JREF Employees..."Leaking" Challenge Information?

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy! In this thread about the Million Dollar Challenge claim of "Psychic Samurai" aka "The Professor", The Professor either asks a rhetorical question or suggests that employees of the JREF are "leaking" information. I responded to it, but the thread in question is just supposed to be about his MDC claim itself. Therefore, I post it here to continue the discussion in the correct place.

Would it give anyone additional insight into the JREF if you found out that the JREF was "Leaking" information to members of the Forum? I'm not talking about blatantly printing personal Emails before they've even received the application, that's just too obvious. No, I'm talking about "LEAKING" information to someone here deliberately.
Would that affect how you see my challenge?

Not really. Are you claiming that an official representative of the JREF is doing this? If so, who, to whom, and how? And what evidence do you have that this is happening?

Also, I don't think it would matter. I call your attention to Rule 4 of the Application:

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the setup, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.

In other words, no part of the process is confidential; therefore, there's nothing to leak.

Of course, this does not give JREF or any of its official representatives (to whit: Jeff Wagg and RemieV) the right to misrepresent, or outright lie about, any of the information that you have sent regarding your claim. Although I am not sure if you are claiming or implying that this is happening...are you?

Be advised that if you make this claim -- especially without evidence -- someone is bound to suggest that you are attempting to set yourself up a preemptive "out". "Someone leaked my information, therefore the test was unfair!"

I'd have to state, though, that anyone suggesting this should remember this: it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether information is "leaked", because no part of the process is confidential (according to Rule 4). Ultimately, all that matters is that a) the JREF agrees that your claim is acceptable (that is, testable), and b) that you and the JREF are in clear agreement as to what will constitute a demonstration, what will constitute success, and what will constitute failure.

BTW... Thank you Jackalgirl ... You have proven my point. There ARE some open minded folks on this forum. I will try to give as much info as I can provided there are no LEAKS or misrepresentations of my statements.

I'm sure there will be various people who will attempt to distort what you say by "selective reading", misquotation, or whatever. It always happens. However, the beauty of the Forum is that your own posted words will be here for reference. As long as you post clearly, unambiguously, and concisely, I don't think there will be any problems in the long run.

[summary]
And then I went on to encourage him to post the details of his claim.
[/summary]

 

[Czarcasm]

I am curious as to what aspects his claim for the MDC The Professor thinks should be kept secret from the rest of us. How does one "leak" an open claim?

 

[Cuddles]

As far as I can tell, the only person who even has any information to "leak" is The Professor himself. RemieV has said in that thread that no application has been recieved yet. How can anyone leak anything if they don't have anything to leak?

Of course, as JackalGirl points out, the entire process is made public anyway, so it really isn't possible for either side to leak anything.

 

[The Professor]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

 

[Cuddles]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

Once again, the entire process of application, discussion and testing it made public. It is not possible to leak something that was not private to begin with.

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF

Are you calling them liars? That's not really the best way to get them, or anyone else, to take you seriously, is it?

....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

You mean apart from you posting around the internet yourself?

 

[Garrette]

In the original thread, Slim (The Professor) makes several accusations about JREF posters calling him a liar. This is his latest such post.

Slim, I re read the thread. No one called you a liar. People asked you questions; when you provided no answers they speculated and admitted to speculated (though they used different words).

I'll make you happy, though, so you can tell the magiccafe that you were mistreated:

I am calling you a liar now for saying that you have been called a liar in that thread. Prove me wrong and make me retract, or accept the label.

 

[Doubt]

How do you leak information that is not confidential in the first place?

 

[Garrette]

How do you leak information that is not confidential in the first place?

Keep it in a mind too open.

 

[Bandersnatch]

Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

You mentioned before that it was sent certified mail, is there a tracking number you can use to verify that they've received it?

 

[steenkh]

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

From your own post:

I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it.

This seems to be a likely source. If anybody are leaking, you are the one.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

Translation: When I fail the challenge (and I will), I can claim it was because of the negative vibrations created by the leak.

 

[Myriad]

The Professor, if by any chance you're referring to my post on the thread in the MDC forum, I assure you no one leaked information to me. Do a Google search for "Lake Helen Florida Halloween Paranormal" (all obviously suggested by the information from the podcast) and you'll quickly find the links I posted and others like them.

Your own statements in the thread that the EVENT can only happen once per year and only at one specific PLACE made The Devil's Chair the most obvious possibility. Contacting George P. Colby by seance ran a very distant second due to no specific association with Halloween and being more associated with Cassadaga than Lake Helen. (My first thought for a paranormal event associated with Halloween and a specific place, naturally, was Houdini's grave, but I knew that was not in Florida.)

However, it appears that once the thread had been moved to the MDC Challenge forum, such speculation on my part (while perhaps not strictly against the rules) was out of place. I apologize to you and to the JREF for posting it inappropriately. I certainly had, and have, no wish to distract from the important matter at hand.

On the other hand, speaking now in general and even if I guessed wrong and am not the one who posted the "leaked" information -- when you publicly issue hints about a paranormal event to people for whom investigating paranormal claims is a hobby, expect some investigation to occur!

I look forward to the revelation of your actual claim, and to seeing the Challenge carried out.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Loss Leader]

Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

TP, allow me to assume the following: 1) you sent information to the JREF which could not be guessed at otherwise; 2) the JREF shared that information with its "friends" before making it widely available to the public.

What ethic would that violate? How would it be unethical? What rule of conduct would the JREF have ignored?

 

[Cuddles]

TP, allow me to assume the following: 1) you sent information to the JREF which could not be guessed at otherwise; 2) the JREF shared that information with its "friends" before making it widely available to the public.

What ethic would that violate? How would it be unethical? What rule of conduct would the JREF have ignored?

I don't think you've got the assumptions quite right. In this case, it seems The Professor is claiming:
1) you sent information to the JREF which could not be guessed at otherwise;
2) you sent that information to lots of other people, including posting about it on various public internet sites;
3) the JREF also told a few people about it before making it publically available on one of the sites that The Professor has already posted it to.

Of course, even that's not actually reality, which is more like:
1) you sent information to the JREF which could not be guessed at otherwise;
2) you sent that information to lots of other people, including posting about it on various public internet sites;
3) the JREF still hasn't recieved said information and therefore has not had the chance to tell any friends about it.

 

[Bob Klase]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..

Why not just show it instead of hiding behind hypothetical claims?

And why (apparently with no evidence even assuming your hypothetical leak happened) would your opinion be that it was leaked by someone at JREF? You're the one that's supposed to be open-minded (based on what you say on the podcast). Surely you're not suddenly so closed minded that you won't accept the possibility that someone's dead spirit guide gave them the information.

 

[chillzero]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you?

It matters very much to me that the JREF behave in an ethical manner with regards to the challenge. If they do not, I want to see evidence.

If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

I definitely want to see this, and should it turn out to be proven, then no, I won't keep believing that the JREF are fully ethical and careful in their dealings with the challenge.
Please .... provide the evidence.

 

[Jackalgirl]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

The only actual claim that I've seen show up on the Forum is the one that Bob Klause transcribed by your show. By "actual claim", I'm talking about a phrase that starts with "I, David Koenig, ...."

GuerrillaMagic also posted about your claim, by referencing both posts in the Magic Cafe and the show.

So if something else was leaked, I'd like to know the following:

1) What about the process is confidential?
2) Where was it leaked (link, please)? I'd like to see who this "secret" JREF employee is.

You're now claiming that the JREF is lying about your application. On what date, specifically, was your application marked as received? On what date, who told you that it had not been received?

The only person I have actually witnessed to have mentioned the status of your application is RemieV, who explained that she is not in the same location as the JREF and does not receive applications until they have been received by the head office and forwarded to her. So if you are suggesting that you hold, in your hand, a confirmation from the post office that the JREF received the physical envelope containing your application and that therefore it is RemieV who is lying because she says she doesn't have it yet, then your worries are over. RemieV is not in the same physical location as the JREF and will not receive your application until they have forwarded it to her.

Now, as to how long that process normally takes, I don't know. That'd be a question for RemieV (challenge@randi.org). She did already tell you that it takes some time, and that responses are not instantaneous. Remember, RemieV has other claims she's processing, including a very promising one from a young man named Pavel, and she's the only person working on the Challenge. So it's actually a rather slow process -- I'm really glad you got your claim in now, in August, rather than in October, because if you had submitted it later, you'd probably have missed your window of opportunity. I'm telling you, the protocol phase of the process can really eat up a chunk of time. Like, a whole year or more if the person involved is incapable of describing the claim.

If you are worried that the JREF is especially afraid of your claim and is singling you out for unfair treatment, let me assure you that I highly doubt that (for whatever my opinion is worth). Please give RemieV some time.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

My question is ....
Does it even matter to you? If I show that information "IN MY OPINION" was LEAKED to a member of the forum or someone from the JREF pretending to be a member (In secret)..
Would anyone here even see how Unethical that is, or would they just keep BELIEVING how fair this is?

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

Stop the innuendo and show what you got.

Then we'll talk.

 

[Moochie]

So far, there's been an awful lot of wind, and nothing of substance. I call SHENANIGAN!


M.

 

[often mrunderstood]

This is exactly the kind of applicants that makes me feel sorry for the JREF staff. Talk about a moving target.

+1 on the no test will happen, and Mr many names claims a huge victory.

The Million is safe.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy, TP --

Another point, too -- or, rather, a suggestion: as you can probably tell, a lot of people here are getting the impression that you really have no intention whatsoever of actually pursuing the Challenge in a sincere in honest way. Rather, the impression is that you are simply trying to "gather ammunition" so that you can badmouth James Randi, the JREF, and the Challenge.

Assuming that this is not true, it would really help it if you would start answering some of the questions about your claims* in a very direct and straightforward way, instead of answering them with rhetorical questions of your own like "would it bother you if you found out that JREF were behaving unethically?"

*By claims, I refer to Claim One (your Challenge claim) and Claim Two (that a person or persons within the JREF organization is acting in an unethical fashion). To answer your question -- it would indeed bother me very much if I were to find out that anyone in the JREF were acting in an unethical fashion. However, you have yet to actually establish that this is so (or answer any of the questions asking for the details).

 

[Chris H]

Translation: When I fail the challenge (and I will), I can claim it was because of the negative vibrations created by the leak.

I tend to agree. There are already SO many loopholes that appear to have been deliberately constructed as an "out" for this application, such as already setting the time and place for the challenge before the JREF acknowledges the application, and now these claims of "leaked information".

For those who are interested, you can hear The Professors announcement of the details of his challenge application on the 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter' show podcast from August 17. Please keep in mind that at the date of broadcast, the JREF had not announced (and as far as I'm aware, still haven't) receipt of The Professors application.

http://ghostanddemon.podomatic.com/

Howdy, TP --

Another point, too -- or, rather, a suggestion: as you can probably tell, a lot of people here are getting the impression that you really have no intention whatsoever of actually pursuing the Challenge in a sincere in honest way. Rather, the impression is that you are simply trying to "gather ammunition" so that you can badmouth James Randi, the JREF, and the Challenge.

I've been involved in many threads over at The Magic Cafe with The Professor regarding the JREF and the MDC. He has been posting negative comments about Randi and the JREF for quite some time. I have a feeling (and this is just my opinion) that this application has more to do with the publicity aspect of The Professors career as a mentalist/medium/psychic/whatever than it has to do with garnering ammunition to badmouth Mr. Randi and his organisation.

I have no doubt that the event on October 31st will go ahead, with or without the participation of the JREF. Although I expect that should the JREF not participate, we are bound to hear (more on The Magic Cafe than on this forum) accusations that the JREF "ran" because they couldn't prove that the claim wasn't real.

Regards,

Chris

 

[steenkh]

I have a feeling (and this is just my opinion) that this application has more to do with the publicity aspect of The Professors career as a mentalist/medium/psychic/whatever than it has to do with garnering ammunition to badmouth Mr. Randi and his organisation.

I agree. I also think that it is very likely that The Professor is counting on the extra publicity now, and that he can let the challenge die quietly if he feels that negotiations proceed in a way that is not advantageous for him, and that the public will not remember.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Sorry, that possibility slipped my mind (although I remember people mentioning it). That's certainly another huge possibility -- and one that would be alleviated by a sincere dialogue here.

Remember, though, that TP has indicated that he is getting married in a couple of days, so if he is scarce, it may not be a good idea to assume his silence means he's insincere.

On the other hand, TP, what were you thinking? Launching an application mere days before your wedding, going on a honeymoon...when you get back, you are going to have very little time to get your protocol hammered out. Not to put pressure on your honeymoon -- congrats, good luck, and have fun, I mean that seriously! -- but boy it's going to be a close thing, if it happens at all.

 

[blobru]

Ohhh! So this isn't Rosemary Hunter making another go... at the MDC.

 

[Jackalgirl]

As near as I can determine (David, please confirm this if you can), this all was a misunderstanding. I think what happened is this:

1) David sent in his app, registered mail
2) David spoke about said app in a radio show
3) Various messages were posted in the Magic Cafe
4) GuerrillaMagic came here and posted about it, including a transcription of the actual claim, as related by David in the radio show. This claim talked about time and place and roughly about what was going to be demonstrated (to whit, a "paranormal entity"), but contained no other details.
5) RemieV posted David's email to her asking about the status of the application, and also posted her reply. In it, she explained that she is not on site, so her not having doesn't mean that the JREF doesn't have it, merely that it has not been forwarded to her yet.
6) Myriad, seeing that the claim includes a place (Lake Helen, in Florida), Googles Lake Helen, and posts information about "the Devil's Chair".
7) David claims that the JREF has "leaked" information about his application. In this very thread, he stated that JREF is claiming not to have the application when he knows they do.

As near as I can tell, it was Myriad's post about "the Devil's Chair" that did it; that was a detail that's in the application itself (as later posted by David in its entirety) that was not in the original radio version of the claim. That, and the fact that he probably confirmed that the letter had been received at JREF, and yet RemieV posted that she did not have it, led him to erroneously believe that someone was sharing the contents of his application and lying about the receipt of the application.

However, it's been pointed out that RemieV already told him that she's not in the same location as the JREF, so her not having it doesn't mean they haven't received it, just that she hasn't gotten it yet. And also that, according to the Challenge rules themselves, there is nothing confidential about the application or any correspondence related to the application -- that is, that JREF reserves the rights to use that info any way it wants (which includes talking about it on the Forum).

So I think that we have solved the mystery. Just a misunderstanding. There are no nefarious or unethical actions going on at JREF (at least, as related to this particular application).

 

[often mrunderstood]

So I think that we have solved the mystery. Just a misunderstanding. There are no nefarious or unethical actions going on at JREF (at least, as related to this particular application).

Misunderstandings are often the elaborate cover of a conspiracy (I should know).

Now that you have publicly acknowledged that "JREF" does have the application, could you please leak something exciting enough to keep this thread alive.

Prof 1, JREF 0, Paranormal entity -1

Randi is probably getting the check signing pen ready as I type this.

The woo community must be so excited, this is the real thing.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Note that neither I, nor David, or JREF, have explictly confirmed that the letter has been received. I am making the tentative assumption that David confirmed the letter had been received (using his tracking number), based on the fact that David said a) there was a tracking number and b) that he knew the JREF had received it. But he has never said "I checked with the post office and the letter's status is 'delivered'" or anything liek that.

JREF has not acknowledged that they have received it (at the main office), as far as I know -- nor have they posted that they haven't received it (at the main office), either.

 

[Mattfn]

How do you leak information that is not confidential in the first place?

Keep it in a mind too open.

If you don't clean your ears properly, as your mother told you to do, it's gotta come out somehow!

 

[fls]

How do you leak information that is not confidential in the first place?

Keep it in a mind too open.

Heh.

Unfiltered Brain Leakage.

Linda

(unsourced due to inability to remember where I heard it)

 

[Delvo]

I can't tell exactly what kind of information it could possibly be both unethical and possible for the JREF to leak, even hypothetically. (There's always information about everybody that would be unethical to leak, but I don't get why he would have sent JREF that kind of information in the first place.)

* * *

Are applicants and fake-applicants for this challenge always this melodramatic and whiny?

 

[often mrunderstood]

Are applicants and fake-applicants for this challenge always this melodramatic and whiny?

I think it appears that way because they are so excited. You'd be excited to if you were about to become a millionaire. Did you see the photo of him mailing in the application? Obviously very confident. And excited.

I wonder if he gets that pumped when he mails in a Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes form? He should be. His chances of winning that are better than getting the MDC money.

Another leak please? Even if you don't have the app yet.

You know if JREF had an online MDC application.......j/k

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

From my reading of:
http://pe.usps.gov/text/DMM300/503.htm#3_0
it's not entirely clear that you can't get a letter certified by the USPS and then just throw it away.

Under "normal" circumstances one would not do this as it's to your benefit to have something delivered and have confirmation of delivery. But I can think of other circumstances.

Is my understanding of the certification process correct? Canada Post no longer offers a certified mail service and has combined it with Registered Mail. You must had the letter to be registered to the post office official and you don't touch again.

All Registered Mail must be deposited at an authorized post office, or given to a rural mail carrier. Such items are not to be dropped into a street mailbox or mail receptacle. The sender is provided with a proof of mailing at the time of mailing.

Just Asking Questions™

 

[Coveredinbeeees]

So I think that we have solved the mystery. Just a misunderstanding. There are no nefarious or unethical actions going on at JREF (at least, as related to this particular application).

That was my reading of the situation too. Would anyone care to lay odds on an apology from TP being forthcoming?

 

[RemieV]

Cuddles .... If the JREF claims that they DON'T HAVE the application ... Which they do, at the address that I've sent it to ON THE APPLICATION ITSELF....... Then how would it show up on this Forum without a leak?

Thanks everyone who guessed at the truth of the matter. I'll go ahead and reiterate...

No one ever said the JREF doesn't have your application. *I* do not have your application. I am not on-site at the JREF. As I am the one who does preliminary protocol negotiations, that stage of the process cannot begin until *I* receive the application.

Again, I am not on-site at the JREF. Again, updates on your claim are not going to be available daily. There are more applicants than just you. Wait your turn.

As to leaking information, I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. Feel free to clarify.

 

[ObscureReferenceMan]

So far, there's been an awful lot of wind, and nothing of substance. I call SHENANIGAN!

M.

Shenanigans has been declared! Everybody get your brooms!!!

Seriously... What is the fuss about, Professor? It sounds like a lot of bluster about nothing, in an effort to pre-muddy the waters, so that when you fail you can recall all the "leaking of information" that occurred.

 

[Chris H]

Shenanigans has been declared! Everybody get your brooms!!!

Seriously... What is the fuss about, Professor? It sounds like a lot of bluster about nothing, in an effort to pre-muddy the waters, so that when you fail you can recall all the "leaking of information" that occurred.

Amen!

Chris

 

[Czarcasm]

I think I see the problem here-he seems to think that this is nothing more than another "performance", and that we are honor-bound not to reveal his secrets to the audience.

 

[Czarcasm]

Very interesting revelation from a supposedly sincere applicant: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=267933&forum=251&start=570

Sorry Randwill ... you'd better read the JREF site a bit closer!
Perhaps a search for the words paranormal event might help.
Randi claims there is no paranormal and has taken Millions from people at places like Dragoncon
No one has ever been tested for the Million dollars in 13 years!
He takes money and risks nothing. Nice deal
And you are part of it

All sorts of leaks about his methods and his motivations, straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

The Professor has not posted here in three weeks. He has not yet provided evidence for his allegation of a leak/an unethical act on part of the JREF.

The Professor's application - along with his presentation of said - has publicity/marketing stunt written all over it.

Oh yeah: No test will happen.