[Split Thread] Maori Creationism in Science lessons

[Roboramma]

Okay, fine whatever you got me.

Would it help if you mentally substitute a dull "I agree" for the contentious post?

That wouldn't only help, it would solve the entire issue on my side.

Sometimes I can be annoyingly adamant about apparently minor points. I recall once arguing with a friend of mine for 2 hours until I finally got annoyed and said, "look, I actually know what you're trying to say, which is this...", then summed up his view, and he agreed that it was his view. I finished with: "And I agree with all of that."
"Then what's your problem?!" he replied.
"My problem is it's not what you actually did say! And the thing you did say is wrong!"

I think he was understandably annoyed.

 

[Paul2]

They may be what you're talking about, and what Dawkins and Coyne are talking about, but unless it can be demonstrated that they are actually impinging on science education, they don't need to be talked about.

I can’t see why one can’t talk about the potential for a problem, especially given a definable route (the holistic nature of MM).

This is a discussion forum designed for people to talk about things.

 

[theprestige]

They may be what you're talking about, and what Dawkins and Coyne are talking about, but unless it can be demonstrated that they are actually impinging on science education, they don't need to be talked about.

I for one would like to normalize needing to talk about things *before* they start impinging on science education. That way, if it turns out they *could* impinge on science education, we have a chance of noticing and preventing the harm, rather than having to try to remedy the harm after it has occurred.

 

[ynot]

I for one would like to normalize needing to talk about things *before* they start impinging on science education. That way, if it turns out they *could* impinge on science education, we have a chance of noticing and preventing the harm, rather than having to try to remedy the harm after it has occurred.

Prevention is better than cure.

 

[Mike Helland]

This is a discussion forum designed for people to talk about things.

So, like.. what's actually being discussed?

And what's the big idea, anyways?

That kids can only be taught things that we believe are true, and they should trust what they are taught is true, and they should reject the ideas that we reject?

That's no way to prepare a person for a real world. And it's basically the classic human folly that whatever you believe is right, and the world will be a better place is everyone agrees with you.

Objectively, being a xenophobe is worse than being a xenophile. And being a critical thinker is better than being able to recite a desired answer.

 

[Paul2]

So, like.. what's actually being discussed?

And what's the big idea, anyways?

That kids can only be taught things that we believe are true, and they should trust what they are taught is true, and they should reject the ideas that we reject?

While it doesn't happen much, the best thing would be to teach kids how to figure out what is true.

That's no way to prepare a person for a real world. And it's basically the classic human folly that whatever you believe is right, and the world will be a better place is everyone agrees with you.

It's pretty important to teach kids what our best knowledge is, so they can benefit from it, expand on it, and change it when needed.

Objectively, being a xenophobe is worse than being a xenophile. And being a critical thinker is better than being able to recite a desired answer.

Both critical thinking and reciting correct answers are important.

 

[Darat]

The topic of the thread is not each other so drop the personalisation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Graham2001]

This paper, which is reader access only on the website of Science magazine seems to be the latest broadside in the push to braid 'Indigenous' and 'Western' Science, the authors are from New Zealand the country that has pioneered this movement.


Here is the abstract in full.

Conflict has grown around Indigenous knowledge in education policy. There has been growing acceptance of the value of Indigenous knowledge for promoting ecological resilience, transformational approaches in stewardship, and cultural renewal within global fora such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. However, despite increasing acceptance at a strategic high level in science-informed policy, there is often a lack of wider acceptance, application, and policy protections of Indigenous knowledge transmission in more local settings, including opposition by some scientists. We argue that Indigenous knowledge can complement and enhance science teachings, benefitting students and society in a time of considerable global challenges. We do not argue that Indigenous knowledge should usurp the role of, or be called, science. But to step from “not science” to “therefore not as (or at all) valuable and worthy of learning” is a non sequitur, based on personal values and not a scientifically defensible position.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi9606

 

[The Atheist]

This paper, which is reader access only on the website of Science magazine seems to be the latest broadside in the push to braid 'Indigenous' and 'Western' Science, the authors are from New Zealand the country that has pioneered this movement.

Thanks - I'm going to unpack that a bit:

There has been growing acceptance of the value of Indigenous knowledge for promoting ecological resilience, transformational approaches in stewardship, and cultural renewal within global fora such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Pure drivel, and cynically so.

The IPCC indeed respects Indigenous and Local Knowledge (ILK) because it makes a lot of sense to listen to farmers and people who work the land. That is what the IPCC says when it discusses the point: https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-7/

What they don't do is listen to mumbo-jumbo just-so stories passed on around the campfire. Maori had no thought of preserving the environment or even their food source, being responsible for the denuding of our forests and extinction of their important food source in moa.

We know what happens when Maori are given the opportunity to lead conservation efforts: kelp barrens.

Or maybe the bloke who's just been allowed to sue oil companies for failing to protect Maori from climate change? You know, Mike Smith, most famous for cutting down a tree.

We argue that Indigenous knowledge can complement and enhance science teachings, benefitting students and society in a time of considerable global challenges.

Of, course, there's no mention of what that knowledge is in relation to maori.

We do not argue that Indigenous knowledge should usurp the role of, or be called, science. But to step from “not science” to “therefore not as (or at all) valuable and worthy of learning” is a non sequitur, based on personal values and not a scientifically defensible position.

How quaint to point at a logical fallacy while using one themselves. Nobody is saying that ILK is useless or not worth knowing - what isn't worth knowing is the baloney spouted by people like Mike King and Hone Harawira, two career criminals with a personal agenda.

If it's something worth knowing, then it can be backed up with reason. That's now what Maori are asking for.

 

[ynot]

Thanks - I'm going to unpack that a bit:



Pure drivel, and cynically so.

The IPCC indeed respects Indigenous and Local Knowledge (ILK) because it makes a lot of sense to listen to farmers and people who work the land. That is what the IPCC says when it discusses the point: https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-7/

What they don't do is listen to mumbo-jumbo just-so stories passed on around the campfire. Maori had no thought of preserving the environment or even their food source, being responsible for the denuding of our forests and extinction of their important food source in moa.

We know what happens when Maori are given the opportunity to lead conservation efforts: kelp barrens.

Or maybe the bloke who's just been allowed to sue oil companies for failing to protect Maori from climate change? You know, Mike Smith, most famous for cutting down a tree.



Of, course, there's no mention of what that knowledge is in relation to maori.



How quaint to point at a logical fallacy while using one themselves. Nobody is saying that ILK is useless or not worth knowing - what isn't worth knowing is the baloney spouted by people like Mike King and Hone Harawira, two career criminals with a personal agenda.

If it's something worth knowing, then it can be backed up with reason. That's now what Maori are asking for.

I assume you meant not?

 

[The Atheist]

I assume you meant not?

Yes - good spot. Past edit time, unfortunately.

 

[Graham2001]

Another paper to the effect that Maori Cultural Beliefs are in fact 'Better than Science'...

We are calling for discussions based on respectful relations or ‘mana ōrite’ between science and Māori knowledge. Greater understandings of the history and philosophy of both science and Māori education are necessary in order to understand the call for mana ōrite as ‘time up’ for the invalid denigration of Māori knowledge.

https://pesaagora.com/access-vol-44...elations-between-science-and-maori-knowledge/

 

[The Atheist]

Another paper to the effect that Maori Cultural Beliefs are in fact 'Better than Science'...

Way to go AUT!

Employers already view AUT science and engineering degrees as second-rate, and with this now added to science course, that perception will only grow:

Practicing scientists require an understanding of how science influences and is influenced by society. Māori knowledge (mātauranga) and practice (tikanga) are crucial to this understanding and thus underpin our social license to practice. In Aotearoa-New Zealand, scientists must be able to work with multiple knowledge traditions. In this course, students are provided with knowledge and skills to engage with Māori communities by understanding mātauranga and tikanga Māori in the context of scientific education and research.

Bolding mine.

Absolutely hilarious.

 

[The Atheist]

https://pesaagora.com/access-vol-44...elations-between-science-and-maori-knowledge/

That piece is comedy gold!

How about this doozy?

Views of non-Māori/Pasifika academic and teaching staff in the school range widely, from those who are active allies, to those with entrenched oppositional beliefs to the effect that science is a-contextual and therefore a-cultural. This latter view holds that science is ‘pure’ knowledge and not responsible for social problems. Of course ‘science’ is not directly responsible for social problems, but as ethical science educators we cannot ignore inequities in our outcomes.

To paraphrase: Even though we know the scientists are correct we're going to go ahead with this nonsense because reasons.

You couldn't conceivably write this crap.

Oh, wait, someone did!

But so far as we know, no other culture except the modern Western culture, influenced by science, separates facts from values. Māori (and Indigenous) ethical concepts are both facts and values at the same time.

That's it, I'm going digging. North Island is a fish, ok, so if I dig down far enough I will corner the world market on fish oil!

I can see AUT's continuing fall down world rankings speeding up a lot from here on.

 

[arthwollipot]

Another paper to the effect that Maori Cultural Beliefs are in fact 'Better than Science'...

Here we go again.

I read it, and the paper says nothing of the sort.

 

[jt512]

Another paper to the effect that Maori Cultural Beliefs are in fact 'Better than Science'...

https://pesaagora.com/access-vol-44...elations-between-science-and-maori-knowledge/

Here we go again.

I read it, and the paper says nothing of the sort.

The paper says:

A critical aspect of the ‘pure knowledge’ claim of science originates in the fact/value dichotomy where, in the 18th century, the bifurcation of fact from value was used to separate science (fact) from literature (fiction), in the process freeing science from ethical responsibility for its effects (Proctor, 1991; Putnam, 2004; Richardson, 1990). This move allowed science to claim control of truth. Science is extremely specialist, so each scientist has a small domain of expertise, which helps dilute the ethical significance of their work. But so far as we know, no other culture except the modern Western culture, influenced by science, separates facts from values. Māori (and Indigenous) ethical concepts are both facts and values at the same time. This means that truth according to Māori (Indigenous) worldviews is both factual and ethically value-laden. This is one way to explain why Māori knowledge is not science.​

In other words, Māori knowledge is superior to scientific knowledge because Māori knowledge comprises not only facts, but values, which scientific knowledge lacks.

 

[arthwollipot]

You know what? That paragraph doesn't say anything like "Maōri Cultural Beliefs are better than science."

And here's another thing that the paper says:

The concept of ‘mana ōrite’ (equal mana) is a useful rendering in te reo Māori (the Māori language) of what we mean by ‘respectful relations’ between science and Mātauranga Māori. A call for equal mana is a call for the ending of the denigration of Māori knowledge in mainstream discourses. Knowledge of those discourses, as well as of the history and philosophy of science, makes it clear why we might want to talk about ending the disrespect of Māori knowledge (Stewart, 2023). But as a result of the specialist nature of science, few if any scientists have even a basic working knowledge of either the philosophy of science or of Māori knowledge. Hence many scientists display intensely negative reactions to any suggestion that Māori knowledge is of any scientific value. The debate has been cast as a simplistic, yes-no question: Is Māori knowledge science? But the wide brief of both science and Māori knowledge make this question meaningless: a provocation or conundrum, not a question with an answer in the ‘scientific’ sense (Stewart, 2019).

(bold added by me).

 

[Roboramma]

Here we go again.

I read it, and the paper says nothing of the sort.

Yeah. Instead it's all just vibes without saying anything concrete or specific. What is Maori Knowledge? You won't find out here. It's possible to interpret what they are saying as meaning nothing at all. It's also possible to interpret it as meaning what Graham2001 thinks, but the authors are careful not to actually say anything specific enough that they can be called out on. Do they actually intend the meaning that Graham2001 reads? I agree that this isn't clear, but it's also not at all clear what they mean.

Reading the thing I just found way too much vagueness. There's a little section about how some students of professors who disagreed with their views think those professors' classes have a racist environment. There's no actual mention of anything specific that creates a racist environment, but a vague allegation gives the right vibes, I guess.

 

[arthwollipot]

What is Maori Knowledge? You won't find out here.

The link for that is earlier in the thread.

 

[The Atheist]

You know what? That paragraph doesn't say anything like "Maōri Cultural Beliefs are better than science."

Well, it kinda does, by inference at the very least.

I bolded the important piece in my quote above. Whatever knowledge is held must be viewed through the lens of Mātauranga Māori. If you're a scientist and come up with something that does not fit within the scope of Mātauranga Māori, or offends members of the Tangata Whenua, you can throw it in the bin.

Case in point: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-...und-in-antarctica-to-fires-set-by-early-maori

Mātauranga Māori should hold the same place in science as Morris Dancing and the Rainbow Serpent.

 

[8enotto]

When mythology and traditional stories replace any real research and study the problem isn't the quality of the science.

But if sciences could just bypass or ignore traditional religion without insulting it, there shouldn't be a problem with the indigenous teachers.
What I suspect is some shaman of sorts got into the higher realms of public schools and keeps sticking his traditional toes under where he knows others will step.

The old Mexican religious beliefs are known and documented but nobody cares that it's treated as ancient mythology. As it should be. The rain god has been made obsolete.

 

[arthwollipot]

When mythology and traditional stories replace any real research and study the problem isn't the quality of the science.

That's not what's happening here.

But if sciences could just bypass or ignore traditional religion without insulting it, there shouldn't be a problem with the indigenous teachers.
What I suspect is some shaman of sorts got into the higher realms of public schools and keeps sticking his traditional toes under where he knows others will step.

Again, critics are conflating Mātauranga Māori with science, where literally every published article about it says that Mātauranga Māori and science are separate but compatible.

 

[jt512]

When mythology and traditional stories replace any real research and study the problem isn't the quality of the science.

That's not what's happening here.

MM may not be replacing science in New Zealand, but it is displacing it in education, both in K–12 and university. This will devastate science in the country. If the MM advocates fully implement their vision, it will become impossible to get the education in science in New Zealand necessary to become a successful scientist. Meanwhile, university science faculty will leave the country en masse because there won't be qualified grad students or postdocs in the country to staff their labs. Science in New Zealand will for all intents and purposes dry up.

 

[Roboramma]

The link for that is earlier in the thread.

That's fine. The point, that the linked paper is vague and not really saying anything, stands.

 

[arthwollipot]

MM may not be replacing science in New Zealand, but it is displacing it in education, both in K–12 and university. This will devastate science in the country. If the MM advocates fully implement their vision, it will become impossible to get the education in science in New Zealand necessary to become a successful scientist. Meanwhile, university science faculty will leave the country en masse because there won't be qualified grad students or postdocs in the country to staff their labs. Science in New Zealand will for all intents and purposes dry up.

Oooh, disaster scenario! Come on. This is a textbook cookie-cutter slippery slope. Of course it's not going to be impossible to get a science education. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[pipelineaudio]

This is the same crap that ended up with Hawaiians marching against their own telescopes.

The first country to light up their capitol with electric lights gets regressed back to the stone age by SJWs.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

This is the same crap that ended up with Hawaiians marching against their own telescopes.

The first country to light up their capitol with electric lights gets regressed back to the stone age by SJWs.

Now, that is grade A bovine excrement right there. Even more stupid than the people being talked about in this thread more generally.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Not sure what you mean, are you denying this is what happened? Did you see what happened when they went full "vaccines are colonialism"?

 

[The Atheist]

Not sure what you mean, are you denying this is what happened? Did you see what happened when they went full "vaccines are colonialism"?

Samoa sure as hell did.

80 dead kids.

 

[lionking]

Not sure what you mean, are you denying this is what happened? Did you see what happened when they went full "vaccines are colonialism"?

Don’t expect a response.

 

[smartcooky]

MM may not be replacing science in New Zealand, but it is displacing it in education, both in K–12 and university. This will devastate science in the country. If the MM advocates fully implement their vision, it will become impossible to get the education in science in New Zealand necessary to become a successful scientist. Meanwhile, university science faculty will leave the country en masse because there won't be qualified grad students or postdocs in the country to staff their labs. Science in New Zealand will for all intents and purposes dry up.

Indeed. I have had advocates of MM (school teachers actually) telling me that subjects like physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology etc, the core subjects of any science learning, are only "white man's science", and that no person can get a "true" understanding of the world unless they learn about MM. When I laughed at them, they inferred that I must be a racist. These are people who are teaching our kids, and they believe this crap.

The fact is that MM is a bunch of quasi-religious horse-**** - it is no different from any other theological subject. It has NO basis in fact, and therefore, NO place in science. The core tenet of science is the scientific principle in relation to scientific thinking..

Empiricism
Skepticism
Objectivity
Examination/Experimentation

MM fails at every step. It could be taught as part of religious studies along with all the other fairy stories such as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, or Greek and Roman mythology etc, but it is not, and never will be a science.
‎
‎

 

[jt512]

Oooh, disaster scenario! Come on. This is a textbook cookie-cutter slippery slope. Of course it's not going to be impossible to get a science education. Don't be ridiculous.

Yes, it will be impossible to get a good science education in New Zealand. How could it be otherwise, when part of the science curriculum has been replaced by folklore? Moreover, it will be difficult for students from New Zealand to get into foreign science programs because they will not be able to compete with students from countries that didn't waste their science students' time learning folklore. Yes, there will be an exodus of academic scientists from New Zealand, because they won't be able to find qualified grad students and postdocs in New Zealand.

 

[The Atheist]

Yes, it will be impossible to get a good science education in New Zealand.

Note that this has only happened at one second-rate university, so blanket statements including all of NZ are wrong. I don't see much support at our top-tier universities for it.

AUT has always been the home of dead-beat uber-woke. In Auckland, we have three "universities" that were formerly trade schools: AUT, MIT (yes, really) and Unitech.

Employers generally treat hard science degrees from those institutions with a grain of salt, so in the real world it's not that big a deal, no matter how wrong it is.

This is AUT's crowning achievement to date: (it's actually pretty cool)

 

[smartcooky]

Note that this has only happened at one second-rate university, so blanket statements including all of NZ are wrong. I don't see much support at our top-tier universities for it.

AUT has always been the home of dead-beat uber-woke. In Auckland, we have three "universities" that were formerly trade schools: AUT, MIT (yes, really) and Unitech.

Employers generally treat hard science degrees from those institutions with a grain of salt, so in the real world it's not that big a deal, no matter how wrong it is.

This is AUT's crowning achievement to date: (it's actually pretty cool)

The problem is that it is being taught in schools as part of the Science curriculum. Kids are being indoctrinated at an early age that this gobbledygook is a valid part of science when in fact it is not. It is culture and religion, and it belongs in History teaching. Kids are wasting valuable educational time learning stuff at school which has absolutely no practical application in real life. That will have downstream effects on their learning when they come to real universities that don't include this bollocks.

 

[8enotto]

Then parents and family need to step up. One area is stopping the derails and the other is making sure thier kids get real science made available to them meanwhile. Sciences that apply in the real world job market.

My son has a little library of his own. He had used it a lot in school already. Now he uses online more.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yes, it will be impossible to get a good science education in New Zealand. How could it be otherwise, when part of the science curriculum has been replaced by folklore?

You don't even have to guess. Hawaii should be leading the world, or at least the country, in tropical marine biology and other tropical ocean topics, but no, because of this "science is colonialism" the prime research spots in Hawaii are now run by University of Minnesota, which to be fair are awesome, but once upon a time, this iconic spot, across the street from the Makai Research Pier, where the original Magnum PI's TC's Island Hopper chopper was always parked, was run by UH...Not anymore

Science bad, say the SJWs, Science is mind colonization

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh how quaint! I haven't heard the term "SJW" in ages. Ahh, the nostalgia.

 

[smartcooky]

Oh how quaint! I haven't heard the term "SJW" in ages. Ahh, the nostalgia.

Dodging the addressing of the actual substance of the post is noted.

 

[arthwollipot]

Dodging the addressing of the actual substance of the post is noted.

I replied to the part of the post that I intended to reply to.

 

[smartcooky]

I replied to the part of the post that I intended to reply to.

OK, so you're sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the rest doesn't exist? How very skeptic of you!