Forum Financial Data & Donations

The Atheist said:
... some organisations should display a higher standard of ethics than others.
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See. this is the part that still confuses me, even after going back and re-reading the entire thread. As far as I can tell, TA isn't even really making a complaint; he's just going to great lengths to make it appear as if he's making a complaint.

No, seriously. What's the complaint?

What, exactly, is the ethical standard that TA has in mind here; and what, exactly, would constitute compliance with that standard?
 
Sorry, Mr. C, I will nip back in and get this one:

remirol said:
Yes, as the JREF also does. Again, are you referring to something other than a 990?

If so, then what?
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Again, this is quite simple:

The JREF files a 990, but as you quite rightly state:

remirol said:
The forum has no income.
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In the case of the christian forum, they have published the forum financial data.
 
The Atheist said:
The JREF files a 990, but as you quite rightly state:

In the case of the christian forum, they have published the forum financial data.
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So they've done up a spreadsheet and stuck it on the web, and Mr Clingford expects me to treat that with the same trust as I do a 990?

I think not.
 
OK. The board owners talk frequently on the site and in a recent thread it has come out that they are in need of money to keep it going - they are English and so find it difficult to mention this fact.
 
remirol said:
Are you literate?
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I am... at least sorta...

However, despite reading all of this and other 'associated' threads, I have no eyed deer what all the fuss is about... and I have a hunch its cos the main protagonists are being far too cryptic - for me at least

remirol said:
The forum has no income. The JREF has income.
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OK... this is an easy concept to grasp... hell, I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer and I get it

However... WTF?

With advertising, the forum generates income and, unless there's a miracle at work - incurs expenses

@TA
Reading these threads I am becoming increasingly confuzzled
I have a couple of sincere questions that might help turn the tide

  • What info do you want/expect to be publicly displayed?

  • Why?

TYIA :)
 
Mr Clingford said:
OK. The board owners talk frequently on the site and in a recent thread it has come out that they are in need of money to keep it going - they are English and so find it difficult to mention this fact.
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Which would indicate (presuming the board owners are telling the truth, of course) that whatever ad revenue forum pageviews generate is either being used for other purposes than maintaining the forum (not uncommon), or is not enough to offset the expenditures required to keep the forum going (also not uncommon, ad revenue is low).

However, I note that it doesn't appear to include what TA implied, which is a _full_ disclosure of the state of finances; it just is a rough estimate, ie. "We ain't makin' what we need to."
 
six7s said:
With advertising, the forum generates income and, unless there's a miracle at work - incurs expenses
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No, the forum has no income - we've agreed on that, so there are only expenses.

six7s said:
@TA
Reading these threads I am becoming increasingly confuzzled
I have a couple of sincere questions that might help turn the tide

  • What info do you want/expect to be publicly displayed?
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I had asked for the forum income details, but since there is no income, I clearly asked a very silly question.

Had there been income, I would have been interested in knowing what it was, especially from advertising.

six7s said:
  • Why?

TYIA :)
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It all started when I was researching some advertising costs and the christian forum just happened to post its earnings in public at the same time. I have been in e mail correspondence with them as they have answered a range of questions I put to them and wondered if the JREF would be as open as they were.

The answer to that is a resounding "No".
 
NobbyNobbs said:
I'm amazed no one else caught this. I can't stop laughing. Is TA suggesting a JREF conspiracy? If so, can I nominate this for a Stundie?
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You can easily check my posts to see if I have collected a warning for off-topic posting (I have), so your idea makes no sense at all. If trying not to be suspended after a warning is suggestive of a conspiracy theory, then I'll plead guilty to that as well.
 
remirol said:
Which would indicate (presuming the board owners are telling the truth, of course) that whatever ad revenue forum pageviews generate is either being used for other purposes than maintaining the forum (not uncommon), or is not enough to offset the expenditures required to keep the forum going (also not uncommon, ad revenue is low).

However, I note that it doesn't appear to include what TA implied, which is a _full_ disclosure of the state of finances; it just is a rough estimate, ie. "We ain't makin' what we need to."
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Well, they did produce a pdf, which mentions money spent on accountancy, but I suppose they could have made up that as well. Seriously, I think there is at least one Xtian website which isn't on the make. I know. Get out of town. It's not possible.
 
Mr Clingford said:
Well, they did produce a pdf, which mentions money spent on accountancy, but I suppose they could have made up that as well. Seriously, I think there is at least one Xtian website which isn't on the make. I know. Get out of town. It's not possible.
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They could indeed have, yes. Hence the word "presuming", which carries certain connotations as well as its literal meaning.

That said, I find it interesting that you didn't simply respond to my earlier request:

me said:
Are you referring to something else? If so, what?
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with either a link to the PDF or a statement that it existed, along with precisely what line-items it contains that might be relevant to this discussion.

However, it looks like TA has finally admitted that he doesn't have a complaint after all, so there isn't much point in chasing down the gruesome details any further -- there are no questions left to be answered that I see.
 
The reason I didn't provide a link is that I didn't know where it was. I had to ask on the forum and until someone provided a link to the pdf I had only my and TA's memory to go - a frightening proposition!
 
The Atheist said:
It all started when I was researching some advertising costs and the christian forum just happened to post its earnings in public at the same time. I have been in e mail correspondence with them as they have answered a range of questions I put to them and wondered if the JREF would be as open as they were.

The answer to that is a resounding "No".
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Okay, so I have some questions:

1. In what subforum would you like me to start a thread, where you can substantiate your claim about some other forum's openness?

2. If such a thread were started, would you post to it with substantiation of your claim, or simply use it to continue the current discussion of your non-issue?

3. Is there a specific minimum standard of openness that you would prefer to see from web-based forums?

4. If so, do you think the JREF forums meet this standard, or not?
 
The Atheist said:
You can easily check my posts to see if I have collected a warning for off-topic posting (I have), so your idea makes no sense at all. If trying not to be suspended after a warning is suggestive of a conspiracy theory, then I'll plead guilty to that as well.
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You miss my point completely. First of all, off-topic posting has nothing at all to do with what I was saying.

You were asked if you were literate. You answered "no". I found this funny, because

lit-er-ate n. 1. One who can read and write. 2. A well-informed, educated person.


The reason I asked about conspiracies is because Stundies can only be nominated if they are connected to a conspiracy. I asked if your implication that JREF is hiding its financial information is considered a conspiracy. Never mind, though. It's not worth it.



Sigh. I can't believe I had to explain that.
 
theprestige said:
Okay, so I have some questions:

1. In what subforum would you like me to start a thread, where you can substantiate your claim about some other forum's openness?
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Don't ask me, I'm not a moderator - so take your pick and send me a link.

theprestige said:
2. If such a thread were started, would you post to it with substantiation of your claim, or simply use it to continue the current discussion of your non-issue?
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I'll certainly post to it. As you can see, there's nothing further to discuss here and apart from bumping this thread every month or so, I doubt I'll post much more to it.

theprestige said:
3. Is there a specific minimum standard of openness that you would prefer to see from web-based forums?
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No.

theprestige said:
4. If so, do you think the JREF forums meet this standard, or not?
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[/QUOTE]

Doesn't apply.

NobbyNobbs said:
You miss my point completely.
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Nope. It just wasn't a point or relevant.

theprestige said:
The reason I asked about conspiracies is because Stundies can only be nominated if they are connected to a conspiracy. I asked if your implication that JREF is hiding its financial information is considered a conspiracy.
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Aside from it being a fairly stupid question, I did answer it and haven't made any implication that a conspiracy exists, so it's something completely within your own mind.

If you want to go down that path, it will be a lonely walk.
 
The Atheist said:
Aside from it being a fairly stupid question, I did answer it and haven't made any implication that a conspiracy exists, so it's something completely within your own mind.

If you want to go down that path, it will be a lonely walk.
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Please re-check your attribution; I never raised the question of conspiracy.
 
Jeff Wagg said:

A couple of years ago, we raised $10,000 from generous forum members to move to a new server. And we DID that.. and we spent MORE than $10,000 to do so. Now, we're on a completely different and newer server, that's running gangbusters, and we didnt' ask for ANY money from the forum community.
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So on the one hand they tell us they don't keep track of money raised from the forum, and yet here we have an obvious contradiction. They know exactly how much they raised from forum members, and how much they spent on the forum.

Hmmmm.
 
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Luke T. said:
Jeff Wagg said:



So on the one hand they tell us they don't keep track of money raised from the forum, and yet here we have an obvious contradiction. They know exactly how much they raised, and how much they spent on the forum.

Hmmmm.
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hmmmm.... indeed ....
I wonder how on earth they calculated how much they raised from the forum, from a campaign where a specific target amount was requested only from forum members, and the income from members who responded was gathered in a specific manner.

:rolleyes:
 
chillzero said:
hmmmm.... indeed ....
I wonder how on earth they calculated how much they raised from the forum, from a campaign where a specific target amount was requested only from forum members, and the income from members who responded was gathered in a specific manner.

:rolleyes:
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Not to mention the intellectually dishonest conflation of tenses here, where he compares specific unusual events from several years ago with current practice.
 
chillzero said:
hmmmm.... indeed ....
I wonder how on earth they calculated how much they raised from the forum, from a campaign where a specific target amount was requested only from forum members, and the income from members who responded was gathered in a specific manner.

:rolleyes:
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You ever get the feeling you're being watched?

Anyway, you are describing the very process I invented here, chillzero. We knew exactly to the penny how much money was raised for the telethon I started.

So there is forum financial information available. It just isn't complete.
 
remirol said:
Not to mention the intellectually dishonest conflation of tenses here, where he compares specific unusual events from several years ago with current practice.
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I'll wager you the practice is nearly identical today as it was when I first did it. If it isn't, it is less efficient than my method was. Like I said a moment ago, we knew to the penny how much was raised from the fundraising effort.

I verified six ways to Sunday what money was coming in, and from where, and from who, and for what. I was on the phone with Linda during the entire period several times a day.
 
Luke T. said:
I'll wager you the practice is nearly identical today as it was when I first did it.
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Have you read the rest of the threads on this subject at all?

If it isn't, it is less efficient than my method was. Like I said a moment ago, we knew to the penny how much was raised from the fundraising effort.

I verified six ways to Sunday what money was coming in, and from where, and from who, and for what.
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Again, you did this for a specific unusual event -- donations being solicited specifically for the forum upgrade, at a specific point in time.

This is not, however, the subject under discussion, as anyone reading this and prior threads would know; the subject has been both the "paypal" donation button on the forums (not tracked as specifically coming from the forums, per other technical information given), and JREF ad revenue from randi.org (also not tracked).
 
The simple truth is that any money raised by way of the forum goes into the same big pot that money raised from any other source goes in. I'm sure if the JREF was audited, they would have financial information available down to the penny for "donations" but any description of whether that donation came in by way of the forum or by way of a walk-in off the street would probably not be available.

They probably have more accurate data about money raised by way of TAMs.

But if you were to ask Randi how much the forum makes or loses for him, he'd probably not be able to tell you.

They could if they wanted to. They just don't want to.
 
remirol said:
Have you read the rest of the threads on this subject at all?



Again, you did this for a specific unusual event -- donations being solicited specifically for the forum upgrade, at a specific point in time.

This is not, however, the subject under discussion, as anyone reading this and prior threads would know; the subject has been both the "paypal" donation button on the forums (not tracked as specifically coming from the forums, per other technical information given), and JREF ad revenue from randi.org (also not tracked).
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The subject is the "forum's financial performance". To which TA was referred to "JREF's finances".
 
It is obvious the root question is whether or not the forum is a moneymaker or loser for JREF.
 
Even if it is a moneymaker, the forum is a negligible one for JREF. When we did the first big telethon, JREF had a monthly expense of $10,000. So our $4800 (I think it was around that much) didn't even keep JREF running for two weeks.

Even a $10,000 fundraiser only keeps JREF running for a month, maybe less these days.

So if you consider these fundraisers are rare events and raise only enough to run JREF for a few weeks, then it isn't hard to figure out the entire forum's financial impact on JREF on a day to day basis is near zero.

So if you stop paying your dues, no tears are going to be lost.
 
So I hope that answers all your forum financial performance questions for this month.
 
Luke T. said:
The simple truth is that any money raised by way of the forum goes into the same big pot that money raised from any other source goes in. I'm sure if the JREF was audited, they would have financial information available down to the penny for "donations" but any description of whether that donation came in by way of the forum or by way of a walk-in off the street would probably not be available.
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Then we're in agreement, as that's exactly what I've said earlier in this thread and others have said elsewhere.

It would certainly be _possible_ to generate more accurate data, but the current configuration does not do so; the data would only be available for the future.
 
Luke T. said:
So I hope that answers all your forum financial performance questions for this month.
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I'm pretty sure the only person in this thread who actually had any forum financial performance questions was The Atheist. Unfortunately, he never actually got around to asking those questions, and since seems to have abandoned the entire line of inquiry. So I'm not sure who you're addressing, here.
 
Luke T. said:
As did I, but my post got split off. Weird, ain't? And here you been arguing with me about something we both agree on because of it.
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:dl:

Classic.

It's a pity we hate each other's guts, Luke, because we do agree on a few things.

theprestige said:
I'm pretty sure the only person in this thread who actually had any forum financial performance questions was The Atheist. Unfortunately, he never actually got around to asking those questions,....
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Don't be bloody ridiculous.

The OP starts with:

Is there any chance we could have the financial information of the forum made available?

You might not understand the question, but it is exceedingly plain.

The answers to it so far have been:

Income - donations. Do not know.

Income - advertising - not stated.
 
The Atheist said:
Can you expand on the question a little, because I just find "So what" to be a bit open.

"So what", in relation to which what?
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You have assembled some information.

So what are you going to do with this information? Is it just information you have collected for the sake of collecting information? Is it information that leads you to a conclusion? Is it information that leads you to new questions?

And since you saw fit to make a thread about this, instead of sticking to private correspondence with JREF, what would you have us do with this information? You said you'd be bumping the thread every month or so, but why? What do you hope to accomplish, what conclusions would you like us to reach, by keeping this thread on or near the front page of this forum?

In short, so what?
 
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