips from a rare group of meteorites called the CM chondrites, which contain clays that are believed to be similar to Phaethon's composition.


Comets contain CLAYS. :D

Asteroids also have electric fields! :D

Cometary science is in turmoil. Basic questions. Whats the diff between a comets (Rock) and an Asteroids (Rock).
 
Is that two asteroids confirmed as comets? Any comets confirmed as asteroids?

One wonders why?
 
Oh and on jd116's skewwhiffed understanding of the diamagnetic cavity...
Interplanetary space is pervaded by the solar wind, a flow of electrically charged particles streaming from the Sun and carrying its magnetic field across the Solar System. But a comet pouring lots of gas into space obstructs the solar wind.
ESA

The AMPTE (Active Magnetospheric Particle Tracer Explorers) artificial comet experiment in 1984 created a temporary diamagnetic cavity (60 ​s long and 70 ​km in radius) by releasing 2 ​kg of Barium vapor in the solar wind (Bingham et al., 1991; Haerendel et al., 1986; Gurnett et al., 1986).

The cavity boundary in this case was formed by electron currents.

As Haerendel et al. (1986) describe, photoelectrons of the expanding barium gas are coupled to ions via a polarization electric field, which further accelerates the ions radially outward. The electron gas initially reaches a pressure balance with the solar wind magnetic field while ions continue to expand, resulting in an inward polarization electric field. Under these conditions, electrons form a current layer as they undergo ExB drift, leading to a shielding diamagnetic boundary.
Electron dynamics near diamagnetic regions of comet 67P/Churyumov- Gerasimenko

Oh, look a double layer! :D

So gas obstructing (ESA) and electric currents shielding diamagnetic boundary (Sol88)

People are free to believe which ever story they want!
 
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