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PISA scores out.

AlaskaBushPilot

Illuminator
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
4,341
Lost my internet for a while and am back on the incredible log-cabin phone line speed now at least, and found they have reported on the 2015 PISA scores finally.

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12

Schools and teachers, thereby our students, sit on the edges of their seats each year in anticipation of how well we do against the global competition. Not.

Singapore was first across the board: Math, Reading, and Science.

I was very surprised to see Common Core left us below average in math, our score falling by 11 points. That's perplexing, isn't it? We remained about the same in Reading and Science, so that's great we're only really falling further behind in one area.

We did the best in reading, 24th place. Hooray!

If we took 24th place in the sports Olympics... oh excuse me that would NEVER happen. We won't accept anything but tops in the world for sports. But in brains - meh.

A great strategy for global dominance in the 21st century.
 
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That's the TV-inspired crowning glory of our culture: the one-liner comeback. I come here for exactly that: the public school teacher response to the appalling state of their profession, given what we squander on education.

Yeah, we put out poor students but we can sure make a one-liner that another television watcher knows to laugh at. Or a trolling "zinger" we're supposed to be able to infer meaning from.

Our students, meaning our school, know exactly where they are and who their competition is. Ahead of Singapore in every subject for now.

But it's like sports. All you have to do is stop working and they overtake you. All we can do is study every day, and keep those bastards at bay.
 
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I see the US math score has fallen on both the last two sets of tri-annual PISA tests. It fell on the most recent NAEP tests too, so the decline in math proficiency is pretty clear.

The Common Core math drew the most criticism from parents along with the original disapproval from the most qualified member of the common core math standards committee, James Milgram of Stanford.

It was bizarre in demanding developmentally inappropriate concepts for the very youngest students but then lowering standards in the later years. They can't count to 11 until they know it is one unit of tens and one unit of ones. Obviously un-necessary to count to 11 but as Milgram pointed out to numerous states in professional testimony the claim standards in math were being raised is false and these scores are showing so.

They've fallen by 12 points since 2012 and 18 points since 2009. So hopefully we are now past the point of inflection and they'll fall only another three or four points in 2018 compared to now. The most damage has already been done and only a little more damage to be had.
 
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Lost my internet for a while and am back on the incredible log-cabin phone line speed now at least, and found they have reported on the 2015 PISA scores finally.

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12

Schools and teachers, thereby our students, sit on the edges of their seats each year in anticipation of how well we do against the global competition. Not.

Singapore was first across the board: Math, Reading, and Science.

I was very surprised to see Common Core left us below average in math, our score falling by 11 points. That's perplexing, isn't it? We remained about the same in Reading and Science, so that's great we're only really falling further behind in one area.

We did the best in reading, 24th place. Hooray!

If we took 24th place in the sports Olympics... oh excuse me that would NEVER happen. We won't accept anything but tops in the world for sports. But in brains - meh.

A great strategy for global dominance in the 21st century.

Tests are hugely imperfect way of gauging useful knowledge and skills gained in school. They're the best we have, but are still a rather poor predictors of how capable one is or how useful the skill set the kid obtained is.

Take math for example: up to nine in ten won't need more math in their lives than simple addition and subtraction and how to use a calculator. The one in ten that will should be able to obtain sufficient skills despite the inferior high school knowledge. It might take a bit more work later on, but it's well within what is doable.

PISA scores are useful to gauge how well do schools within different constituencies prepare kids to do on tests. They're a much poorer predictor of how well a country performs in high technology.

Don't believe me? Check Israeli scores.

McHrozni
 
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I'm always quite skeptical of judging education systems based purely on test scores. Many Asian school systems are merely test score factories and there's little emphasis on being able to apply that knowledge beyond the tests and/or softer skills.
 
I remain sceptical of any test-based system for comparing one system with another, particularly when the tests aren't the same for all those concerned. Don't forget that some of the Asian countries who always top these lists focus on very different things than we in the west do, and in particular, on passing exams.
 
Their test is much harder. It's in Chinese.

I always want to ask, "What's the right amount of education?"
"More" is not a good answer.
 
Lost my internet for a while and am back on the incredible log-cabin phone line speed now at least, and found they have reported on the 2015 PISA scores finally.

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12

Schools and teachers, thereby our students, sit on the edges of their seats each year in anticipation of how well we do against the global competition. Not.

Singapore was first across the board: Math, Reading, and Science.

I was very surprised to see Common Core left us below average in math, our score falling by 11 points. That's perplexing, isn't it? We remained about the same in Reading and Science, so that's great we're only really falling further behind in one area.

We did the best in reading, 24th place. Hooray!

If we took 24th place in the sports Olympics... oh excuse me that would NEVER happen. We won't accept anything but tops in the world for sports. But in brains - meh.

A great strategy for global dominance in the 21st century.


I wouldn't get upset about it for there is nothing that anyone can do about the situation. Like it, or not, PISA Scores and IQ are correlated and Americans generally have a lower-average IQ compared to kids from many Asian Countries or European Countries. The good new is that our white kids score as well as the Swiss and a bit better than Germany, so that means the teaching is good even if the blacks and hispanics drag down the averages. Also, Asian Americans score on par with Asians in other countries...again showing the teaching is good.

http://isteve.blogspot.in/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html
 
I remain sceptical of any test-based system for comparing one system with another, particularly when the tests aren't the same for all those concerned. Don't forget that some of the Asian countries who always top these lists focus on very different things than we in the west do, and in particular, on passing exams.

You have got to be kidding me! Ever heard of "No Child left behind" and all the high-stakes testing that it's generated?
 
If we took 24th place in the sports Olympics... oh excuse me that would NEVER happen. We won't accept anything but tops in the world for sports. But in brains - meh.

Actually, we suck at sports, too. Sure, our best are the best in the world, but our average kids are pretty pathetic.


On the subject of test scores, several people have said it isn't a very good measure, but I have to wonder what is better, and I have to wonder about the distribution of scores, rather than the average. If you took the top 1% of scores from each country, I wonder which countries would have the best scores. Would there be significant changes in the rankings?

My guess is that the US really is behind in academic achievement, and also in the real world accomplishments that are associated with it, but I don't know how to measure it.
 
Actually, we suck at sports, too. Sure, our best are the best in the world, but our average kids are pretty pathetic.


On the subject of test scores, several people have said it isn't a very good measure, but I have to wonder what is better, and I have to wonder about the distribution of scores, rather than the average. If you took the top 1% of scores from each country, I wonder which countries would have the best scores. Would there be significant changes in the rankings?
My guess is that the US really is behind in academic achievement, and also in the real world accomplishments that are associated with it, but I don't know how to measure it.

The rankings are the rankings and they hold to the 1%. I know what you are asking...you are wondering if our Elite can match their Elite. No...they can't. A generally smarter society (i.e., higher average IQ) will overwhelm with the weight of numbers.

So, Yes, the Asian Elite are smarter than the US Elite. However, you can beat the Asians, and I believe Germany has done so even though the average German IQ is not as high as the average Asian IQ. But you have to invest in "People" and do it for the long haul - and Germany has always been master of this Philosophy. And it's a Philosophy that starts at Kindergarten and continues through Post-Doc School. Really..it's the long haul.
 
I remain sceptical of any test-based system for comparing one system with another, particularly when the tests aren't the same for all those concerned. Don't forget that some of the Asian countries who always top these lists focus on very different things than we in the west do, and in particular, on passing exams.

The thing which come to mind to me is that I had nearly never a Multiple choice exams except at 1) some languages exams (only in part) 2) driving license.

But the way I understand it multiple choice is relied heavily on in the US.
In France what was relied heavily (and still is I think) is that you get a problem thrown at you, and you have to write a coherent text on how you solve it.

Half the note for the question was the result , and half was for giving a coherent reason on why and how.

e.g. You get a question like "Fred drew a triangle with the two indicated side a being 2 cm and b being 3cm, what is the length of c knowing the angle a-b is 90°". Answering squareroot 13 give you half point, but answering "Since the angle a-b is a right angle I can use the Pythagorean theorem - a^2+b^2=c^2 therefore solving for c , c= sqrt(a^2+b^2). Numerically c = sqrt(13)" which becomes more complicated as the problem and the school grade rises.

That is IMO a factor which helps people understand or force understanding better than a QCM.
 
Keep in mind that a lot of patents for the US are software patents, many of which would be rejected in other part of the world, so the number are slightly biased.

I'm sure that's not the only aberration on the list. There is no perfect way to do it, but it seems to me US scores at least decently well on indicators that matter.

It's not enough to bring about world domination, but it's enough to keep it in place for a very long time ... barring major upheaval, of course.

McHrozni
 
A great strategy for global dominance in the 21st century.

We might as well face it. They are just better than us.

Just blame the foreigners. That's in fashion.

In 2009's PISA, the United States got an average of 495 (better than 2015?), but Real Americans™ got like 502, while first-generation natives got 475 and second-generation ones got some 480.

I'm not impressed by countries that think math, science and language are all what matters are doing very well in math, science and language skill tests. I'm not surprised either by countries who let students who are wanting academically to fall back or out of the system, while other countries, like USA and Argentina, who wrongly think everybody is equal and has to be promoted forward no matter how they suck, are not surprisingly down in the table (not surprised but a little envious).
 
If I need someone to do math, I'll hire an Asian. He can work with the German guy I have doing the machining.
 
We did the best in reading, 24th place. Hooray!

If we took 24th place in the sports Olympics... oh excuse me that would NEVER happen. We won't accept anything but tops in the world for sports. But in brains - meh.


In some sports, we would have squeaked into the finals.
 
I see the US math score has fallen on both the last two sets of tri-annual PISA tests. It fell on the most recent NAEP tests too, so the decline in math proficiency is pretty clear.

The Common Core math drew the most criticism from parents along with the original disapproval from the most qualified member of the common core math standards committee, James Milgram of Stanford.

It was bizarre in demanding developmentally inappropriate concepts for the very youngest students but then lowering standards in the later years. They can't count to 11 until they know it is one unit of tens and one unit of ones. Obviously un-necessary to count to 11 but as Milgram pointed out to numerous states in professional testimony the claim standards in math were being raised is false and these scores are showing so.

They've fallen by 12 points since 2012 and 18 points since 2009. So hopefully we are now past the point of inflection and they'll fall only another three or four points in 2018 compared to now. The most damage has already been done and only a little more damage to be had.


When I was in 2nd grade, they told us about the ones and the tens units and the hundreds units and we peeked in the back of the book to see numbers with at least 8 zeroes!

More importantly they told us you could different numbers for each column, say, 8s instead of 10s. Then that was the last I heard of it until I got to computers in the 10th grade where they forced you to learn binary and hex by necessity.

They should have carved off students who "got it" for more advanced teachings. It's a sore point with some in the skeptic community that society would be much better served diverting just a fraction of the money spent making sure every last person can count change into advanced classes, but then those evil ******* elites don't need no stinking help, do they?
 
What i think is crazy about this entire "Comparative Testing" thing is that most people in the US still don't "get it". O mean, most people think if we had better teachers, or longer school years, or spent more money, or tested more, or....something, then our kids would be relatively smarter. Wrong..Just Wrong. I Been there teaching in the trenches and seen it, Got the Medals and the Wounds.

The 2 Biggest Factors...and let me stop and highlight this for everyone,

The 2 Biggest Factors for academic success are:

1. The Natural Intelligence of the Child (Yes...IQ Matters)

2. The Family Environment where the Child is properly socialized and encouraged to value education.


Do you see it? Do You see the Pattern?

If not, then let's put it real crude: You can't make a Silk Purse out of A Sow's Ear. And every year it expected that Schools should somehow be "Magic Factories" where they take in sub-socialized and Low IQ kids and turn them into Einstein's.

That's Wishful Thinking: it is the Stuff of Hollywood Movie Fantasy.

Reality will not be cheated or fantasized away.

So...if want to make kids smarter, then start at home.


And if anyone thinks I am wrong, then I challenge you to go Teach and see for yourselves. At first, i would recommend that you Substitute Teach for awhile because there is virtually no way you get a job in a nice school as a new teacher unless you've got connections. So, start out by subbing for some middle-class white and asian kids until you get the permanent job and are whisked off to teaching in some poor school chocked full of the low-IQ and sub-socialized kids. The difference in kids will astound you. PISA Number just don't express the intellectual chasm with any justice.
 
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I'm sorry, but I only see a font too large.

Dud...your from Argentina and I bet you are angry (you said you were envious) about the PISA Scores. Now...some of my best friends in college were from BA, and they told me what Argentina was like years ago - and they were some very-smart guys. So it doesn't surprise me that Argentina didn't score so well, and it shouldn't surprise you.

Gawd I remember these guys...they were were the only guys I ever new that had a "Driver" - to drive them around BA. What's even more strange is that their Driver (and his co-driver) carried an UZI. Such is the life of a son of an Argentine Oil Executive in the 1980s.
 
Dud[e]...you[']r[e] from Argentina and I bet you are angry (you said you were envious) about the PISA Scores. Now...some of my best friends in college were from BA, and they told me what Argentina was like years ago - and they were some very-smart guys. So it doesn't surprise me that Argentina didn't score so well, and it shouldn't surprise you.

Gawd I remember these guys...they were were the only guys I ever [k]new that had a "Driver" - to drive them around BA. What's even more strange is that their Driver (and his co-driver) carried an UZI. Such is the life of a son of an Argentine Oil Executive in the 1980s.

7/10 - Could do better, if time was taken to check what was written.

;)
 
Dud...your from Argentina and I bet you are angry (you said you were envious) about the PISA Scores. Now...some of my best friends in college were from BA, and they told me what Argentina was like years ago - and they were some very-smart guys. So it doesn't surprise me that Argentina didn't score so well, and it shouldn't surprise you.

Gawd I remember these guys...they were were the only guys I ever new that had a "Driver" - to drive them around BA. What's even more strange is that their Driver (and his co-driver) carried an UZI. Such is the life of a son of an Argentine Oil Executive in the 1980s.

You always inventing stories about what others feel and think. How charming.

I just wanted to say that you thought your argument was better laid out by adding that monstrous font size when in fact your argument is confusing even with a normal font size. But no surprise in you taking everything as a personal attack.

But, you wrote what you wrote so I'm forced to comment on that:

Go to those PISA "Scores" and look up Buenos Aires in the list. I know which 60 schools were tested in BA and what they are, I see the scores and compare with the whole United States' ... and I pity the United States. It's that simple. You can wave your chauvinistic hand on that, but the figures are there, and they're clear. That's the awful truth where your little nationalist Trumpian tour de force of a reply finally led us.

Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Edited for compliance with rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.
 
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You always inventing stories about what others feel and think. How charming.

I just wanted to say that you thought your argument was better laid out by adding that monstrous font size when in fact your argument is confusing even with a normal font size. But no surprise in you taking everything as a personal attack.

But, you wrote what you wrote so I'm forced to comment on that:

Go to those PISA "Scores" and look up Buenos Aires in the list. I know which 60 schools were tested in BA and what they are, I see the scores and compare with the whole United States' ... and I pity the United States. It's that simple. You can wave your chauvinistic hand on that, but the figures are there, and they're clear. That's the awful truth where your little nationalist Trumpian tour de force of a reply finally led us.

Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Moderated text redacted.

I looked at the 2012 PISA scores which are more representative of Argentina and it appears Argentina has some pretty dull children.

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf
 
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I looked at the 2012 PISA scores which are more representative of Argentina and it appears Argentina has some pretty dull children.

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf

Great that you are not denying you made up that story of you going to college and having Argentine friends there. Neither you're denying that I figured out the level of mediocrity in the USA departing from almost equal scores from local schools I know. And great that you tacitly confessed that you have no personal qualities to contribute to this discussion, so you show those of your country, even though the mediocre ones.

About your competition regarding who is the most mediocre country, you certainly win: PISA shows the USA gets there second when competing in Argentine in mediocrity. But don't worry, the USA will get there soon.

Because you cited data from 2012 when the USA got 492 and Argentina 397. In 2015 USA got 488 and Argentina got 422 (Buenos Aires, 469). It looks like you know you would be highlighting how the US got worse and Argentina better in 2015's scores if you did differently.

And by use of rule of three, something that you may have learnt in the highest level of education you really reached, in PISA 2024 Argentina is surpassing the USA, or the other way around, you got USA winning the race for mediocrity.

And it sounds logical. I think you can get there by the end of the second presidency of Trump. The whole country has show strong signs it's set on this.
 
Great that you are not denying you made up that story of you going to college and having Argentine friends there. Neither you're denying that I figured out the level of mediocrity in the USA departing from almost equal scores from local schools I know. And great that you tacitly confessed that you have no personal qualities to contribute to this discussion, so you show those of your country, even though the mediocre ones.

About your competition regarding who is the most mediocre country, you certainly win: PISA shows the USA gets there second when competing in Argentine in mediocrity. But don't worry, the USA will get there soon.

Because you cited data from 2012 when the USA got 492 and Argentina 397. In 2015 USA got 488 and Argentina got 422 (Buenos Aires, 469). It looks like you know you would be highlighting how the US got worse and Argentina better in 2015's scores if you did differently.
And by use of rule of three, something that you may have learnt in the highest level of education you really reached, in PISA 2024 Argentina is surpassing the USA, or the other way around, you got USA winning the race for mediocrity.

And it sounds logical. I think you can get there by the end of the second presidency of Trump. The whole country has show strong signs it's set on this.

Argentina cheated in 2015, so the results were dismissed by the OECD.

https://panampost.com/raquel-garcia...m-global-education-ranking-chile-leads-latam/

Chile is now the #1 Latin American Country with a Mean of 447.

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf
 
Number of patents filed is a useful measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Intellectual_Property_Indicators

I really don't see US as being particularly bad in this regard. It's not at the top, but it is among the top scorers in most categories.

McHrozni
We are not comparing apples and apples here, the US patent system allows both software patents and business process patents which are not considered in most other Intellectual Property systems to be unique enough in terms of technological effect to be considered at all. If you remove these patents from the figures then the US moves to a much lower score.
 
Rather than blaming common core we might want to consider the evidence,

https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_3f.asp
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_4f.asp
https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_5e.asp

Asian and White US students perform above the OECD averages, while Hispanics and particularly Black students dramatically below (the top to bottom group disparities are 80-98 points!). Any explanation for the relatively poor national performance that fails to take these dramatic disparities into account is a non-starter.
 
Rather than blaming common core we might want to consider the evidence...
That institutional racism is alive and well in the US?

the top to bottom group disparities are 80-98 points!
How to lie with statistics, create a scary number and hope nobody puts it in context! Less than +-10% between top and bottom is not what I would call 'dramatic'.

Any explanation for the relatively poor national performance that fails to take these dramatic disparities into account is a non-starter.
Any explanation that attempts to pin the blame on skin color is a non-starter.
 
You have got to be kidding me! Ever heard of "No Child left behind" and all the high-stakes testing that it's generated?
You're forgetting what a difference in scale there is between the US and some of these test based education countries. And the length of time the testing has been emphasized.
 
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