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If birds are dinosaurs then what are dinosaurs?

William Parcher

Show me the monkey!
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
26,817
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?
 
It's a lay figure of speech. "Birds are dinosaurs" is fun to say, because it's still a novel idea, that recontextualizes both birds and dinosaurs in our minds. We're still kind of shocked by the idea that chickens are the heirs of the thunder lizards of prehistory. "Birds are dinosaurs" celebrates that shock and excitement.

You don't hear "hairless apes" used to describe humans much, but it does happen, and is essentially the same kind of thing. Really, humans and apes are both descendants of the same family or genus or whatever of primates. Or whatever.

Tracing the Linnaean taxonomy back to find a parent grouping that includes both birds and dinosaurs, similar to the "primate" grouping for humans and apes, is left as an exercise for the reader.
 
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?

"All Xes are Ys but not all Ys are Xes" simply cannot be giving you this much difficulty.

BTW "Non-Avian Dinosaur" is a not universal but neither uncommon term to describe prehistoric dinosaurs to avoid even the minor amount of confusion you are having.
 
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?

I suspect the problem will be with your initial belief that "the idea is that birds are what they descended from".

I don't think that is the idea. Rather it's that birds are one type of dinosaur and haven't evolved into something that doesn't fit the definition of a dinosaur. But I may well be mistaken as I have no expertise. I just listen to an awful lot of episodes of the "Terrible Lizards" podcast.
 
Also this is all arbitrary categorization that only exists to make things easier to understand and you're not supposed to try and break it.
 
Someone lock the door before Diogenes runs in with a plucked chicken screaming "BEHOLD! A T-REX!"
 
I guess we just call all eukaryotic life forms "bacteria" and be done with it. Simplifies everything.
 
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?

Tetrapods. Dinosaurs are tetrapods.
 
The whole "Dinosaur" term is kind of quaint anyway, describing (at best) two completely separate linages across 3 geological periods.

As XKCD put it by almost literally criteria you can imagine a T-rex is closer to a modern Sparrow than it is to a Stegosaurus.

birds_and_dinosaurs.png
 
This is also why the nitpicking "Pterosaurs and aquatic mammals aren't dinosaurs!" thing is kind of annoying to me, as if "Dinosaur" is some super-specific scientific term.
 
That's kind of like asking: "If humans are mammals, then what are mammals?"
 
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?

In cladisitcs , each taxonomic group is nested within the one preceding it.

So birds (Aves) are included within the clade Dinosauria.

A very simplified taxonomy would be: Aves -> Dinosauria -> Archosauria -> Amniota -> Tetrapoda -> etc., all the way back to Eukaryota. Then it becomes difficult to classify because of the merging of bacteria and archaea to make eukaryotes.
 
Okay but let's ask the real question.

If I'm ordering an Apatosaurus prime rib at a restaurant would it be steak or fowl? Do I get White Wine or Red Wine to go with it?
 
Okay but let's ask the real question.

If I'm ordering an Apatosaurus prime rib at a restaurant would it be steak or fowl? Do I get White Wine or Red Wine to go with it?


If it is the white meat, the white wine if it is the dark meat red wine.

When were you brought up?
 
So funny story T-rex meat would probably be poisonous to you or me. Cadmium levels in the environment were a lot higher in the late Cretaceous and Rexy being an high on the food chain predator would probably have toxic levels in his flesh.
 
Okay but let's ask the real question.

If I'm ordering an Apatosaurus prime rib at a restaurant would it be steak or fowl? Do I get White Wine or Red Wine to go with it?

Are you Fred or Barney?

If it is the white meat, the white wine if it is the dark meat red wine.

When were you brought up?

Hmmm... tastes like chicken!
 
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Tetrapods. Dinosaurs are tetrapods.

Alright then. We're getting somewhere. People are going to want to know what a tetrapod looks like. What do we tell them? They especially want to know if tetrapods are bad ass killers.
 
The only bird that shows mercy upon its prey is the vulture. Well, it's already dead and this won't hurt it any.
 
Lobe finned fish. Dinosaurs are lobe finned fish. So are snakes. And people.
 
Alright then. We're getting somewhere. People are going to want to know what a tetrapod looks like. What do we tell them? They especially want to know if tetrapods are bad ass killers.

Lobe-finned fishes
The group Tetrapoda, a superclass including amphibians, reptiles (including dinosaurs and therefore birds), and mammals, evolved from certain sarcopterygians; under a cladistic view, tetrapods are themselves considered a group within Sarcopterygii.
 
I've been amused for some time that dinosaurs are broadly divided into Saurichia (lizard hipped) and Ornithischia (bird hipped); and that birds are descended from the former.
 
We're still kind of shocked by the idea that chickens are the heirs of the thunder lizards of prehistory.
Ahem. *nerd snort* Technically, "thunder lizard" is the translation of the word brontosaurus. Birds aren't descended from brontosaurus. The words you're looking for are "terrible lizard".

Alright then. We're getting somewhere. People are going to want to know what a tetrapod looks like. What do we tell them? They especially want to know if tetrapods are bad ass killers.
The word "tetrapod" literally means "four limbs". What does one look like? Everything that has four limbs is a tetrapod. Some of them are bad ass killers, some of them are fluffy bunnies.
 
This is also why the nitpicking "Pterosaurs and aquatic mammals aren't dinosaurs!" thing is kind of annoying to me, as if "Dinosaur" is some super-specific scientific term.
Well, it is. Dinosaurs are specifically defined as terrestrial vertebrates. That means that they're not flyers, and they're not swimmers. Ichthyosaurs and pterosaurs are not dinosaurs. They're distinct groups of animals that just happened to be around at the same time.

I've been amused for some time that dinosaurs are broadly divided into Saurichia (lizard hipped) and Ornithischia (bird hipped); and that birds are descended from the former.
That division is no longer recognised as fundamental. There are too many exceptions.

Basically everything that I learned from the dinosaur books I loved as a child in the 70s is wrong.
 
I've consulted the only dinosaur expert I know, which is my 7-year-old nephew. Posing the OP's question to him, he replied "Dinosaurs are the most awesome thing in like the whole world and history!"

So there you have it.
 
The idea is that birds are what they descended from and therefore are dinosaurs. So then dinosaurs too are whatever they descended from.

Surprise ... birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs are what? If we are clever and accurate to say that birds are dinosaurs then what should we say that dinosaurs are in order to use that same logic with consistency?

A clade is just a group and all it's descendants. So if two things are members of a clade, then so are their common ancestors. If Chimpanzees and Gorillas are both apes, then so are the common ancestor of Chimps and Gorillas. And so, necessarily, are any other descendants of that common ancestor (including humans). So either humans are apes or "apes" isn't a word that describes a clade, it's describing something else.

For instance Fish clearly doesn't describe a clade, because if it does then it includes whales (and humans), as both are more closely related to some fish than those fish are to other fish.

From an evolutionary perspective clades are a pretty useful classification system, because they're based on relatedness. If dinosaurs are a clade, then birds are dinosaurs. But there are other classifications that can be useful other than cladistic ones. I think fish is still a useful category, even if it doesn't include humans. It's useful because animals that adapted to life in the ocean over deep time have some shared characteristics, and perhaps more importantly life that moved on to land changed in meaningful ways such that a classification of "fish that stayed in the ocean" actually does capture something important.

But is dinosaurs like that? I'm not sure. Birds are a clade of their own, it's entirely possible to talk about birds as birds (one branch of the dinosaur family). Generally I think a cladistic approach makes the most sense here. Birds are dinosaurs, even though not all dinosaurs are* birds.

*Probably should be "were", since at the moment all dinosaurs are birds. :boxedin:
 
Well, it is. Dinosaurs are specifically defined as terrestrial vertebrates. That means that they're not flyers, and they're not swimmers..

Dinosauria are defined as the last common ancestor of Triceratops horridus, Passer domesticus and Diplodocus carnegii, and all of its descendants.

Some birds are flyers. All birds are dinosaurs. Therefore some dinosaurs are flyers. Similarly for swimmers.

Even for non-avian dinosaurs, their terrestriality is an observation, not part of the definition.
 
This thread reminded me about that paper a few years ago, where they turned a chicken into a t-rex by putting a plunger on its butt:
 
I've consulted the only dinosaur expert I know, which is my 7-year-old nephew. Posing the OP's question to him, he replied "Dinosaurs are the most awesome thing in like the whole world and history!"

So there you have it.

This is what I love about this place. Lots of knowledgeable lay people make some clear responses that really helps to lay the groundwork around an issue. And the we get input from a true expert that puts it all into context.

Thank you.
 
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