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Is Genesis History?

Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
241
Location
USA in the Bible Belt
Just learned that this movie, IS GENESIS HISTORY? has been released on DVD. I did a google search for the movie and was surprised to find such a small number of negative reviews and posts. I have not seen it, but it appears to be totally young earth creationist propaganda.

The few negative reviews and comments that I have seen are mostly of the name-calling variety with little or no actual rebuttal.

The movie can be downloaded here.
 
To a limited extent, the Genesis story being a myth does have at least a few historical elements.

However, since the Genesis story is a myth, then it also has a great many non-historical elements.
 
Just learned that this movie, IS GENESIS HISTORY? has been released on DVD. I did a google search for the movie and was surprised to find such a small number of negative reviews and posts. I have not seen it, but it appears to be totally young earth creationist propaganda.

The few negative reviews and comments that I have seen are mostly of the name-calling variety with little or no actual rebuttal.

The movie can be downloaded here.

I tend to avoid movies with silly questions as titles.

It's on Netflix as well.

Some of the reviews there are quite good responses. The only positive review I saw started with the 'fact' that the bible is a historically accurate book.
 
PZ Myers gave an interesting talk to our Seattle Skeptic's group years ago. He took out a Bible and tore out the first page. That was it, that was all the history of the Earth that is contained in the Bible, one page.

It was quite dramatic.
 
One could read the title as a clever, hipster slang wording, with the word "history" meant to mean out of date, no longer applicable, etc. But I gather that is not the intent of the film's producers. Too bad.
 
Just learned that this movie, IS GENESIS HISTORY? has been released on DVD. I did a google search for the movie and was surprised to find such a small number of negative reviews and posts. I have not seen it, but it appears to be totally young earth creationist propaganda.

The few negative reviews and comments that I have seen are mostly of the name-calling variety with little or no actual rebuttal.

The movie can be downloaded here.

It's not science either.
 
The only positive review I saw started with the 'fact' that the bible is a historically accurate book.

Oh dear... The review proceeded based on a false premise.

The idea that the book of Genesis is some kind of accurate historical account is sheer bollocks. Genesis is pure fiction, conceived by itinerant goat herders to account for stuff they had no ability to understand.

The works of Immanuel Velikovsky probably contain more historical truths than Genesis
 
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I watched it on Netflix.

It basically went this way,
"Science can't explain this..."
or
"Not all scientists agree on this..."
or
"This (scientific principle) has been called into question"

Therefore...GOD and the Bible.
 
I watched it on Netflix.

It basically went this way,
"Science can't explain this..."
or
"Not all scientists agree on this..."
or
"This (scientific principle) has been called into question"

Therefore...GOD and the Bible.


Sounds to me like the whole movie is based on the "God of the gaps" fallacy
 
I watched it on Netflix.
Wow. I don't know if I would have the patience.

It basically went this way,
"Science can't explain this..."
Neither can theism. The difference is that science seeks an explanation. Religion claims that there is no need because goddidit

or
"Not all scientists agree on this..."
Of course not. That is the point of science. Peer review and all that.

or
"This (scientific principle) has been called into question"
Yet refusing to put their own beliefs to the same test.

Therefore...GOD and the Bible.
And that is how the religious operate. Start with a conclusion.
 
Wow. I don't know if I would have the patience.

Neither can theism. The difference is that science seeks an explanation. Religion claims that there is no need because goddidit

Of course not. That is the point of science. Peer review and all that.

Yet refusing to put their own beliefs to the same test.

And that is how the religious operate. Start with a conclusion.

I kept waiting for the other side of the story.

It was/is very obvious the "host" went in with preconceived notions.
 
"Is Genesis history?"

If you need to ask the question, you're not going to understand the answer.
 
"Is Genesis history?"

If you need to ask the question, you're not going to understand the answer.

Of course Genesis was never the same after Peter Gabriel left but some might consider that a good thing. There's always hope for a reunion tour.
 
Of course Genesis was never the same after Peter Gabriel left but some might consider that a good thing. There's always hope for a reunion tour.

Steve Hackett has been keeping the flame alive in recent years, though it sounds as though Satan is unlikely to be able to plays the drums.
 
Just learned that this movie, IS GENESIS HISTORY? has been released on DVD. I did a google search for the movie and was surprised to find such a small number of negative reviews and posts. I have not seen it, but it appears to be totally young earth creationist propaganda.

The few negative reviews and comments that I have seen are mostly of the name-calling variety with little or no actual rebuttal.

The movie can be downloaded here.

Of course it is a myth, since most of the events depicted are physically impossible, and do not agree with what we know from other verified sources. We know that the earth did not evolve in 6 days. Serpents do not have the physical apparatus for speech, and knowledge cannot be gained simply by the ingestion of nutrients. And if Adam and Eve were the only people, and they had sons, where did the sons find mates? And the list goes on, and on..... Elementary, my dear Watson.....
 
The Old Testament was never meant to be taken literally. It was all morality tales. It wasn't until much later that people took it literally, and have ever since.
 
The Old Testament was never meant to be taken literally. It was all morality tales. It wasn't until much later that people took it literally, and have ever since.
Do you have evidence that in early times it wasn't taken literally? When did people start doing so, and what did they believe about the world's origin before that?
 
I saw about five minutes of it. Dude used the ensuing floods from Mount Saint Helen's to I guess demonstrate that the Grand Canyon was too the result of The Flood, you guise. Preliminary investigoogling revealed that both OECs and actual scientists hypothesize that he's full of that which makes the grass grow.
 
Is Genesis history? I'd say they are. I mean, last time they got together with Phil Collins for a tour was in 2007, innit?
 
Of course it's history.

But only in the action movie sense where someone blows it out of a window.
 
Do you have evidence that in early times it wasn't taken literally? When did people start doing so, and what did they believe about the world's origin before that?
I think a metaphorical approach (along with a literal approach) to the Old Testament predates Christ. Certainly Philo of Alexandria examined the OT using a Platonic approach, similar to Greek philosophers' approach to their own myths. The Jewish and Christian scholars had a similar problem to the Christians in more modern times: resolving Jewish/Christian beliefs with the 'common knowledge' beliefs of the pagan philosophers.

On the Christian side, here is Origen, writing about 1800 years ago: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm

But, that our meaning may be ascertained by the facts themselves, let us examine the passages of Scripture. Now who is there, pray, possessed of understanding, that will regard the statement as appropriate, that the first day, and the second, and the third, in which also both evening and morning are mentioned, existed without sun, and moon, and stars— the first day even without a sky? And who is found so ignorant as to suppose that God, as if He had been a husbandman, planted trees in paradise, in Eden towards the east, and a tree of life in it, i.e., a visible and palpable tree of wood, so that anyone eating of it with bodily teeth should obtain life, and, eating again of another tree, should come to the knowledge of good and evil?...

The same style of Scriptural narrative occurs abundantly in the Gospels, as when the devil is said to have placed Jesus on a lofty mountain, that he might show Him from thence all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. How could it literally come to pass, either that Jesus should be led up by the devil into a high mountain, or that the latter should show him all the kingdoms of the world (as if they were lying beneath his bodily eyes, and adjacent to one mountain), i.e., the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians? Or how could he show in what manner the kings of these kingdoms are glorified by men? And many other instances similar to this will be found in the Gospels by anyone who will read them with attention, and will observe that in those narratives which appear to be literally recorded, there are inserted and interwoven things which cannot be admitted historically...​

Origen's comment about "who is found so ignorant as to suppose that God... planted trees in paradise" suggests that such a view was widespread in his time. The fact is that the fundamentalist dogmatic belief in the literal truth of the Bible is a modern invention, dating from the late 19th C. It's worth noting that it wasn't that the fundamentalist view that was mainstream, and then the liberal church broke away from that; in fact, it was the fundamentalist churches that broke away from the mainstream, more liberal churches.

There was an interesting sermon preached in 1922 called “Shall The Fundamentalists Win?” by Harry Emerson Fosdick, in which he railed against the new fundamentalists trying to drive out the non-fundamentalists from the church. Fosdick said: http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/shall-the-fundamentalists-win.pdf

Here, for example, is one point of view; that the virgin birth is to be accepted as historical fact; it actually happened... But, side by side with them in the evangelical churches is a group of equally loyal and reverent people who would say that the virgin birth is not to be accepted as an historic fact. To believe in virgin birth as an explanation of great personality is one of the familiar ways in which the ancient world was accustomed to account for unusual superiority...

In the evangelical churches today there are differing views of this matter [Christ returning]. One view is that Christ is literally coming, externally on the clouds of heaven, to set up his kingdom here. I never heard that teaching in my youth at all.
 
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For those who may be interested, on my old website I collected a number of quotes by ancient authors, pagans and others, on their views of the world, e.g the distance from earth to the moon, and from earth to the sun (Pliny the Elder was very accurate). It is on my 'In their own words' page here:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/in_their_own_words.html

I haven't updated it in years, so some of the links to the sources may be broken.
 
Origen is late 2nd century CE. The round earth only becomes mainstream in the 3'rd century BCE even for the Greeks, much less for some backwatter goathumpers. I hope you can see the problem with using a 2nd century CE writer to support the idea that the OLD TESTAMENT, some of which was written over a millennium before Origen was even born, wasn't meant to be taken literally.

I mean it's literally like using the books of Feynmann (20'th century) to show that they didn't REALLY take alchemy and the trransmutation of metals seriously in the 12'th century, when translations from Arabic made it all the rage in Europe. And I literally use literally literally.

And even in Origen's time, other Xian writers WERE believing a rather less scientific view of the world. Hell, you only have to ask yourself: who is Origen writing that AGAINST? If people didn't embarrass educated people like Origen by actually making such claims, why is he telling people not to? Is Origen fighting a strawman, or what?

But more to the point, Irenaeus writes in a similar time frame that the gospels can only be four, just like there are four corners of the Earth. (And four cardinal winds.) I don't think he meant that just metaphorically, since if those fours are only imaginary things then his argument for four gospels becomes null and void.
 
I hope you can see the problem with using a 2nd century CE writer to support the idea that the OLD TESTAMENT, some of which was written over a millennium before Origen was even born, wasn't meant to be taken literally.
I can, but I think you are reading something more into my response than what is there. As I wrote: I think a metaphorical approach (along with a literal approach) to the Old Testament predates Christ.
 
I can, but I think you are reading something more into my response than what is there. As I wrote: I think a metaphorical approach (along with a literal approach) to the Old Testament predates Christ.

Well, it can predate Christianity, since the Greeks got to that area before Christianity. That's still a long time after the OT was composed, though. So on the whole it still doesn't change the fact that we really have no indication that such cosmologies were originally supposed to be anything else than real cosmologies.

Plus, I'd point out that even those non-literalists were only very partially non-literalists. The parts that were trivially known as not true, ok, people do retreat into "no, that's not LITERAL." The rest of the OT was quite happily used as literal by Philo too. Or for that matter by Catholics too more than a millennium after Christ. I'd remind you that one of THE objections to Galileo in was that his theory contradicts the OT, and that's around 1600 AFTER Christ.

So, yeah, they were quite happy to discard the parts where one would immediately be found ignorant for taking literally, as Origen puts it. But the rest? Unless it was so disproven, they were quite happy to take literally.

And for that matter, here's the even bigger idiocy: even the parts that ARE discarded as just metaphor, are still occasionally indirectly taken as fact. I'm not even talking about the 2nd century. In this day, although the church doesn't take Adam and Eve literally, women can't be priests, because of some reasoning by Paul and other early Church Fathers... who do base it on taking Eve's sin as fact. So just going indirect one step seems to allow one to have their cake and eat it.
 
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Well, it can predate Christianity, since the Greeks got to that area before Christianity.
:thumbsup: Yep, exactly my point. And it's interesting to consider that the Gospels were written and rewritten with such a philosophical background.
 
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Well, I think that's what Carrier (among others) is trying to say with the synergistic religions part.

But I think it's pretty clear even to rather mainstream scholars (e.g., Ehrman) that the authors of the gospels, and for that matter of most epistles, were highly educated Greek-speaking authors.

Plus, it's clear they even were in a position to have access to other manuscripts. John has at the very least read Philo. Luke has access to Josephus and very likely SOME kind of court transcripts and possibly a travelogue or two. Matthew has access to a copy of the Tanakh translated in Greek, from which he comes up with the two donkeys scene and the virgin birth. Both Matthew and Luke may have had access to Q, in whatever form that may have been.

So, yeah, it's not very surprising that they know a bit of philosophy. Now I'm not saying they were necessarily rich guys or anything, but even a slave scribe with that kind of access to manuscripts (and possibly having to copy such manuscripts) would be hard pressed to avoid being exposed to one or more of the mainstream philosophical schools.

Especially when you add the fact that Mark was likely written in Rome, and the other three don't seem particularly backwater either, yeah, it would be kind of hard to avoid hearing about philosophy.

Plus, a lot of the exercise was basically applying steganography to the OT, so obviously at the very least they weren't taking it as just a historical account.
 
Judea was hardly a backwater. It was a terminus for the Silk Road and Herod the Great was BFFs with a couple of emperors. It was a key province holding the eastern Med for Rome. Prior to that it was the crossroad between Egypt and the Persians and the various civilizations in what is now Turkey. Think of it as Belgium, with all that entails. :eek:
 
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It still had an abysmal literacy rate even in the time when Herod was BFF with the Emperor. And a tendency to reject anything that has to do with other gods (which covers most of the philosophy at the time), or even different interpretations of their own text. Which isn't exactly a recipe for enlightenment.
 
Didn't say its population was literate. Neither was much of the Roman world. It just wasn't the boondocks.
 
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