Forum Financial Data & Donations

[The Atheist]

Is there any chance we could have the financial information of the forum made available?

I'm interested to find another forum doing just that as it asks for donations and it occurred to me that while JREF's finances are public knowledge, I haven't seen any details of this forum's financial performance.

 

[Cleon]

The forum isn't an organization or entity of any sort. It's the property of the JREF.

 

[jmercer]

IRRC, TA, the only JREF-sponsored donation drive specific to the forum was for upgrading the server a couple of years back. All other JREF-generated donation requests have been for membership in The JREF. (Unless you're counting the auctions?)

 

[Darat]

I suggest you try contacting the JREF directly for such information - no one on the Mod team has access to that type of information.

 

[The Atheist]

The forum isn't an organization or entity of any sort. It's the property of the JREF.

No kidding?

That's probably why I mentioned JREF in my post and posted it at the JREF forum website.

Let me guess, next week you're going to tell us that space is big?

IRRC, TA, the only JREF-sponsored donation drive specific to the forum was for upgrading the server a couple of years back. All other JREF-generated donation requests have been for membership in The JREF. (Unless you're counting the auctions?)

See the "Donate to JREF" button at the top of every page? Do the mods not get that coming up?

I'm just interested to compare performances and as you probably know, I've mentioned forum finances before and I thought it was a good time to bring the subject up.

I suggest you try contacting the JREF directly for such information - no one on the Mod team has access to that type of information.

I have done so - I certainly didn't expect mods to have any idea, but Jeff Wagg does answer questions occasionally and I imagine he'd have the numbers at his fingertips.

 

[jhunter1163]

Who cares? What difference does it make what percentage of JREF's revenue is used to maintain the Forum? My own opinion is that the expense is probably a comparatively small amount; but whether it's 5% or 10% or 20% is irrelevant. JREF is much more than this place.

 

[jmercer]

No kidding?

See the "Donate to JREF" button at the top of every page? Do the mods not get that coming up?

I'm just interested to compare performances and as you probably know, I've mentioned forum finances before and I thought it was a good time to bring the subject up.

It's an interesting question... but one thing I've heard repeatedly over the years is that the Forum's not a money-maker. The perceived value to The JREF as something quite different, from conversations I've had with Jeff and others.

Frankly, if the forum were really bringing in significant income, do you think they would have added advertisements to help defer the expense of hosting it?

 

[The Atheist]

It's an interesting question... but one thing I've heard repeatedly over the years is that the Forum's not a money-maker. The perceived value to The JREF as something quite different, from conversations I've had with Jeff and others.

Yep, I don't doubt that it's been a net cost against an unknown amount of goodwill.

Frankly, if the forum were really bringing in significant income, do you think they would have added advertisements to help defer the expense of hosting it?

No, that's exactly why I figured they were running ads - to recoup expenses and maybe make some profits. I was just pointing out that the donotion button exists, so I imagine it gets used.

 

[rjh01]

For once I think I am close to agreement with The Atheist. Any money that does come in via the donate button should be counted as a benefit of the forum for JREF. After all if the forum went up in a puff of smoke these people are unlikely to donate to the JREF.

Another benefit to JREF of the forum is the educational value of the forum. Mind you, the benefit of that goes to the people of the world and not JREF.

Space is not just big. It is really, really big. So sorry to Douglas Adam.

 

[Darat]

...snip..

See the "Donate to JREF" button at the top of every page? Do the mods not get that coming up?

...snip...

The "Donate to the JREF click here" takes you to the standard JREF donation page. It's not asking for a donation directly for the Forum and there is no way to even mark the donation as "coming from the Forum".

 

[Cleon]

No kidding?

That's probably why I mentioned JREF in my post and posted it at the JREF forum website.

Well, what you're apparently not getting is that, since the forum is not a separate organization, the accounting information (expenses, income, etc) are probably not going to be separate from the rest of the JREF accounts.

So I'd imagine that the most information you're going to get is from what's already publicly available.

Let me guess, next week you're going to tell us that space is big?

Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

 

[Terry]

Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.

I thought it was a long way down the street to the chemists...

 

[Cleon]

For once I think I am close to agreement with The Atheist. Any money that does come in via the donate button should be counted as a benefit of the forum for JREF. After all if the forum went up in a puff of smoke these people are unlikely to donate to the JREF.

Well, the Donate button goes to same link as the one on the main www.randi.org site. There's no way to differentiate.

 

[The Atheist]

The "Donate to the JREF click here" takes you to the standard JREF donation page. It's not asking for a donation directly for the Forum and there is no way to even mark the donation as "coming from the Forum".

Darat, you are a master at the bleeding obvious - maybe you should look at a double act with Dr Adequate.

Well, the Donate button goes to same link as the one on the main www.randi.org site. There's no way to differentiate.

I'm glad you covered off the space is big issue, but a reprise really wasn't necessary, especially when Darat just played the same card.

Sorry, I'd expected that moderating a large site like JREF forum one of you might have been aware of how the internet and computers work. As this is clearly not the case, I'll gladly explain it in layman's terms for you:

The internet is a system of links, whereby you can travel from one place to the next. As you do this, your PC links with another PC, which is called a server. This server contains all of the information, posts and links for the organisation you have linked to.

Because computers know what they have done once they have done it, this server unit can tell whether a donation request has come via JREF or the JREF forum.

Imagine that!

The good people at JREF - if they choose to - can tell exactly which donations were received from which channel* - the .org or the forum.

Computers are truly an excellent innovation.

Whether JREF chooses to make that information public will probably wait until they respond to my e mail.

Meanwhile, if you have any further problems with understanding how your own system works, do let me know.

* Please note that I'm using channel in a figurative sense, as no physical channel actually exists.

 

[Cleon]

I'm glad you covered off the space is big issue, but a reprise really wasn't necessary, especially when Darat just played the same card.

Sorry, I'd expected that moderating a large site like JREF forum one of you might have been aware of how the internet and computers work. As this is clearly not the case, I'll gladly explain it in layman's terms for you:

The internet is a system of links, whereby you can travel from one place to the next. As you do this, your PC links with another PC, which is called a server. This server contains all of the information, posts and links for the organisation you have linked to.

Because computers know what they have done once they have done it, this server unit can tell whether a donation request has come via JREF or the JREF forum.

Oh, wow. Condescension. Boy, are you clever and I just feel soooo stupid.

Imagine that!

The good people at JREF - if they choose to - can tell exactly which donations were received from which channel* - the .org or the forum.

Yes, and in order to do so, they would have to track the transactions from the referral page on through to PayPal's returned data upon completion of the donation.

This would require a minor bit of recoding. Nothing major; having it set a cookie would be sufficient, with a quick post-donation check. However, unless they specifically decided to track that information, there would be no reason to do said recoding.

In any event...Said information would not be available now, which is what you're after.

And yes, I know how this works. I know how the Internet works better than you do. (That's not bluster. It's a cold, hard, fact, and I really don't give two ****s if you believe it or not.)

Whether JREF chooses to make that information public will probably wait until they respond to my e mail.

Again...That information would not be available now, unless the JREF had already made the decision to track it.

Meanwhile, if you have any further problems with understanding how your own system works, do let me know.

I would, if I wanted an inaccurate description of the situation. Thank you for supplying one.

 

[Darat]

Darat, you are a master at the bleeding obvious - maybe you should look at a double act with Dr Adequate.



I'm glad you covered off the space is big issue, but a reprise really wasn't necessary, especially when Darat just played the same card.

Sorry, I'd expected that moderating a large site like JREF forum one of you might have been aware of how the internet and computers work. As this is clearly not the case, I'll gladly explain it in layman's terms for you:

The internet is a system of links, whereby you can travel from one place to the next. As you do this, your PC links with another PC, which is called a server. This server contains all of the information, posts and links for the organisation you have linked to.

Because computers know what they have done once they have done it, this server unit can tell whether a donation request has come via JREF or the JREF forum.

Imagine that!

The good people at JREF - if they choose to - can tell exactly which donations were received from which channel* - the .org or the forum.

Computers are truly an excellent innovation.

Whether JREF chooses to make that information public will probably wait until they respond to my e mail.

Meanwhile, if you have any further problems with understanding how your own system works, do let me know.

* Please note that I'm using channel in a figurative sense, as no physical channel actually exists.

And since they do not "choose to" as I said there is no way to even mark the donation as "coming from the Forum".

 

[The Atheist]

Oh, wow. Condescension. Boy, are you clever and I just feel soooo stupid.

Well, if you go around making blatantly incorrect statements, I can but presume you don't know, so I thought I'd set it out in simple terms.

Yes, and in order to do so, they would have to track the transactions from the referral page on through to PayPal's returned data upon completion of the donation.

Incorrect again. Are you sure you know as much as you claim you do?

Hint: when blustering, it's best not to do it to someone who is quite capable of extracting the data in exactly the fashion I'm discussing.

This would require a minor bit of recoding. Nothing major; having it set a cookie would be sufficient, with a quick post-donation check. However, unless they specifically decided to track that information, there would be no reason to do said recoding.

Sorry, but that's still wrong. The information is recorded. Remember how those linky things work? The reporting system may not be set up to provide that information, but it could easily be retrieved. It' just sitting there in the memory of the server, waiting for someone to ask it.

It's all so simple I truly am surprised an expert like yourself doesn't get it.

You're not right about being no need to record the details either - unless you want to claim JREF is an organisation with very sloppy accounting practice. It's contigent upon business owners to know which channels* provide which income.

*Note the different use of "channel". It still isn't a physical channel, but refers to the different forms of income stream - sales of merchandise, TAM receipts, membership fees, wtc. Sorry if this is confusing you.

In any event...Said information would not be available now, which is what you're after.

Interesting how you've gone from your initial "this is not possible" to the above, so you are learning.

And yes, I know how this works. I know how the Internet works better than you do. (That's not bluster. It's a cold, hard, fact, and I really don't give two ****s if you believe it or not.)

Just as well you quit as mod, that's not really very mod-like language for the public sections.

And since they do not "choose to" as I said there is no way to even mark the donation as "coming from the Forum".

Darat, you're about 5 km behind the thread at this stage, do try to keep up.

The only choice involved is whether JREF wishes to release the information. Re-stating the fallacy that "there's no way to tell" is just a bit silly, in my opinion. I couldn't have made the previous description any clearer, so if you aren't able to get it, I suggest you talk to Cleon - he's apparently teh ineterwebz guroo.

(Actually, looking at his difficulty understanding, maybe jmercer would be a better bet.)

 

[Soapy Sam]

So, have you asked JREF for the data?

 

[The Atheist]

So, have you asked JREF for the data?

Yep.

Once I'd said that I'm a little surprised there was anything to discuss, but there you go.

If a reply doesn't come through in a few days, I'll follow up on it.

Some people seem determined (maybe I should link to the free will thread?) to make a mountain out of a molehill of a question. To me, the funniest part is that it was a christian forum releasing its figures which made me ask - I'd like to think JREF is at least as open as a religious group.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Haven't we been there and done that? Five years ago?

 

[The Atheist]

Haven't we been there and done that? Five years ago?

Did you post that in the right thread?

I ask because a quick scan shows no relationship to this one, and even if the finances are stashed away in the thread somewhere, details from 5 years ago isn't going to be very relevant.

 

[Darat]

choice[/B] involved is whether JREF wishes to release the information. Re-stating the fallacy that "there's no way to tell" is just a bit silly, in my opinion. I couldn't have made the previous description any clearer, so if you aren't able to get it, I suggest you talk to Cleon - he's apparently teh ineterwebz guroo.

(Actually, looking at his difficulty understanding, maybe jmercer would be a better bet.)

Your understanding of how the site is set-up (and indeed how "the internet" works) is as wrong as many of your other claims about this Forum have been. The information that you seem to think exists does not exist. As Cleon mentioned there are ways of recording such information but they are not implemented here.

 

[The Atheist]

Your understanding of how the site is set-up (and indeed how "the internet" works) is as wrong as many of your other claims about this Forum have been.

Darat, you just keep telling yourself often enough and it may even come true.

Unfortunately, you miss the point that I do this stuff for money and I do know what I'm talking about. As is quite often the case, someone who derives actual income from the internet will often have better knowledge than some voluntary worker.

It's pretty funny though - and you give yourself away with the next comment:

The information that you seem to think exists does not exist. As Cleon mentioned there are ways of recording such information but they are not implemented here.

I suggest you try contacting the JREF directly for such information -no one on the Mod team has access to that type of information.

That's nice and unequivocal.

It shows that you realise the information exists, but isn't available to volunteers, being accounting information, and accordingly reserved for accounting and other paid staff to access. I didn't think for a second - and was clearly correct - that you personally have access to any of JREF's financial or accounting systems.

Please keep trying to obfuscate; you're such a pro at it that it'd be a shame to let your talents dry up.

But do stop contradicting yourself, old chap.

 

[theprestige]

Jeff Wagg does answer questions occasionally and I imagine he'd have the numbers at his fingertips.

What evidence leads you to imagine this is the case?

It shows that you realise the information exists

No, it shows that Darat realises that type of information doesn't exist as far as he knows.

Are you sure you're actually a sceptic?

 

[Cleon]

Well, if you go around making blatantly incorrect statements, I can but presume you don't know, so I thought I'd set it out in simple terms.



Incorrect again. Are you sure you know as much as you claim you do?

Hint: when blustering, it's best not to do it to someone who is quite capable of extracting the data in exactly the fashion I'm discussing.



Sorry, but that's still wrong. The information is recorded. Remember how those linky things work? The reporting system may not be set up to provide that information, but it could easily be retrieved. It' just sitting there in the memory of the server, waiting for someone to ask it.

It's all so simple I truly am surprised an expert like yourself doesn't get it.

You're not right about being no need to record the details either - unless you want to claim JREF is an organisation with very sloppy accounting practice. It's contigent upon business owners to know which channels* provide which income.

*Note the different use of "channel". It still isn't a physical channel, but refers to the different forms of income stream - sales of merchandise, TAM receipts, membership fees, wtc. Sorry if this is confusing you.



Interesting how you've gone from your initial "this is not possible" to the above, so you are learning.



Just as well you quit as mod, that's not really very mod-like language for the public sections.



Darat, you're about 5 km behind the thread at this stage, do try to keep up.

The only choice involved is whether JREF wishes to release the information. Re-stating the fallacy that "there's no way to tell" is just a bit silly, in my opinion. I couldn't have made the previous description any clearer, so if you aren't able to get it, I suggest you talk to Cleon - he's apparently teh ineterwebz guroo.

(Actually, looking at his difficulty understanding, maybe jmercer would be a better bet.)

How cute. More condescension, and still completely devoid of content.

And no, you really don't know what you're talking about, as much as you'd like to pretend that you do.

Yes. I'm sure. Cope.

 

[Darat]

Darat, you just keep telling yourself often enough and it may even come true.

Unfortunately, you miss the point that I do this stuff for money and I do know what I'm talking about. As is quite often the case, someone who derives actual income from the internet will often have better knowledge than some voluntary worker.

...snip...

It is rare that this smilie is the only appropriate answer:

 

[The Atheist]

Goodo, now we can just wait for the actual answer - from someone with access to the financial data you don't have.

(But excellent avoidance of your contradiction I noted: well played.)

 

[Darat]

You meant avoidance of your goal post moving.

 

[The Atheist]

Well, it doesn't look as though any information will be forthcoming.

Linda has copied me an e mail of hers to Jeff Wagg asking if she can give out the information, to which he replied:

Phil is handling this. And this guy is no good. We have a long history.

(bolding mine)

Thanks, Jeff!

(oh, and next time, remember to switch off the "CC" )

 

[Jeff Wagg]

I don't know what Phil will do, but I didn't say anything in that e-mail that you don't already know.

 

[The Atheist]

Golly, what a quick response!

I don't know what Phil will do, but I didn't say anything in that e-mail that you don't already know.

No, I knew very well that you had that opinion, you've said it on the forum several times.

Whether it's reasonable for you to pass your personal opinion on in that fashion in your official capacity as a staff member of the JREF is a different question entirely, and one which I will cheerfully pursue.

Whether it's reasonable for an official of JREF to send e mails saying it to the sender is probably another question entirely and more of an internal problem for JREF than anyone else, I imagine.

I would also be happy to argue the "no good" with you in any format you care to choose, because I think you're blinded by personal like/dislike. For starters, I can guarantee you haven't read all of the e mails and letters I've shared with James Randi over 25+ years, so you should probably be more careful about your evidence, but again, that's not really my problem, is it?

And thanks to Darat for moving this to the public areas, it's certainly something which should be dealt with publicly, given that you have made it so by e mailing the comment.

ETA: I will just also note that at no stage during any correspondence with Phil Plait or Linda of JREF have I mentioned that I am The Atheist, all requests and e mails have been done under my actual name and business e mail address, so I can copy anything with 100% reliability should anyone wish to see the originals.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

And thanks to Darat for moving this to the public areas,

...snip..

Apart from of course I didn't move the thread....

 

[The Atheist]

Apart from of course I didn't move the thread....

Typical, I try to give you small praise for something and even that's wrong....

Thanks to whoever moved it then.

 

[Jeff Wagg]

It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you are one of those. I did in fact make a mistake by copying you on the mail, but it is you who made it public.

 

[The Atheist]

It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you are one of those.

So, now you're doubling up on it by claiming I wish to do the JREF harm.

That's an interesting posture.

I did in fact make a mistake by copying you on the mail,...

No kidding!

... but it is you who made it public.

Yes, but unfortunately, the far bigger issue is you, as a staff member of JREF making unsubstantiated [and false] claims about me to another staff member.

I'm quite happy to argue the point of whether I intend to cause JREF harm or not evidentially; heck, it's not as though my credibility and bona fides haven't been discussed a time or two in public.

On the other hand, you're quite welcome to accept that you erred and apologise for it, and being a fair sort of bloke, I'll accept it and leave the matter there.

Your move, Jeffrey.

 

[recursive prophet]

Where is the topic on/off switch?

Jeff: I'm a long time fan and of James Randi, though a relatively new user in these forums. This is my first reply after being suspended last week after receiving 3 warnings for being off topic, so I'm quite confused about how this rule is applied. I assure you I am not threat to the JREF, and I'm concerned about being suspended again just for asking the following question.

I fail to see how this current segue has anything to do with the topic of this thread. Am I allowed to comment on how I perceive TA's role here, or must I confine my questions to why there is nothing available regarding the amount maintaining this site costs the JREF? Accounting so lax that nobody know's or is interested in knowing such info will hardly encourage supporters to contribute money-which I've done in the past-in these hard times.

IMVHO, if the purpose of the site is to promote the goals of JREF, any amount spent on overhead here is a waste of funds and counter productive. I would be happy to provide reasons, but only if given permission. For I've discovered to my dismay being able to differentiate between 'topic drift' and 'off topic' would require reading the minds of the staff. If I manage to avoid further mod action for OT posts, I may apply for the challenge money.

Thanks for any assistance you might be able to offer wrt this matter. -rp

 

[rjh01]

Well, it doesn't look as though any information will be forthcoming.

Linda has copied me an e mail of hers to Jeff Wagg asking if she can give out the information, to which he replied:

(bolding mine)

Thanks, Jeff!

(oh, and next time, remember to switch off the "CC" )

Thank you The Atheist for your honesty. Now we all know you are 'no good.'
Pure gold.

 

[chillzero]

I'd suggest everyone get back on topic, and if that means no further responses until Phil responds, then so be it. The topic is not TA, it is his question about funding.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[The Atheist]

Easy; I've started a new thread:

Is Alan Charman seeking to harm JREF?

 

[recursive prophet]

Easy; I've started a new thread:

Is Alan Charman seeking to harm JREF?

And I noticed the other thread has also been moved again from Community(?), TA. Did this thread start there? I'm starting to get motion sickness.

Most non-profit foundations post their budget and expenses once a year. Is there anywhere potential contributors can see those numbers? It was mentioned so I assume there is, and I'd appreciate a link. Does it really make no statement wrt the costs of maintaining this site? Any ideas as to why these wouldn't be listed along with other cash outlays? Isn't the best way to see where things are going to 'follow the money?'

Thanks for starting this thread wherever it may end up TA! AAH is a heavy favorite.