Forum Financial Data & Donations

[The Atheist]

I think I would find Darat's speculations to be somewhat more believable than yours.

Except Darat didn't speculate - he was quite clear, it's Cleon and others who have indulged in speculation.

So you're not accepting it because you don't want to accept it. I'm sure that's working well for you.

Shall we just check what Darat posted in this very thread then?

I suggest you try contacting the JREF directly for such information - no one on the Mod team has access to that type of information.

(bolding mine)

 

[Cleon]

Except Darat didn't speculate - he was quite clear, it's Cleon and others who have indulged in speculation.

Giving you facts you don't want to hear is not the same as "speculation."

Shall we just check what Darat posted in this very thread then?

(bolding mine)

Since that does nothing to refute anything I have said, it's completely irrelevant.

At the end of the day, though, all your bullster and lame attempts at condescension won't matter one bit. You're not going to get the information you want, and the only person who's going to wonder why is you.

 

[The Atheist]

Since that does nothing to refute anything I have said, it's completely irrelevant.

False.

You claimed the information doesn't exist, Darat stated that he doesn't know.

The two are quite incompatible, but again, no surprise you'd choose to ignore that obvious fact.

At the end of the day,...

The sun goes down. Nice use of hopelessly out-of-date cliche!

though, all your bullster and lame attempts at condescension won't matter one bit.

That's true, especially if you're the one discussing it, since you have no facts and no authority.

You're not going to get the information you want, and the only person who's going to wonder why is you.

No, I don't wonder at all, but the sad news for JREF is that quite a few other people are indeed wondering why a simple request has used up four pages without reply.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

We don't know that specific donation information exists relating to forum donors vs JREF donors, but I think it's likely that it does. Someone running an organisation largely on donations would naturally like to know where the income comes from.

Assumption.

Along with that, there's a far simpler method of showing approximate donation income, if the actuals aren't available. Take the usual donation amount - which I would guess is reasonably constant - and subtract the last one with no forum donation button from the first one since its placement.

It won't be precise, but would give an indication.

Speculation.

I'm pretty sure that Darat, as a volunteer forum administrator, would not have access to JREF's accounting systems, ergo, he is speculating.

Speculation about someone speculating. Pretty cool.

 

[The Atheist]

Assumption.

Yes, I did say that "it's likely" which was a pretty good guide that I don't know.

Speculation.

No, there's no speculation involved at all. It's pretty simple to deduct one number from another.

Speculation about someone speculating. Pretty cool.

Hardly. Refer to Darat's quote 7 posts back. He was quite unequivocal.

 

[Cleon]

Sorry, but that's exactly what you claimed. I stated that you had no authority and you said that my statement was false - that means that you do have authority, although I'm pleased to see you've given that lie up at the moment.

Sorry, but no. You didn't say "authority to speak on behalf of JREF." You said "authority." And I do have authority.

My authority is my professional expertise in web site development. Authority you completely lack, but tried to bullster your way over that inconvenient point.

(Oh, is that not what you meant by "authority?" Should've been more specific.)

I can tell you beyond any doubt whatsoever that the web site does not collect the information you seek. Is it possible to collect that information? Yes. Is the site doing it now? No. No, it is not.

That is not "speculation." That is cold, hard, fact.

No, I don't need access to JREF's accounting system to know that; I know you refuse to accept that, but it remains true regardless. I can tell you that simply from looking at the information that's sent to PayPal when you click the "donate" button--information that does not include anything about whether the user came from the forum or not. If PayPal doesn't know the user came from the forum, then when it sends the "transaction completed" information back to the JREF site, there is no way for the JREF site to know it came from the forum.


That's reality. Those are the facts. You can accept them or not. If you do, bully for you for (finally) admitting you don't know what you're talking about. If you don't, good luck with your new religion.

The really pathetic thing is, if you knew half as much about this as you like to think you do, you would already know this.

Good plan, quit while you're behind.

Trying to manufacture reality yet again, I see.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Yes, I did say that "it's likely" which was a pretty good guide that I don't know.

I'm just saying, you shouldn't complain about other people making assumptions if you're going to do it yourself.

No, there's no speculation involved at all. It's pretty simple to deduct one number from another.

Take a look again. I've bolded the part where you are speculating, to make it easier to pick out:

Take the usual donation amount - which I would guess is reasonably constant - and subtract the last one with no forum donation button from the first one since its placement.

Hardly. Refer to Darat's quote 7 posts back. He was quite unequivocal.

Once again, I will point out exactly what I'm talking about.

You said

I'm pretty sure that Darat, as a volunteer forum administrator, would not have access to JREF's accounting systems, ergo, he is speculating.

I said,

Speculation about someone speculating. Pretty cool.

which you seem to disagree with, by claiming he was unequivocal. Yet you are the one who said he was speculating! To wit:

"I'm pretty sure that..."
Speculating...

"...ergo, he is speculating."
..about someone speculating.

I repeat: Pretty cool.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Sorry, but no. You didn't say "authority to speak on behalf of JREF." You said "authority." And I do have authority.

My authority is my professional expertise in web site development. Authority you completely lack, but tried to bullster your way over that inconvenient point.

(Oh, is that not what you meant by "authority?" Should've been more specific.)

I can tell you beyond any doubt whatsoever that the web site does not collect the information you seek. Is it possible to collect that information? Yes. Is the site doing it now? No. No, it is not.

That is not "speculation." That is cold, hard, fact.

No, I don't need access to JREF's accounting system to know that; I know you refuse to accept that, but it remains true regardless. I can tell you that simply from looking at the information that's sent to PayPal when you click the "donate" button--information that does not include anything about whether the user came from the forum or not. If PayPal doesn't know the user came from the forum, then when it sends the "transaction completed" information back to the JREF site, there is no way for the JREF site to know it came from the forum.


That's reality. Those are the facts. You can accept them or not. If you do, bully for you for (finally) admitting you don't know what you're talking about. If you don't, good luck with your new religion.

The really pathetic thing is, if you knew half as much about this as you like to think you do, you would already know this.

Trying to manufacture reality yet again, I see.

As I understand it, it doesn't matter whether it's dollars, rubles, euros, or even llamas. It has nothing to do with finance at all, and everything to do with the way data flows. Correct?

I know nothing about finance, and even less about the web, and yet even I understand this concept. Atheist, what is there about Cleon's explanation or expertise that you don't agree with? Why do you insist on hearing it from an "official" JREF representative?

 

[Darat]

Yep

Perhaps you'd like to check your facts again?

False.

It is possible that the JREF may not know where the data comes from, but that it can be done is no longer in dispute.

...snip...

Unless you are now saying that your request was for future information you are trying to conflate two different things.

Unless, of course, you are advising, as a JREF employee, that you have access to the financial system and that the information does not exist. If so, please clarify.

I need no access to the JREF's financial information or systems, all I need is the access to the server that I have had since about 2004. I know exactly exactly how the "Donate to the JREF click here" button and the page it links to works.

The specific information you requested, which was about past donations, simply does not exist.

 

[Darat]

...snip...


Shall we just check what Darat posted in this very thread then?

(bolding mine)

Again you are trying to conflate two different things. That response was to your original general enquiry about financial information:

"...Is there any chance we could have the financial information of the forum made available?..."​

And as I said you will need to contact the JREF to get that information.

When the discussion moved to be about more specific information, I posted this:

...snip..

See the "Donate to JREF" button at the top of every page? Do the mods not get that coming up?

...snip...

The "Donate to the JREF click here" takes you to the standard JREF donation page. It's not asking for a donation directly for the Forum and there is no way to even mark the donation as "coming from the Forum".

And that statement was and is 100% correct. That is not speculation since I know exactly how the donate button and the page it links to has worked since it was created. (For full disclosure I've not checked since I made that statement so it may have been changed since then.)

 

[The Atheist]

And that statement was and is 100% correct. That is not speculation since I know exactly how the donate button and the page it links to has worked since it was created. (For full disclosure I've not checked since I made that statement so it may have been changed since then.)

Ok, now that you've clarified it, I'll accept it as I doubt it's been changed in the past few days.

I have to repeat that I'm somewhat surprised that an organisation reliant on donor income doesn't track where donations come from.

We'll just wait in vain for the rest of the information.

 

[Morrigan]

My authority is my professional expertise in web site development.

Allow me once again to chip in as another person with such professional expertise, and to completely second your entire post.

I can tell you beyond any doubt whatsoever that the web site does not collect the information you seek. Is it possible to collect that information? Yes. Is the site doing it now? No. No, it is not.

That is not "speculation." That is cold, hard, fact.

Yep.

No, I don't need access to JREF's accounting system to know that;

Indeed, which is something The Atheist refuses to acknowledge for some mysterious reason.

As I understand it, it doesn't matter whether it's dollars, rubles, euros, or even llamas. It has nothing to do with finance at all, and everything to do with the way data flows. Correct?

Yes.

I know nothing about finance, and even less about the web, and yet even I understand this concept. Atheist, what is there about Cleon's explanation or expertise that you don't agree with? Why do you insist on hearing it from an "official" JREF representative?

I have my own theory: perhaps he's trying to role-play Claus?

 

[chillzero]

I have moved a load of off topic posts, and a lot of bickering out of the thread. Stop making the thread about each other, and stick to the topic. Keep it civil, and keep it on topic, or next time I'll be back with yellow cards, or other moderation actions.

The topic - JREF forum financial data.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Luke T.]

Here is some forum financial data provided by Jeff Wagg in another topic:

Since I've been here, the JREF has spent far more on server costs than the forum has ever brought in.

A couple of years ago, we raised $10,000 from generous forum members to move to a new server. And we DID that.. and we spent MORE than $10,000 to do so. Now, we're on a completely different and newer server, that's running gangbusters, and we didnt' ask for ANY money from the forum community.

 

[The Atheist]

Here is some forum financial data provided by Jeff Wagg in another topic:

Yes, I saw that.

It's not very helpful, however, since it covers a historical time when the forum didn't have ads.

Saying that it used to cost more than it brought in is all very well, but it maybe raises the question as to how much money is being brought in now. Going by the amounts claimed by the christian forum, I'd be surprised if the ad revenue wasn't pretty spectacular.

 

[theprestige]

I'm pretty sure that Darat, as a volunteer forum administrator, would not have access to JREF's accounting systems, ergo, he is speculating.

That's funny. As someone who administers forums professionally for a living, including several forums using the same software the JREF uses, I'm pretty sure that...

... As a forum administrator, it's extremely likely that Darat would know quite a bit about the underlying OS, and the scripts and other connectors that link the forum to, say, a financial tracking system.

I don't need access to my employer's accounting systems, to know whether or not the forums I support connect to them, and what kinds of information gets passed to them from those forums.

All you're doing here is assuming and speculating, which apparently are cardinal sins when they result in conclusions different from yours, but are the height of rational inquiry when they support your opinions.

 

[six7s]

As you can see, I don't post a lot, but

After reading this thread and The Atheist's contribution, as a New Zealander, can I just take this opportunity to apologise on behalf of the entire population of this country, for giving him access to the internet.

No, you can't... simply because I, for one, don't share the sentiment

Sure, there have been (and will, probably, continue to be) times when I wish that TA would STFU - and on occasion I say so

However, I can sincerely say that I feel that TA's net worth is in the black

 

[remirol]

Going by the amounts claimed by the christian forum,

And you believed them?

 

[The Atheist]

And you believed them?

Sure I did.

Should I not have? They are subject to exactly the same NPO disclosure as JREF, so if the christian organisation's data is not believable, neither is JREF's.

 

[theprestige]

The Atheist, earlier in this thread you indicated that your assumptions about what is and is not appropriate reporting practice for an organization like JREF are based partly on your own direct experience with similar situations.

When asked for details about your own experience, you insisted that while you were happy to discuss those detaiils, they were off-topic for this thread, and that a separate thread should be opened in the appropriate (Computers) subforum for such a discussion.

Now, I strongly disagree that such a discussion is off-topic for this thread. You made an appeal to your own authority, as support for claims you made in this thread, directly related to the topic of this thread. Therefore it seems to me that any investigation of your authority, as it relates to claims you made in this thread, is supremely relevant to the topic of this thread.

It seems to me that you should, in this thread, thoroughly justify your appeal to authority, or withdraw the claims based on that authority.

However, rather than debate that point, I chose to create a new thread for that discussion, in the subforum you mentioned, in good faith that you were, as you claimed, "happy to discuss" your own experience.

Now it seems that while you're quite active in that thread, you're using it exclusively to continue the discussion you started in this thread.

Of course this makes you seem like a liar and a cheat. It calls into question your claim of authority in these matters. It undermines your appearance of honest, rational inquiry. And, of course, it's extremely rude to derail a thread on a specific topic, that you explicitly requested so that you could discuss that topic.

Please demonstrate your expertise in e-commerce tracking and reporting methods; Or admit that you are in fact ignorant of such methods, and are in no way an authority on what is and isn't appropriate for JREF to implement.

 

[Morrigan]

Don't even try to teach babies calculus.

 

[The Atheist]

Now, I strongly disagree that such a discussion is off-topic for this thread.

I take it you're unaware of a wee "off-topic" problem from this very thread.

Also, note that I have no input whatsoever on the rules, and as I've had one warning through being ignorant of a mod box earlier in the day - again in this thread - I am sticking 100% to the topic in hand, which is stated at the top of page 1.

If you can get a moderator to ok the direction of your post, get back to me.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Ok, now that you've clarified it, I'll accept it as I doubt it's been changed in the past few days.

I have to repeat that I'm somewhat surprised that an organisation reliant on donor income doesn't track where donations come from.

We'll just wait in vain for the rest of the information.

What "rest of the information"? Darat has told you it isn't available, you've understood why and accepted the explanation.

What more is there to wait for?

 

[six7s]

What more is there to wait for?

Suspension?

 

[rjh01]

Either that or he wants the mods to close the thread. I will be surprised if any more relevant information comes out of this thread. That includes on topic questions not yet asked.

 

[The Atheist]

What "rest of the information"?

Does the forum's only income consist of donations?

 

[remirol]

Does the forum's only income consist of donations?

Are you literate?

The forum has no income. The JREF has income.

 

[theprestige]

I take it you're unaware of a wee "off-topic" problem from this very thread.

Also, note that I have no input whatsoever on the rules, and as I've had one warning through being ignorant of a mod box earlier in the day - again in this thread - I am sticking 100% to the topic in hand, which is stated at the top of page 1.

If you can get a moderator to ok the direction of your post, get back to me.

Unecessary. There's also a thread dedicated to this very question, which I created at your request in the Computers subforum. If you're uncomfortable answering it here, you're welcome to answer it over there instead. After all, this is a topic you said you'd be "happy to discuss".

 

[The Atheist]

Are you literate?

Given the warning on bickering, I'll treat that question literally and just answer no while I set a wee conundrum for you:

Google Adsense pays per impression of the ad showing.

Those impressions created by forum pages will be advised and credited to JREF as the forum owner, but if you'd like to dispute that the money coming in from that source isn't completely separate from the ads on randi.org, and solely the income of the forum, then please do go ahead.

No forum = no income from forum ads.

How simple is that?

The forum has no income. The JREF has income.

You might just want to try that one again.

 

[remirol]

Those impressions created by forum pages will be advised and credited to JREF as the forum owner, but if you'd like to dispute that the money coming in from that source isn't completely separate from the ads on randi.org, and solely the income of the forum, then please do go ahead.

Again, are you literate? In this case, you don't appear to have read what you wrote; I've bolded it for you.

Now, again:

The forum has no income.
The JREF has income.
The forum costs are classed as an expenditure by the JREF.

Regarding "completely separate", I refer you to the prior discussions in this thread and others about whether or not such detailed information is tracked at all (especially given that the forum's URL is "forums.randi.org"). I am not going to waste time repeating any of it.

But claiming that such is forum's "income" is absolutely incorrect; it's a deliberate attempt to misstate facts to support a meaningless complaint.

 

[Mr Clingford]

And you believed them?

You embarrass yourself with this kind of knee-jerk comment.

 

[remirol]

You embarrass yourself with this kind of knee-jerk comment.

Oh, not a chance. With the amount of Lying for Jesus(tm) that takes place on a regular basis from so many of these groups, I have much less reason to trust a religious organization than I do others.

As I commented yesterday (but it appears to have been swept up in the bickering), I find it absolutely hilarious that TA is not over there chirping at said Christian Forum for the gruesome details of where every penny of _their_ stuff goes, but is instead willing to take their word for it... but here, he's even willing to insist that information which he's told isn't tracked _must_ exist.

It's all about agenda, I guess.

 

[The Atheist]

The forum has no income.

So, after I completely destroyed your naive comment, you're going to stick the above position?

No problem - we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[remirol]

So, after I completely destroyed your naive comment, you're going to stick the above position?

You mean the bit where I demonstrated that you were intentionally misrepresenting the situation to create artificial drama?

Yeah, I'd back out if I were you, too, at this point.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Oh, not a chance. With the amount of Lying for Jesus(tm) that takes place on a regular basis from so many of these groups, I have much less reason to trust a religious organization than I do others.

As I commented yesterday (but it appears to have been swept up in the bickering), I find it absolutely hilarious that TA is not over there chirping at said Christian Forum for the gruesome details of where every penny of _their_ stuff goes, but is instead willing to take their word for it... but here, he's even willing to insist that information which he's told isn't tracked _must_ exist.

It's all about agenda, I guess.

Ok, thanks for the response. I happen to know the forum TA is on about and he doesn't need to ask for the details because they are out in the open so he doesn't need to take their word for it. It is the type of forum that would be called unChristian by the type of websites that indeed are Lying for Jesus. This website happens to be the exception.

 

[remirol]

Ok, thanks for the response. I happen to know the forum TA is on about and he doesn't need to ask for the details because they are out in the open so he doesn't need to take their word for it. It is the type of forum that would be called unChristian by the type of websites that indeed are Lying for Jesus. This website happens to be the exception.

We know what a Form 990 is. The JREF publishes one too.

Are you referring to something else? If so, what?

 

[The Atheist]

As I commented yesterday (but it appears to have been swept up in the bickering), I find it absolutely hilarious that TA is not over there chirping at said Christian Forum for the gruesome details of where every penny of _their_ stuff goes, but is instead willing to take their word for it... but here, he's even willing to insist that information which he's told isn't tracked _must_ exist.

It's all about agenda, I guess.

Ah, you mean how christian agendas suggest that honesty and openness are good and skeptic agendas demand that the heroic leaders be trusted in all areas.

Quite right, I apologise for my stupidity.

 

[The Atheist]

You mean the bit where I demonstrated that you were intentionally misrepresenting the situation to create artificial drama?

Yeah, I'd back out if I were you, too, at this point.

Absolutely - you've won so comprehensively that I'm delighted to leave you to it. You're just posting so quickly that every time I've made a comment you've made two.

I'm perfectly happy to let the thread stand as it is. I'll just bump it every now and then for those few poor deluded fools who don't roll over on command and who believe that some organisations should display a higher standard of ethics than others.

 

[remirol]

Absolutely - you've won so comprehensively that I'm delighted to leave you to it. You're just posting so quickly that every time I've made a comment you've made two.

Well, I'm responding to both you _and_ Mr Clingford. Math works out to me...

I'm perfectly happy to let the thread stand as it is. I'll just bump it every now and then for those few poor deluded fools who don't roll over on command and who believe that some organisations should display a higher standard of ethics than others.

By the way, I believe that "theprestige" has a thread you may be interested in visiting.

ETA: Ah, excellent. I see you have.

 

[Mr Clingford]

We know what a Form 990 is. The JREF publishes one too.

Are you referring to something else? If so, what?

Just that the income and expenditure were published for all to see.