[Continuation] General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[theprestige]

So the murderer gets to define what constitutes murder and presto he is not a murderer any longer... : sdL :

No. When it comes to human shields in warfare, who is the murderer and who isn't is defined by the Geneva Conventions, International Humanitarian Law, and other agreements in international law.

Using human shields is a war crime. Proportional attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not a war crime. The reasons why this is a good idea should be obvious, but here we are.

 

[Hercules56]

So is Israel... and doing it too and has been doing it for decades upon decades... long before Hamas.





So the murderer gets to define what constitutes murder and presto he is not a murderer any longer... :sdL:





Yes... and so is willfully killing the "human shields".

If a fleeing bank robber deliberately runs into a crowded shop... what do you call the police who start shooting at him regardless of the people around him?

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

 

[lionking]

I had to open the link to even understand that what you were describing/claiming is NOT a poll of Israeli attitudes, but rather, the UK.

A bit dishonest, if you ask me, but whatever...

As for a ceasefire in-place, has it not occurred to anyone that once such a thing happens (and it will, eventually) the Israelis may just say, OK, we're here, you're over there. We're going to erect a fenceline along the ceasefire 'borders' (armistice lines) and call it a day.

That's what happened in 1949.
(Rhodes Ceasefire)

I didn’t open that link because of the unreliability of that member’s posts, but am not surprised at the breathtaking dishonesty of it.

I could add that you can scratch a Brit and a racist will likely emerge, but I can’t really be bothered.

 

[webfusion]

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

The IDF certainly is claiming that right, as today there are a reported 18 lying dead in Jenin, and over 50 eliminated in Gaza.

Hard to keep track, but not only are there some lethal results of these anti-terror raids, also since the beginning of the war over 1,430 'suspects' have been arrested in the WestBank, over 900 of whom were affiliated with Hamas.

When Israel releases prisoners for hostages, there are going to be thousands, perhaps in the range of 6,000 or more. (My prediction, based on absolutely nothing).

 

[Leumas]

Do you believe Israel ever has the right to kill Hamas terrorists?

Certainly they do... annihilate the ******* moronic terrorists.

But... Israel is not doing that... the leadership of Hamas are all in Qatar RIGHT NOW luxuriating in 7-stars hotels... while Israel is obliterating the poor people those venal terrorists also terrorize.

Why doesn't Israel go kill them there... one bomber would achieve that... or send in a few Mossad agents... they certainly have scores there already.

The answer... is because then Israel would lose the EXCUSE it needs to carry out the Sippenhaftung necessary for accomplishing its own version of the FINAL SOLUTION.

 

[Leumas]

No. When it comes to human shields in warfare, who is the murderer and who isn't is defined by the Geneva Conventions, International Humanitarian Law, and other agreements in international law.

Using human shields is a war crime. Proportional attacks on military targets hiding behind human shields is not a war crime. The reasons why this is a good idea should be obvious, but here we are.

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

 

[Leumas]

Civil crime is fundamentally different than war.

So the chronic serial killer can retroactively declare war on his victims and then proceed to justify and defend his latest killing as defending himself and just a retaliation for the war crime committed by the criminal who cut off the killer's leg while trying to escape the torture chamber the serial killer was holding him in?

 

[Ziggurat]

So the chronic serial killer can retroactively declare war on his victims

You cannot honestly be this stupid.

 

[Ziggurat]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

If the law does not recognize this as war, then the law is an ass. This is war. Morally, practically, strategically, it's war. I'm not going to call it anything else on some technicality.

 

[Leumas]

You cannot honestly be this stupid.

If you can be, I can also be in response to yours... or are you the only one allowed to be so?

 

[Leumas]

If the law does not recognize this as war, then the law is an ass. This is war. Morally, practically, strategically, it's war. I'm not going to call it anything else on some technicality.

Yes... that is the chronic serial Killer's defense too.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes... that is the chronic serial Killer's defense too.

No, it really isn't. A typical serial killer defense is simply, "I didn't do it".

Do you always just make **** up? Never mind, to ask is to answer.

 

[Hercules56]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

Concentration camps don't have malls, fancy hotels, beaches and expensive houses.

Gaza does. Well they did, until Hamas decided to murder 1,300 Israelis in one day.

 

[Leumas]

No, it really isn't.

Yes really it is.

A typical serial killer defense is simply, "I didn't do it".

What about an atypical one?

Do you always just make **** up? Never mind, to ask is to answer.

Ah so you are the only one who is allowed to

just make **** up?

Why do you always deny for others what you yourself do... is there a special reason you feel that you are entitled to do things that you decry when others do them??

Never mind, to ask is to answer.

 

[Ziggurat]

What about an atypical one?

What about one? Why do you care what excuses serial killers might make? Do you think that somehow matters? No, it doesn't. A serial killer claiming his killings are war doesn't make them war.

Ah so you are the only one who is allowed to

I haven't made up anything. Perhaps you think I have, but you're just really bad at making arguments, and so can't recognize them either.

 

[The Atheist]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.

The humanitarian group said its teams treated a paramedic on Thursday morning who was shot inside an ambulance, while Israeli army vehicles blocked ambulances from accessing hospitals.

An Israeli soldier fired at the emergency unit of a hospital on Wednesday night, “hitting the wall in full view of our colleagues who were standing outside”, MSF said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

 

[theprestige]

What Israel is doing is not a war... not by the definition of any International anything.

You cannot have a war on people you are occupying and are confining in concentration camps.

The Nazis were not having a war against the European Jews.... and if as has taken place all over the occupied territories the Nazis occupied, some Jewish resistance killed Germans and Nazis... no one on earth would justify the Nazis' Sippenhaftung on the victims of the concentration camps they long before created, as just the outcome of the WAR the Nazi declared on the Jews in retaliation for the acts of those saboteurs and terrorists.

I'm satisfied that the principles of collateral damage outlined in International Humanitarian Law are equally applicable to other hostage and human shield scenarios. Even the concept of "military value" is easily translated to, say, a hostage situation in a prison break. The ethics, of balancing the risk of harm to the hostage against the risk of other harm if the hostage-taker is not defeated, are a solved problem. If you won't (or can't) apply the principles of distinction, military necessity, and proportionality to Hamas's use of human shields, that's your problem, not mine. Not Israel's.

If you need to reason from first principles to your own coherent ethical framework, for how to deal with human shields when engaged in a violent conflict with an unethical enemy, take your time. But I'm not going to hold your hand or wait around for you to figure it out. Get back to me once you know what you're conclusions are, and how you reached them.

 

[theprestige]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

There's a reason combatants masquerading as medics is a war crime. Because once you do it once, your opponent is forced to assume you're doing it every time. There's a good reason Israel is stopping and searching ambulances. The harm to innocents arising from this necessity is entirely Hamas's fault.

Either I'm going to dismiss MSF as knowing propagandists, or as useful idiots. You tell me: are they informed scumbags, or just really stupid?

 

[webfusion]

Feel free to dismiss Médecins Sans Frontières as terrorist propaganda.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/9/israel-gaza-war-live-day-34

If they wish to operate in Gaza, they must behave along party lines and not antagonize Hamas in any way.
Civilian (Red Crescent) ambulances are at the disposal of combatants. This is precisely what captured Hamas men have admitted. If alQuds Childrens' hospital is out of fuel to run their generators, then perhaps the most vital thing they can do is request an evacuation by IDF, and transfer their operations to a well-equipped field hospital or hospital ship offshore, both of which the International community have sent to help.

Also, from the looks of things (many photos show) there are a lot of Palestinian children without shoes.
Can we please start a donation drive for kids' shoes?

Oy Vey, the Gazans are extremely fortunate that no rain has fallen this month yet.
Once the skies open up and drench the ruins, and flood the tent cities, it'll be a whole 'nother level of crisis for these people. Not to mention the mosquitos that will thrive in every little nook of standing water and cause havoc of their own.

 

[webfusion]

Concentration camps don't have malls, fancy hotels, beaches and expensive houses.

Gaza does. Well they did, until Hamas decided to murder 1,300 Israelis in one day.

The people of Gaza used to also have a beautiful International Air Terminal, with the Jordanian kingdom being one of the primary carriers operating flights. I recall that Palestine Airlines had 2 Fokker50 aircraft in their fleet. (In 2020, the company was put into liquidation).

 

[The Atheist]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

 

[webfusion]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

You must be referring to the hundreds of thousands of protestors in the streets of NY, LA, London, Paris, (and those red hands of the useful idiots in Fort Worth, Texas, who don't even know of the 2000 Ramallah lynch, now THERE was an atrocity that I'm sure they didn't intend to compare themselves to, but they did).
All of them are saying that HAMAS perpetrating those 10-7 atrocities was justified, because Palestine must be Free (judenrein) From the River to the Sea. Ipso facto, doing what they did is certainly proper and fine & dandy.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.
calling it a War is a deliberate cheat to hide behind rules of conflict that are not applicable.

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back - people should be embarrassed that they keep on making this argument.

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

 

[lionking]

it's not a war - it's an anti-terrorist action. Only one side is a State Actor.
calling it a War is a deliberate cheat to hide behind rules of conflict that are not applicable.

And just because your opponent commits atrocities DOES NOT give you the right to commit atrocities right back - people should be embarrassed that they keep on making this argument.

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

Back in the real world, what would the US or any other country with military capability have done in the same circumstances?

As I have said previously, Israel showed uncommon restraint in its response to terrorism. Other countries would have attacked in a heartbeat.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Back in the real world, what would the US or any other country with military capability have done in the same circumstances?

As I have said previously, Israel showed uncommon restraint in its response to terrorism. Other countries would have attacked in a heartbeat.

we know what the US did do, in Mosul, for example - 20,000 civilian deaths at least.
But at least they had the will to stay put and try to make things better.
Netanyahu is on record saying that he has no such plan.

And no, there is not much restraint visible from anyone but the very pro-Israel media here.
And what we see is the result of massive US pressure.

 

[lionking]

we know what the US did do, in Mosul, for example - 20,000 civilian deaths at least.
But at least they had the will to stay put and try to make things better.
Netanyahu is on record saying that he has no such plan.

And no, there is not much restraint visible from anyone but the very pro-Israel media here.
And what we see is the result of massive US pressure.

Wow. I never thought that IS attacked the US and killed over 1000 US citizens. Learn something new each day…..

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Wow. I never thought that IS attacked the US and killed over 1000 US citizens. Learn something new each day…..

I'm sorry.
is your argument that the US had no legitimacy to fight the IS?

You asked what the US would have done - and we know that from 9/11 - and it is weird that I have to spell this out, as the current conflict is being compared to the aftermath of 9/11 all the time.

The fight of Mosul happened under the same authorization that allowed the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place, namely to prevent another 9/11 by stamping out the support for terrorists.

This is the claim of Israel why they bomb and invade Gaza: to stamp out a terrorist organization, namely Hamas, to protect their home country.
And we know, but you didn't realize, what the US did in response when in the same situation with the same rationalization.

Do you think it was right was the US did, and do you think it's right what the IDF is doing?
And don't you think there are some lessons that should have been learned by now?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The very best argument you can make is from a "end justifies the means" perspective, but that would require Israel to formulate and publicize a plan for what comes after that would lead to a much better outcome for Israeli and Gazans alike.
Retaliation for its own sake IS NOT A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE !

Netanyahu has already said that Israel will not occupy or govern Gaza once the military action has ended.
It seems the plan- from what he's said, and from what the US has said- is to give control to the Palestinian Authority, and establish a civilian, non-terrorist and hopefully more democratic government in Gaza.
Sounds entirely reasonable to me.

 

[lionking]

I'm sorry.
is your argument that the US had no legitimacy to fight the IS?

You asked what the US would have done - and we know that from 9/11 - and it is weird that I have to spell this out, as the current conflict is being compared to the aftermath of 9/11 all the time.

The fight of Mosul happened under the same authorization that allowed the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place, namely to prevent another 9/11 by stamping out the support for terrorists.

This is the claim of Israel why they bomb and invade Gaza: to stamp out a terrorist organization, namely Hamas, to protect their home country.
And we know, but you didn't realize, what the US did in response when in the same situation with the same rationalization.

Do you think it was right was the US did, and do you think it's right what the IDF is doing?
And don't you think there are some lessons that should have been learned by now?

That already long bow just stretched beyond breaking point.

 

[Nessie]

No, that's not my argument at all. Don't put words in my mouth.

Remember that, when you make claims about what others have said.

 

[Nessie]

I had to open the link to even understand that what you were describing/claiming is NOT a poll of Israeli attitudes, but rather, the UK.

A bit dishonest, if you ask me, but whatever...

As for a ceasefire in-place, has it not occurred to anyone that once such a thing happens (and it will, eventually) the Israelis may just say, OK, we're here, you're over there. We're going to erect a fenceline along the ceasefire 'borders' (armistice lines) and call it a day.

That's what happened in 1949.
(Rhodes Ceasefire)

The only place where that split between the public who want a ceasefire and the government who wants to fight may not exist, is Israel.

 

[Nessie]

The UK public would do the dying in a war between Israel and Gaza? What nonsense are you trying to peddle, here?

Look at all the pro-Palestinian, calls for a ceasefire, protests around the world. The people want the fighting to stop, only governments support the continued fighting.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

That already long bow just stretched beyond breaking point.

you might think it's too late to learn from history.

I don't, I'm not that cynical.

 

[Leumas]

It's always so gratifying to see people justifying atrocities.

It is only an atrocity if it is done on the person who says it is an atrocity...

But... if he is doing the very same acts onto others, then it is a Retaliation... or Justified Collateral Damage... or it is their fault for using human shields... or... they brought it upon themselves for being such savages and inhuman animals.

When the Nazi killed European Jews... they were doing genocide and a holocaust...

When European Jews kill Palestinians it is "mowing the grass" in retaliation for the crimes of those savages... and in any case those inhuman animals deserve all the wrath of YHWH because they dared deny his Settler Colonial decree for his chosen Netanyahu and his ilk of Zionists.

 

[Leumas]

What about one? Why do you care what excuses serial killers might make?

Israel is one such atypical serial killer.

Do you think that somehow matters? No, it doesn't.

The all but countless Palestinians victims that Israel killed and the others in its dungeons would beg to vehemently differ.

A serial killer claiming his killings are war doesn't make them war.

Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killers ever in the history of such psychopaths.

 

[webfusion]

*snip*
...Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killer ever of the history of such psychopaths.

Yeah, sure, Benjamin Netanyahu (Benzion Mileikowsky) will rise above Genghis Khan and Ivan the Terrible. (Whose favorite execution methods included boiling alive, impalement, being roasted over an open fire or being torn limb from limb by horses.)

 

[Hercules56]

It is only an atrocity if it is done on the person who says it is an atrocity...

But... if he is doing the very same acts onto others, then it is a Retaliation... or Justified Collateral Damage... or it is their fault for using human shields... or... they brought it upon themselves for being such savages and inhuman animals.

When the Nazi killed European Jews... they were doing genocide and a holocaust...

When European Jews kill Palestinians it is "mowing the grass" in retaliation for the crimes of those savages... and in any case those inhuman animals deserve all the wrath of YHWH because they dared deny his Settler Colonial decree for his chosen Netanyahu and his ilk of Zionists.

There would be many less dead Palestinian Arabs if they abandoned violence and committed to nonviolent resistance. If they had done this years ago they were probably already have a state for themselves.

 

[Leumas]

...Palestinian Arabs...

yup...

 

[Hercules56]

yup...

Yup...what?

 

[Ziggurat]

Israel is one such atypical serial killer.

That's like saying people are whales because we're mammals that swim and eat fish.

Israel is a state. Calling a state, any state, a serial killer is just stupid. They aren't the same. And if the totality of your conception of morality is that all bad things are the same, you would be an idiot.

Don't be an idiot. You can say Israel does terrible things without having to resort to absurdity.

The all but countless Palestinians victims that Israel killed and the others in its dungeons would beg to vehemently differ.

Wow, you're really bad at this. The most charitable interpretation I can make of this is you simply lost track of what was being discussed, because if you didn't, then you're saying that Palestinians care if atypical serial killers plead in defense that they were engaged in acts of war.

No, they don't. Nobody gives a **** what serial killers plead in defense. People care what they actually did.

Exactly... go tell that to Netanyahu one of the most hideous mass murdering serial killers ever in the history of such psychopaths.

The historical ignorance on display is staggering in its scale.

You know what group kills by far the most Muslims and Arabs?

It's not the Jews. It's not the USA.

It's other Muslims and Arabs.

This is a ******* drop in the bucket compared to the bloodshed muslim-on-muslim violence has spilled. The Yemen civil war, which is still ongoing, has killed around 377,000 people. But it wasn't Jews who did it, so you don't care.

War is brutal. Innocent lives are lost and ruined. But war is what Hamas wanted. War is what Hamas chose.