English Should not be Compulsory in High School

[Robin]

In Australian high schools, mathematics is not compulsory in the last two years of high school, but English is.

This has always struck me as a highly discriminatory practice as some of us will never be able to get a decent result in this subject, while at the same time we are capable of getting top marks in subjects such as mathematics or languages.

I have no objection to English being compulsory in the lower years of high school, but our marks in the final year of high school have a strong influence in what we will be able to do in life.

I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.

I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.

 

[Norman Alexander]

English as she are spoke.

 

[arthwollipot]

I have no idea what is being taught as "English" these days. When I was in school, it was 100% literature.

 

[lionking]

Given the amysmal grasp of the English language of so man Australians, I have absolutely no problem with compulsory English to year 12.

 

[Robin]

I have no idea what is being taught as "English" these days. When I was in school, it was 100% literature.

It still is.

 

[Darat]

I have no idea what is being taught as "English" these days. When I was in school, it was 100% literature.

Mine was split "English language" and "English literature" and we had separate exams for both. The language section was about comprehension and structure of language and the lit was critical analysis of novels, stories, plays, poetry (yes they really did force us to deal with such obscenities) and so on.

Very surprised that maths isn't required in the last two years, that seems very strange.

 

[The Atheist]

I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.

We have no compulsory subjects this side of the ditch for years 12 & 13.

English stops being a useful subject at ~year 10 and I'd much rather see my kids learning a subject that will provide them with work skills than Shakespeare and poetry. My daughter chose to do English, while my son couldn't get away from it fast enough - he's doing multiple maths subjects instead.

I loved English myself, but that's mostly because I was madly in love with my English teacher. Never learned anything worthwhile, although we did get to watch Roman Polanski's version of Macbeth, which was pretty cool and featured Francesca Annis' tits, which caused a bit of an uproar at an all-boys school.

 

[Darat]

What are years 12 & 13? 12 year old and 13 year olds?

 

[Norman Alexander]

What are years 12 & 13? 12 year old and 13 year olds?

In NZ, Year 1 is Kindergarten. So Year 12 is the equivalent of Fifth form. Mind you, being in the southern hemisphere, the years here are half as long. So who knows if they ever learn to use a knife and fork let alone Unglush.

 

[lionking]

In NZ, Year 1 is Kindergarten. So Year 12 is the equivalent of Fifth form. Mind you, being in the southern hemisphere, the years here are half as long. So who knows if they ever learn to use a knife and fork let alone Unglush.

In Australia year 12 is the equivalent of 6th form. Your last year of high school.

There are so, so many elective subjects in year 12 that an English requirement is not an onerous burden.

I’d like to see maths and science as mandatory as well, as it was for me back in the 1960s, but if you can only have one, English for me.

 

[bobdroege7]

It is a most necessary skill.

English majors may not make top salaries right out of college, but after 20 years they do indeed catch up.

Say you and another engineer are in competition for a promotion, the other one has a minor in English, but you are the better engineer. I would bet against you getting the job.

If you can't get there, their, and they're right nor can you get your, you're and yore right, better go back to school.

 

[Darat]

Ah I see. - Up to 16, English and Maths are compulsory in all UK nations, 16 to 18 all subjects become elective.

 

[Giordano]

In Australian high schools, mathematics is not compulsory in the last two years of high school, but English is.

This has always struck me as a highly discriminatory practice as some of us will never be able to get a decent result in this subject, while at the same time we are capable of getting top marks in subjects such as mathematics or languages.

I have no objection to English being compulsory in the lower years of high school, but our marks in the final year of high school have a strong influence in what we will be able to do in life.

I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.


I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.

I see your post more as an argument for requiring math courses in the last two years of high school than eliminating a requirement for English. Personally I consider both very important. But I think that the ability to read, understand, think about broad ideas, and communicate, has even more widespread importance in one’s life than math, so if only one is mandated it should be English. Presumably one can always take extra math courses as electives.

 

[Thermal]

It's probably beneficial to expose the student and challenge them to fields they do not naturally excel in, if for no other reason, just to be conversant in matters beyond their job. School is not strictly job training; it seeks to make you roundly educated and stuff. We all picked up far more than we realized. Remember the kids saying 'oh why do we have to learn math, we have calculators now'?

eta: your grades in school should show how well-rounded a person you are, not how much of a specialist. Everyone has a specialty where they excel. Should your primary education be throttled down to your Greatest Hits?

 

[Joe Random]

It's probably beneficial to expose the student and challenge them to fields they do not naturally excel in, if for no other reason, just to be conversant in matters beyond their job. School is not strictly job training; it seeks to make you roundly educated and stuff. We all picked up far more than we realized. Remember the kids saying 'oh why do we have to learn math, we have calculators now'?

eta: your grades in school should show how well-rounded a person you are, not how much of a specialist. Everyone has a specialty where they excel. Should your primary education be throttled down to your Greatest Hits?

In the USofA to graduate high school I had to take two years of physical education and two years of a foreign language. Also math up to at least geometry. I don't use any of those in my current profession, so I could say there was no reason I should have been forced to take them to graduate.

Thing is, I enjoyed them all, especially the languages (French and German for one and two years respectively). The applicability to any given career has no direct bearing on which courses should be required prior to college.

 

[Thermal]

In the USofA to graduate high school I had to take two years of physical education and two years of a foreign language. Also math up to at least geometry. I don't use any of those in my current profession, so I could say there was no reason I should have been forced to take them to graduate.

Thing is, I enjoyed them all, especially the languages (French and German for one and two years respectively). The applicability to any given career has no direct bearing on which courses should be required prior to college.

And students, being so young, switch majors in college. It's good to have the introductory exposure and background, both academically and for your later side explorations. A hard-core mathematician may find that they like tennis that they tried in gym class, or remember a poem that struck them and they pursued later, even if they didn't do well in a course overall.

 

[Modified]

I have no idea what is being taught as "English" these days. When I was in school, it was 100% literature.

Same here. Maybe in freshman year high school English they spent a bit of time on grammar and vocabulary, but after that it's just reading books and taking tests about what you read.


My vocabulary was pretty basic until I prepared for the GRE. The only preparation I did was study vocabulary, and in particular the subtle distinctions between words with similar meanings. Based on practice tests, I brought my GRE verbal score up from a probable high-400s to an actual 720 with six weeks of studying maybe four hours per day. There is no reason high school English classes shouldn't have provided me with that vocabulary. Sure, it's great that I read "Lord of the Flies" and "To Kill a Mockingbird", but some of that time could have been better spent learning the language more directly.

 

[Joe Random]

And students, being so young, switch majors in college. It's good to have the introductory exposure and background, both academically and for your later side explorations. A hard-core mathematician may find that they like tennis that they tried in gym class, or remember a poem that struck them and they pursued later, even if they didn't do well in a course overall.

When I first started high school I wanted to be a lawyer. Toward the end I drop-shifted into wanting to be a film composer. Where I'm at now is not even close to either, and not because I had to fall back on something else after trying and failing a first choice. Tastes change, and as you say one might not even know they had a knack or passion for something until they had to be exposed to it.

 

[theprestige]

Mathematicians need to be able to communicate well outside of mathematics. Non-mathematicians don't need to be able to communicate well inside of mathematics.

Improving fluency in at least one primary language should be part of any compulsory general education program, in my opinion. That, history, and civics.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I feel like every engineer should have a very good understanding of at least one poem by Oliver Wendell Holmes: The One-Hoss Shay.

I can't count the times I have used this poem with engineers.

 

[MattNelson]

Fun fact: English is the world's #1 second language.

It will always be required in high school, especially in America.

 

[The Atheist]

What are years 12 & 13? 12 year old and 13 year olds?

6th & 7th form.

We used "forms" up until about 1990, when someone decided we should move to the American model of using the years at school.

 

[Thermal]

6th & 7th form.

We used "forms" up until about 1990, when someone decided we should move to the American model of using the years at school.

We don't have a year 13 in the States, really. That is freshman/first year of college

 

[The Atheist]

We don't have a year 13 in the States, really. That is freshman/first year of college

Your "kindergarten" year is Year 1 here, so the end result if the same.

 

[theprestige]

6th & 7th form.

We used "forms" up until about 1990, when someone decided we should move to the American model of using the years at school.

Your "kindergarten" year is Year 1 here, so the end result if the same.

The American model uses grades, not years, though.

Kindergarten, first grade, second grade... twelfth grade. America is a large and diverse country, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some subgroup or dialect somewhere that refers to third grade as "year three", but that's not how it's been talked about in any part of America I've ever been to.

 

[smartcooky]

In Australian high schools, mathematics is not compulsory in the last two years of high school, but English is.

This has always struck me as a highly discriminatory practice as some of us will never be able to get a decent result in this subject, while at the same time we are capable of getting top marks in subjects such as mathematics or languages.

I have no objection to English being compulsory in the lower years of high school, but our marks in the final year of high school have a strong influence in what we will be able to do in life.

I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.

I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.

Judging by the number of High School leavers I encounter every day in my business, both as clients and as job applicants, whose spelling, grammar and ability to write coherently is nothing short of atrocious, I completely disagree with your suggestion. In fact, if someone gives me a CV full of grammatical and spelling errors, I pretty much rule them out for employment before any other consideration.

If anything, the teaching of English language should be strengthened. IMO, at senior school levels English should be split into two separate subjects; Communications English (which should be compulsory) and English Literature (which could be optional).

 

[smartcooky]

We don't have a year 13 in the States, really. That is freshman/first year of college

You do, you just call it 12th grade; the 13th year of your education system.

Your First Grade is our Year 2.

 

[zooterkin]

What are years 12 & 13? 12 year old and 13 year olds?

The same as years 12 & 13 in the UK.

17 and 18 years old, roughly. Sixth form, under the old system.

In the UK, they’re doing A levels, specialising in 3 or 4 subjects usually, which could be English but that’s not required.

 

[Trebuchet]

I feel like every engineer should have a very good understanding of at least one poem by Oliver Wendell Holmes: The One-Hoss Shay.

I can't count the times I have used this poem with engineers.

Thanks, I enjoyed reading that again!

As an engineering major in college, I was required to take a course in technical writing, taught by the English department. It took very little time to learn that no Engineering professor would accept a paper written in the manner taught by that course.

 

[Thermal]

You do, you just call it 12th grade; the 13th year of your education system.

No, we don't have a 13th. That would be unlucky, so we invented kidnergarden, as a garden for kidners.

USA! USA!

 

[angrysoba]

Mine was split "English language" and "English literature" and we had separate exams for both. The language section was about comprehension and structure of language and the lit was critical analysis of novels, stories, plays, poetry (yes they really did force us to deal with such obscenities) and so on.

Very surprised that maths isn't required in the last two years, that seems very strange.

Yes, but that wasn’t what them foreigners call “high school”; it’s what they call “junior high school”. I think Robin also makes it pretty clear that the English subject being studied in high school is English literature with the complaint about T.S Eliot. In the UK I don’t think there are any compulsory subjects in “high school”.

 

[smartcooky]

No, we don't have a 13th. That would be unlucky, so we invented kidnergarden, as a garden for kidners.

USA! USA!

Count 'em

New Hampshire
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Rhode Island
New York
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
Delaware
Maryland
Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Georgia

Stars and Stripes: Count 'em

Unlucky for some....

 

[theprestige]

You do, you just call it 12th grade; the 13th year of your education system.

Your First Grade is our Year 2.

The point is we don't call it Year 13. Just like you don't call your Year 2 "First Grade".

 

[marting]

Since I didn't take English, but the Americanized bastardization of English in school I've always had a different interpretation of:

"Knock her up in the morning"

 

[Minoosh]

Very surprised that maths isn't required in the last two years, that seems very strange.

When Algebra 2 gets around to factoring quadratic equations with complex roots, I secretly end up agreeing with the students that most will not use this stuff in "real life." Actually what trips them up more than anything else is arithmetic when it involves decimals or fractions.

I think Algebra 2 got started because by the freshman year of college most students could not remember anything from Algebra 1. It's mostly the same stuff.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Given the amysmal grasp of the English language of so man Australians, I have absolutely no problem with compulsory English to year 12.

If you haven’t got a grasp after 10 years of school, two years of literary analysis is not going to help.

 

[theprestige]

If you haven’t got a grasp after 10 years of school, two years of literary analysis is not going to help.

Presumably those with a weaker grasp will be taking compulsory remedial classes, rather than the more advanced compulsory classes for those in a position to deepen their mastery of the nuances.

 

[angrysoba]

Given the amysmal [sic] grasp of the English language of so man [sic] Australians, I have absolutely no problem with compulsory English to year 12.

Are we talking about poor written English or spoken English? I understand that Australians have a weird colloquial vocabulary, but that is a normal part of natural languages having regional varieties and it is poor form to denounce non-standard English as somehow inferior or "incorrect". Furthermore, when you mention the poor English skills of Australians, do you mean those for whom English is a second language and/or those who migrated, or those who were born and raised there, in English, and went through the entire Australian curriculum?

 

[Trebuchet]

Count 'em

New Hampshire
Massachusetts
Connecticut
Rhode Island
New York
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
Delaware
Maryland
Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Georgia

Stars and Stripes: Count 'em

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Flag_of_the_United_States_%281777-1795%29.svg/353px-Flag_of_the_United_States_%281777-1795%29.svg.png[/qimg]

Unlucky for some....

And look at the mess that country is in now! Unlucky indeed, it just took a while.

When Algebra 2 gets around to factoring quadratic equations with complex roots, I secretly end up agreeing with the students that most will not use this stuff in "real life." Actually what trips them up more than anything else is arithmetic when it involves decimals or fractions.

I think Algebra 2 got started because by the freshman year of college most students could not remember anything from Algebra 1. It's mostly the same stuff.

I have used quadratics and trigonometry in real life. But I agree about the fractions and decimals. Especially the decimals, because when I went to college calculators weren't a thing and slide rules wouldn't put the decimal in correctly.

 

[arthwollipot]

As I understand it (and my kids are all grown up now so it's been a few years) the way it goes in Canberra is like this:

Preschool - 1 year. This is only a little more advanced than daycare.

Kindergarten - 1 year.

1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, 4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade - primary school.

Year 7, year 8, year 9, year 10 - high school.

Year 11, year 12 - secondary college.

When I was in high school, there were no electives in Year 7, and in Year 8 I got to choose what electives I would have for the other three years (I chose Latin, History and Technical Drawing). Year 11 and 12 were all electives, except for English, Maths, and Science, which were compulsory.

I'd like to see kids these days study more English grammar and spelling, because what they have now is atrocious. On the other hand, written language is evolving alongside spoken, and while awful from a grammar traditionalist perspective, it is rarely unreadable.