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Good bacteria drinks

AgeGap

Master Poster
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Any ideas if or how they work. Their are lots of drinks in my local supermarket with 'good bacteria' in them. How do these bacteria get past the acid in my stomach. I can only think of a Saving Private Ryan scenario where the few survivors who make it through the opening stage get to go on and do their work. The're not meant to be taken any other route than oral are they?
 
Your theory is mostly right:D . Usually the chosen bacteria have special resistence to the stomach environment also, which insures that some of them make it through. Lactic bacteria enter in this category.

As to what they actually do, there are real, proven benefits, but also a significant amount of woo science on that.

Good bacteria naturally inhabit the bowels. They help with digestion and some will produce vitamin K, necessary for efficient coagulation, for you. The other purpose is to inhabit, occupy, your bowels so that pathogenic bacteria (those that give you diarrhea) stay away.

So for example there are benefits in taking those bacteria if you are taking antibiotics, since some antibiotics tend to kill bowel bacteria, making you vulnerable to diarrhea-causing ones. However, yogurt rarely contains enough for that purpose; concentrated pill-form supplements are more efficient (those need to be kept in a cool place and wont keep good for long). Another thing is that the intestinal flora, the bowel bacteria, contains much more variety of bacterial strains than what is proposed in supplements. So they can help, but they are no panacea.

Some claim that they help the immune system, which is a very broad statement, probably based on studies linking the intestinal flora of infants with auto-immune diseases. Personnally I would be cautious about these claims.

the Kemist
 
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The most noticeable effect of probiotics is the lightening your wallet effect, me thinks.
 
At the very least, they provide a smidgin of protein in your diet.
 
krazyKemist said:
Your theory is mostly right:D . Usually the chosen bacteria have special resistence to the stomach environment also, which insures that some of them make it through. Lactic bacteria enter in this category.

As to what they actually do, there are real, proven benefits, but also a significant amount of woo science on that.

Good bacteria naturally inhabit the bowels. They help with digestion and some will produce vitamin K, necessary for efficient coagulation, for you. The other purpose is to inhabit, occupy, your bowels so that pathogenic bacteria (those that give you diarrhea) stay away.

So for example there are benefits in taking those bacteria if you are taking antibiotics, since some antibiotics tend to kill bowel bacteria, making you vulnerable to diarrhea-causing ones. However, yogurt rarely contains enough for that purpose; concentrated pill-form supplements are more efficient (those need to be kept in a cool place and wont keep good for long). Another thing is that the intestinal flora, the bowel bacteria, contains much more variety of bacterial strains than what is proposed in supplements. So they can help, but they are no panacea.

Some claim that they help the immune system, which is a very broad statement, probably based on studies linking the intestinal flora of infants with auto-immune diseases. Personnally I would be cautious about these claims.

the Kemist
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Good information.

As such, can we link constipation or unclear motions to excess of beneficial bacterias and diarrhea and much clear motions to lesser and harmful bacterias?

As such, can these bacterias effect digestion and absorptions of nutrients, impacting of body and immune system?
 
rustytunes said:
The most noticeable effect of probiotics is the lightening your wallet effect, me thinks.
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Well, for humans maybe. I've heard some people recommend yogurt which is not *too* expensive..... :)

People don't really need this in the normal course of things. The bacteria live in the stomach because, well, they are *designed* to live in the stomach - or more properly, the rumen.

Ruminants depend on beneficial microorganisms living in the rumen for their very life, and while Lactobacillus might help people occasionally, it's not vital to them. For those interested in what is in this stuff, here is the label from Probios for cattle (this is a gel or pill that is put down the throat of a sick ruminant, to keep the rumen alive and functioning):

Label Guarantee
Lactic Acid Bateria*, not less than 10 Million CFU**/g
*Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus plantarum
**Colony Forming Units

Ingredients:
Vegetable Oil, Corn Starch, Sucrose, Silicon Dioxide, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Silico Aluminate, Certified Color, and Ethoxyquin, as a Preservative.
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Now, if we had a rumen...... but we don't. So although some of this can help out with digestion on the rare occasion (ask your doctor), unless you have a rumen (like a cow, goat, sheep, deer etc.) probiotics are not really that important of a supplement to your health. I don't think it would hurt but for the most part we get the beneficial microorganisms we need in our daily diet.

If you raised goats (like I do) then you would need to keep it on hand at all times "just in case" but I certainly don't swallow any of it myself! :D
 
Well, having the right commensal flora is important for monogastrics too. And in fact if there is a problem, oral probiotic administration seems to be beneficial if you give enough so that the small percentage that get past the stomach make a difference. I've seen a couple of published papers about this, and anecdotally I've seen it "work" in cats and dogs.

However, if you don't have any sort of gut problem or symptoms, taking probiotics is a waste of time and money.

If the stomach was 100% effective at killing all bacteria, we'd never get bacterial food poisoning. Salmonella, Campylobacter, VTEC and the rest, all harmless? Sadly, not.

Rolfe.
 
I have not seen good studies showing usefulness of oral bacterial agents. For me the problem is that they don't differentiate between the living and non living components of the product. To satisfy me they would give the product and the control would be a sterile version of the product (same ingredients but dead bacteria.) The studies were done before the concept of a prebioticWP was well known.
 
You may want to look at probiotic treatment in clostridium difficile colitis. We use it frequently in my facility, as the "1st line" treatments (vancomycin and Flagyl) can still exacerbate the actual diarrhea. Clinically, I've seen it work, and not work, depending on the individual patient, and whether or not the bacteria are colonized.
 
chiyo said:
You may want to look at probiotic treatment in clostridium difficile colitis. We use it frequently in my facility, as the "1st line" treatments (vancomycin and Flagyl) can still exacerbate the actual diarrhea. Clinically, I've seen it work, and not work, depending on the individual patient, and whether or not the bacteria are colonized.
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Hi chiyo, what kind of a facility is that you work in? What probiotic do you use?
 
Strictly anecdotal, but I've found that eating good unpasteurized yoghurt (with live acidophilus cultures) seems to help avoid the diarrhea and oral yeast infection I typically get from the strong antibiotics I occasionally take for a chronic recurring sinus infection.
 
luchog said:
Strictly anecdotal, but I've found that eating good unpasteurized yoghurt (with live acidophilus cultures) seems to help avoid the diarrhea and oral yeast infection I typically get from the strong antibiotics I occasionally take for a chronic recurring sinus infection.
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It is likely that pasteurized yogurt works just as well. I have heard how yogurt helped all these pets diarrhea only most people were unknowingly using pasteurized yogurt. It may be that yogurt is a prebiotic. Eating yogurt favors the growth of certain types of bacteria (no need for introduced species of bacteria). Then again it may be all anecdotes.
 
Dogdoctor said:
Hi chiyo, what kind of a facility is that you work in? What probiotic do you use?
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I am the nurse administrator of a short-term rehab. For the most part, we use Lactinex, with some Florestor thrown in for good measure. Sometimes generic acidophilus as well. Works wonders on antibiotic acquired diarrhea, and as an adjunct in the treatment of VRE and C. Difficile colitis.
 
Looking around at studies of various products I don't find any studies that rule out the possibility that the products as a prebiotic. In other words the same product with all the bacteria killed used as a control. Or perhaps there are studies showing that the bacteria ingested (labeled to differentiate them from wild strains) are found in increased numbers in the digestive tract following ingestion? I haven't found any. Any of you googlers find anything like that?
 
Vancomycin resistant enterococcus. BADDDDD bug--extremely virulent, especially in the elderly. Isolation is necessary.
 
Kumar said:
Good information.

As such, can we link constipation or unclear motions to excess of beneficial bacterias and diarrhea and much clear motions to lesser and harmful bacterias?

As such, can these bacterias effect digestion and absorptions of nutrients, impacting of body and immune system?
Click to expand...

It seems to help some people for bowel problems, mostly those exposed to high dose antibiotics. As an anecdote, it certainly helped me while on treatment for an infected cyst.

But the treatment is not standardized, and many different strains, and strain mixes, have been used with more or less success.

Sure the intestinal flora plays a role in health, but these roles are not clear yet.

As for chronic constipation/diarrhea problems without apparent cause (ie taking a new medication, change in diet), they should be investigated medically before attempting any self-medication. They may be a sign of more serious problems.

the Kemist
 
Just to pick up on the C. difficile point that Chyio made... C. diff-associated disease (CDAD) is an emerging problem in both the US and Europe. Something like 80% of the population have antibodies against C. diff, which means that 8/10 people are colonised by this bacteria at some point in their lives.

CDAD makes the news quite a bit because it is associated with hospital-aquired infection with C. diff (rightly or wrongly). The bacterium forms heat and acid resistant endospores which may persist on surfaces for as long as 5 months according to the last study I read on the topic.

The trouble is that C. diff is also resistant to multiple antibiotics. So if you go into hospital and have a broard spectrum antibiotic (I beleive Cephalosporins are recognised as a major risk factor for CDAD? Anyone?), presumably your defenses are going to be down anyway if you're sick. So the antibiotics kill off your normal gut microflora and that leaves behind the resistant C. diff to set up an infection.

I believe that doctors are interested in the role of probiotics administered prophylactically with oral broard spectrum antibiotics as a way to prevent CDAD. I also this there have been some successes, but I've a hazy memory of hearing this second-hand at a conference, so I couldn't point to an actual paper that shows this.

Interestingly enough, studies show that the best bacteria to take as a probiotic are the ones purified from your own poo :>
 
As others have already indicated, taking bacterial supplements is like taking any other supplement. If you have a deficiency in something, be it a vitamin, mineral, bacterium or whatever, then taking more of it can be helpful. If you don't have any reason why you might need more, there is no point in taking more. For the vast majority of people, probiotics are pointless.
 
Dogdoctor said:
It is likely that pasteurized yogurt works just as well. I have heard how yogurt helped all these pets diarrhea only most people were unknowingly using pasteurized yogurt. It may be that yogurt is a prebiotic. Eating yogurt favors the growth of certain types of bacteria (no need for introduced species of bacteria). Then again it may be all anecdotes.
Click to expand...

Never really done the research, so I can't say for sure if it's all that valuable or not; just that it seems to work for me (emphasis on the "seems", of course). I haven't noticed that pasteurized yoghurt helps much; but I really don't like it, so I don't eat it anyway.
 
luchog said:
Never really done the research, so I can't say for sure if it's all that valuable or not; just that it seems to work for me (emphasis on the "seems", of course). I haven't noticed that pasteurized yoghurt helps much; but I really don't like it, so I don't eat it anyway.
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As far as I know there hasn't been any research done comparing pasturized yogurt with regular yogurt.
 
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Oh please.

Effect of Lactobacillus GG yoghurt in prevention of antibiotic associated diarrhoea.

The efficacy of Lactobacillus GG yoghurt in preventing erythromycin associated diarrhoea was studied. Sixteen healthy volunteers were given erythromycin acistrate 400 mg t.i.d for a week. The volunteers were randomly assigned into two groups taking twice daily 125 ml of either Lactobacillus GG fermented yoghurt or pasteurized regular yoghurt as placebo during the drug treatment. Subjects receiving Lactobacillus GG yoghurt with erythromycin had less diarrhoea than those taking pasteurized yoghurt. Other side effects of erythromycin, such as abdominal distress, stomach pain and flatulence, were less common in the GG yoghurt group than in the placebo yoghurt group. The subjects receiving Lactobacillus GG yoghurt were colonized with these bacteria even during erythromycin treatment as measured by faecal counts of total Lactobacillus GG. No Lactobacillus GG was found in the faecal samples of volunteers in the group taking pasteurized yoghurt.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
 
A placebo-controlled trial of Lactobacillus GG to prevent diarrhea in undernourished Peruvian children.

RESULTS: Subjects in the L-GG group had significantly fewer episodes of diarrhea (5.21 episodes diarrhea/child/year ['ecy'] L-GG group, 6. 02 ecy placebo group; P =.028). The decreased incidence of diarrhea in the L-GG group was greatest in the 18- to 29-month age group (P =. 004) and was largely limited to nonbreastfed children (Breastfed: 6. 59 ecy L-GG, 6.32 ecy placebo, P =.7; Nonbreastfed: 4.69 ecy L-GG, 5. 86 ecy placebo, P =.005).
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...med.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
 
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Your quite welcome. I'm not really that bad, I just seem like it online.

The beneficial effect of bacteria in the bowel is thought to be equal in biological activity, to the liver. There is an abundance of hard science on the benefits of LAB on human health.

Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and their probio-active cellular substances exert many beneficial effects in the gastrointestinal tract. LAB prevent adherence, establishment, and replication of several enteric mucosal pathogens through several antimicrobial mechanisms. LAB also release various enzymes into the intestinal lumen and exert potential synergistic effects on digestion and alleviate symptoms of intestinal malabsoption. Consumption of LAB fermented dairy products with LAB may elicit antitumor effects. These effects are attributed to the inhibition of mutagenic activity; decrease in several enzymes implicated in the generation of carcinogens, mutagens, or tumor-promoting agents; suppression of tumors; and the epidemiology correlating dietary regimes and cancer. Specific cellular components in LAB strains seem to induce strong adjuvant effects including modulation of cell-mediated immune responses, activation of reticuloendothelial system, augmentation of cytokine pathways and regulation of interleukins, and tumor necrosis factors. Oral administration of LAB is well tolerated and proven to be safe in 143 human clinical trials and no adverse effects were reported in any of the total 7,526 subjects studied during 1961-1998. In an effort to decrease the reliance on synthetic antimicrobials and control the emerging immunocompromised host population, the time has come to carefully explore the prophylactic and therapeutic applications of probiotic LAB
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http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=g727154545~db=all
 
Dogdoctor said:
Also some respected medical establishments such as the Mayo Clinic still hedge on the effectiveness of these preparations so I wonder why that is?
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That is a good question. And when it comes to our health, that most precious of things, it is important that we get accurate and helpful information.

I apologize for the "Oh please". After 40 years of research and experimentation, one becomes testy over the terrible ignorance and misinformation spread by certain Medical "Authorities", that seem to suffer from an awful case of Confirmational Bias, when it comes to nutrition and Orthomolecular science.
 
Dogdoctor said:
Also some respected medical establishments such as the Mayo Clinic still hedge on the effectiveness of these preparations so I wonder why that is?
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I suspect this is because the evidence is rather equivocal.
Probiotics have been widely trialed in a variety of GI diseases, but no clear benefits have been found. Some studies show benefit, but no consistent picture has emerged.

Although yogurt is commonly recommended as a source of probiotics, not all of the live cultures contained in yogurt survive well in an acidic environment nor do they colonize the microflora efficiently. Also, the residual lactose contained in yogurt can increase symptoms in patients with lactose intolerance.

The present paper provides an overview on the use of probiotic organisms as live supplements, with particular emphasis on Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium spp. The therapeutic potential of these bacteria in fermented dairy products is dependent on their survival during manufacture and storage. Probiotic bacteria are increasingly used in food and pharmaceutical applications to balance disturbed intestinal microflora and related dysfunction of the human gastrointestinal tract. Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium spp. have been reported to be beneficial probiotic organisms that provide excellent therapeutic benefits. The biological activity of probiotic bacteria is due in part to their ability to attach to enterocytes. This inhibits the binding of enteric pathogens by a process of competitive exclusion. Attachment of probiotic bacteria to cell surface receptors of enterocytes also initiates signalling events that result in the synthesis of cytokines. Probiotic bacteria also exert an influence on commensal micro-organisms by the production of lactic acid and bacteriocins. These substances inhibit growth of pathogens and also alter the ecological balance of enteric commensals. Production of butyric acid by some probiotic bacteria affects the turnover of enterocytes and neutralizes the activity of dietary carcinogens, such as nitrosamines, that are generated by the metabolic activity of commensal bacteria in subjects consuming a high-protein diet. Therefore, inclusion of probiotic bacteria in fermented dairy products enhances their value as better therapeutic functional foods. However, insufficient viability and survival of these bacteria remain a problem in commercial food products. By selecting better functional probiotic strains and adopting improved methods to enhance survival, including the use of appropriate prebiotics and the optimal combination of probiotics and prebiotics (synbiotics), an increased delivery of viable bacteria in fermented products to the consumers can be achieved.
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Dogdoctor said:
eta: One of the problems I have in checking out these products is there are so many and I have so little time. Also some respected medical establishments such as the Mayo Clinic still hedge on the effectiveness of these preparations so I wonder why that is?
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I think that is because they are likely to review all of the research in context relevant to specific questions, rather than cite positive studies while ignoring negative studies, refer to studies that are not related to the question, or attempt invalid generalizations from in vitro to in vivo, animal to human, isolated physiologic effects to clinical effects, or use in specific illness to use in the absence of illness.

Linda
 
I think there may be useful products out there from my limited perspective. However the idea that it is because of the live status or colonization of the digestive tract may not be true. Every strain of bacteria is composed of different chemicals and bacterial cultures contain in addition to those chemicals, the chemicals that were in the culture medium and the by products of metabolism form the bacteria. Any of these may possibly have an effect. In the case of staph bacteria while it is not a beneficial effect it causes symptoms of food poisoning regardless of the living or dead status of the bacteria. There are so many different products it could be some of them are safe and effective. I am unfamiliar with human medicine so looked at Mayo Clinic site and this what I came up with for lactoibacillus at the Mayo Clinic site. As you can see they grade them according to strength of evidence. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lactobacillus/NS_patient-acidophilus
 
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