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English Should not be Compulsory in High School

Modified said:
At my high school, at least, they didn't spend any time teaching you how to write essays. They just told you to write one, and graded you on the results.
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Odds are, you were taught, just before high school. Most schools teach a very basic style of "tell them what you are going to tell them, make your case in the next 3 to 5 paragraphs, tell them what you told them"

If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.


I would also suppose that you were never taught addition in high school either. Same reason.
 
lionking said:
Given the amysmal grasp of the English language of so man Australians, I have absolutely no problem with compulsory English to year 12.
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From what I can tell, this is true of pretty much all native English speakers through out the Anglosphere. It seems the only people that actually have a grasp of English are the better educated South Asians.
 
Roboramma said:
My understanding is that the data shows the opposite is true: there is a positive correlation between children's scores in science subjects and their scores in arts subjects. So those who do well in science do better (on average) in arts than those who do poorly in science, and vice versa.
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Certainly at my school the "brainy kids" as a whole excelled across the board (apart from PE) I'd say the person with the highest intelligence (ended up doing maths at Cambridge) was by far the best artist in the entire school, one of the few people I have ever been jealous of - her pencil and pen and ink work was beyond exquisite . And all of us doing 3 sciences (long reason why that was unusual at my school) were all top in the creative studies we were taking.
 
Leftus said:
Odds are, you were taught, just before high school.
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Definitely not. My understanding of the word "essay" before high school was that it was the 500 words you had to write about why you shouldn't chew gum in school while you sat in detention after you were caught chewing gum in school.

If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.
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Sure, some classes required an outline prior to the completed work. That was of some help, but it's not like you went back-and-forth with the teacher discussing how it could be improved.
 
From your link -
angrysoba said:
"Nobody Don't Like Me."
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Per Harry Belafonte in "Mama Look a Bubu":

"I wonder why nobody don't like me
Or is it the fact that I'm ugly?"
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It's incorrect in some versions of English, and correct in various dialects. What matters is not being correct but being consistent, for the sake of the reader.

When adults don't understand each other, their children will play and make up their own dialect. Such "pidgin" or creole languages fascinate me.

The following four-minute Hugh Laurie clip is satire, but this is how it feels to be a high school English teacher sometimes:

ABOFAL lecture on Romeo & Juliet
 
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Thermal said:
The second (missing) one would be, wouldn't it?
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No, In the sentence "English, in primary school, high school, and college, should be mandatory." the fourth comma would be an Oxford. Although this particular sentence would be better if the clause was set off using en dashes, here substituted with hyphens because of course they are: "English - in primary school, high school, and college - should be mandatory. In fact, the whole sentence should be rearranged: "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school, and college." In that sentence, the last comma is an Oxford comma as it precedes "and". The same sentence without the Oxford comma would be "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school and college."
 
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Leftus said:
Odds are, you were taught, just before high school. Most schools teach a very basic style of "tell them what you are going to tell them, make your case in the next 3 to 5 paragraphs, tell them what you told them"

If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.


I would also suppose that you were never taught addition in high school either. Same reason.
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Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
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It wasn't the teachers, it was the curriculum. The teachers were fine. They did exactly what they were required to do.
 
Darat said:
Certainly at my school the "brainy kids" as a whole excelled across the board (apart from PE) I'd say the person with the highest intelligence (ended up doing maths at Cambridge) was by far the best artist in the entire school, one of the few people I have ever been jealous of - her pencil and pen and ink work was beyond exquisite . And all of us doing 3 sciences (long reason why that was unusual at my school) were all top in the creative studies we were taking.
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I suppose I'm the exception that proves that rule :o

Then again, taking three sciences, two languages as well as the three mandatory 'O' levels (Maths, English Language and English Literature) and Religious Instruction (still mandatory back then) meant that there wasn't time for creative subjects (the way scheduling worked you simply had a choice between Geography and History) for those of us taking three sciences ([Physicist]If we're being very broadminded and are considering Chemistry and Biology to be sciences ;)[/Physicist]).
 
Roger Ramjets said:
Outline? Three by five cards? bibliography? You're kidding, right?

Some of us apparently had no teachers.
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Sadly, no. I always hated doing outlines. It's just not how I've ever written anything. I would argue that it's just not the way I think. While I may have turned in an outline, I don't think I've ever used one. Most of the time, the outline was submitted after I had the paper effectively written. I do remember 3x5's but not their function. I don't think I've ever submitted a bibliography except with the paper.

Thankfully, that part of my life has been forgotten, on the whole. The only writing I do now are white papers and other proposals that go nowhere.
 
Leftus said:
Sadly, no. I always hated doing outlines. It's just not how I've ever written anything. I would argue that it's just not the way I think. While I may have turned in an outline, I don't think I've ever used one. Most of the time, the outline was submitted after I had the paper effectively written. I do remember 3x5's but not their function. I don't think I've ever submitted a bibliography except with the paper.

Thankfully, that part of my life has been forgotten, on the whole. The only writing I do now are white papers and other proposals that go nowhere.
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I certainly do use outlines in technical writing, but I like to get a lot of thoughts on paper first. To do that, I find it helps to be slightly drunk so I can just get a lot out without trying for perfection. Once I have a lot of words, things can be cleaned up and organized. Then later, when I and/or my co-authors decide that the whole structure stinks, completely reorganized with many parts rewritten.


At least twice while doing research I've come across something and thought "wow, this is really well written", then realized that I had written it. It never looks very good to me immediately after writing it though.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
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Roger Ramjets said:
Outline? Three by five cards? bibliography? You're kidding, right?

Some of us apparently had no teachers.
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You know, I vaguely recall having to do that! But only vaguely, it's been well over fifty years.
I had one English teacher whose obsession was book reports. That was pretty much all we did. There was an extremely proscribed format for them. I got marked down on the first one for not having the required style of spiral notebook. Had to get the correct notebook, recopy it, and turn it in the next day, late.
She was a close friend of the insane librarian. They both had the same wildly artificial red hair.
 
Trebuchet said:
YI had one English teacher whose obsession was book reports. That was pretty much all we did.
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Book reports were by far the majority of the writing I did in high school, and pretty much the only writing I did in grade school and junior high.

There was an extremely proscribed format for them. I got marked down on the first one for not having the required style of spiral notebook. Had to get the correct notebook, recopy it, and turn it in the next day, late.
She was a close friend of the insane librarian. They both had the same wildly artificial red hair.
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I remember one junior high teacher who wouldn't accept book reports without a clear plastic cover. Of course on the day they were due there was some kid selling those covers at 300% mark-up.
 
Modified said:
I certainly do use outlines in technical writing, but I like to get a lot of thoughts on paper first. To do that, I find it helps to be slightly drunk so I can just get a lot out without trying for perfection. Once I have a lot of words, things can be cleaned up and organized. Then later, when I and/or my co-authors decide that the whole structure stinks, completely reorganized with many parts rewritten.
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I tend to not put anything fixed until the paper is at least half written in my head. I know what I want to say, and I know my major points. I've always written that way. When in school, it caused problems with teachers who had their method and demanded things like first drafts, outlines, revisions, and the list goes on. The closest I've ever been to a draft, was when I was writing something, I lay out my case, only to find my thesis wasn't fully supported. So I did the only logical thing at the time, I reworked the thesis statement. No way was I rewriting the supporting points. It's not like the words on the paper were going to forever hold me to a position.
 
Trebuchet said:
There was an extremely proscribed format for them.
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Only because this is a thread about learning English:

"Proscribed" means "prohibited". The word you want is "prescribed".

Also, "extremely" isn't such a great adverb to pair with "prescribed". The adverb connotes a continuum, but a prescription is more or less a binary thing. If you want to indicate how vehement they were in enforcing the requirements, try "strictly".
 
theprestige said:
Only because this is a thread about learning English:

"Proscribed" means "prohibited". The word you want is "prescribed".

Also, "extremely" isn't such a great adverb to pair with "prescribed". The adverb connotes a continuum, but a prescription is more or less a binary thing. If you want to indicate how vehement they were in enforcing the requirements, try "strictly".
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Putting the E in the ISF.
 
arthwollipot said:
No, In the sentence "English, in primary school, high school, and college, should be mandatory." the fourth third comma would be an Oxford. Although this particular sentence would be better if the clause was set off using en dashes, here substituted with hyphens because of course they are: "English - in primary school, high school, and college - should be mandatory. In fact, the whole sentence should be rearranged: "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school, and college." In that sentence, the last comma is an Oxford comma as it precedes "and". The same sentence without the Oxford comma would be "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school and college."
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Very well done, I think only your counting was lacking.
 
theprestige said:
Only because this is a thread about learning English:
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But is it?

The OP states:-
=Robin said:
I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.
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I had no problem with English when it was just about spelling, grammar, and comprehension. But trying to get into the mind of T. S. Eliot (or what the teacher imagined was in his mind) is a different thing.

Of course today, with another 50 years of life experience to boost my confidence, I would find it much easier - though I doubt the teacher would like what I wrote...
 
Robin said:
In Australian high schools, mathematics is not compulsory in the last two years of high school, but English is.

This has always struck me as a highly discriminatory practice as some of us will never be able to get a decent result in this subject, while at the same time we are capable of getting top marks in subjects such as mathematics or languages.

I have no objection to English being compulsory in the lower years of high school, but our marks in the final year of high school have a strong influence in what we will be able to do in life.

I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.

I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.
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It isn't so much the number of English classes one is required to sit but more about the quality. Take a look at the U.S. where the danger is apparent.
 
Modified said:
Book reports were by far the majority of the writing I did in high school, and pretty much the only writing I did in grade school and junior high.

I remember one junior high teacher who wouldn't accept book reports without a clear plastic cover. Of course on the day they were due there was some kid selling those covers at 300% mark-up.
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Maybe that was their assignment for a business class? Actually I doubt it. Few junior high teachers are capable of coming up with anything that practical.
 
I went to high school in New York. From what I saw, the kids just don’t read the literature that’s assigned to them anyway! Especially in senior year. They get senioritis and just don’t take high school classes seriously, since they know college is coming in a few months. My teacher assigned Crime and Punishment in senior year and literally no one read it!

My husband didn’t read half the books that were assigned to him, either! (Maybe he read them later on in life, though.)

English class is wasted on teenagers anyway, from what I saw.
 
I make a distinction between English and Literature.

And yes, continuing education in English grammar, syntax, and usage should be compulsory through at least high school.

Literature should be taken separately, but in sync with the student's current English grade level. Personally I think K-12 lit classes should focus more on short stories.
 
You were reading Crime and Punishment in English literature class? Now, I don't want to be "that guy", but ackshually Dostoyevsky wrote in Russian, so at best we are marvelling at the English literary skills of his translator.
 
High School English has served me very well throughout my life.

It introduced me to many authors that I would have never encountered otherwise, and sparked a life-long love of Shakespeare.

:)
 
PookieBear said:
I went to high school in New York. From what I saw, the kids just don’t read the literature that’s assigned to them anyway! Especially in senior year. They get senioritis and just don’t take high school classes seriously, since they know college is coming in a few months. My teacher assigned Crime and Punishment in senior year and literally no one read it!

My husband didn’t read half the books that were assigned to him, either! (Maybe he read them later on in life, though.)

English class is wasted on teenagers anyway, from what I saw.
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In Australia, failure to read the assigned English texts and pass the exams could lead to a failed school year, and thus no university entrance at all. So love or hate them, we read those books and studied.
 
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