Elephant "graveyards"

[slingblade]

I was watching a show yesterday about animals and intellect, a PBS Nature series. At one point, the habits of elephants with the bones of their own species was brought up, and some things were said that made me ponder.

Not verbatim, mind you:

"Elephants fondle and inspect only the bones of their own species. They touch, sniff, and otherwise handle them, almost compulsively. They are never seen to do this with the bones of other animals."

Ok, my train of thought:

Before a dead elephant becomes a pile of bones, it's still recognizably an elephant. It's got skin, still holds its shape, and still smells like an elephant. Elephants probably most often die in areas where other elephants are, or have been and will be again (along the routes to food, water, breeding, etc.). Other elephants are going to come along and see this dead elephant.

As it is still recognizable, immediately after death, as an elephant, it seems to me that other elephants are cognizant enough to recognize it. I've seen elephants push and prod a downed but living elephant in an effort to rouse it to its feet. I've seen them handle it, touch it, and so forth. In so doing, they transmit their own smells to it.

As the body decomposes, elephants continue to touch it. As it begins to look less and less like an elephant, it still retains the smells of other elephants--still smells like one of them, but with the odor of decomposition about it, as well. But still, it smells like one of them. Finally, the dead elephant is reduced to bones. But other elephants continue to touch these familiar-smelling bones, as the program said, almost obsessively.

Is the reason elephants don't do this with other bones because those other bones don't continue to smell like them through this process? Is that really all there is to it? Not because they recognize a piece of a broken skull as being elephant skull, but simply because they've transmitted so much olfactory information to it through handling it repeatedly?

I'd like to see experiments done with elephant bones that have been sterilized, rendered odorless or nearly so, along with the bones of other animals that have been impregnated with the smells of elephants, and see if it's the bones they recognize, or the odors they themselves have placed there.

If in such an experiment, elephants do fondle the bones that smell most like them, regardless of the source, then that would seem to rather discount what the show was promoting: That elephants know their own, even when it's just a tusk or a bit of skull. That they would fondle familiar-smelling bones, even if they came from a lion, or giraffe.

Did I hit upon something, there? What do you think?

 

[CFLarsen]

Why would elephants be concerned about the remains of their own kind - at all?

I can't think of any other animal that does this.

Do chimps do this? Bonobos? Gorillas?

 

[Fiona]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8209

apparently chimps do but not to the same extent

 

[slingblade]

Thanks for the article, Fiona. The only thing missing from that account was whether the other objects or skulls smelled all elephant-y too.

An elephant's trunk and feet are very tactile. I can tell the difference in a piece of bone and a piece of wood with my sight and touch. But my sense of smell is not as good as an elephant's, I'm sure. I can see how an ele would reject a bit of wood, but not a bit of bone--they "know" in some sense that the wood doesn't feel like a bone.

But what about the odors? I'm still curious about that part.

 

[geni]

Why would elephants be concerned about the remains of their own kind - at all?

I can't think of any other animal that does this.

Do chimps do this? Bonobos? Gorillas?

Reports exist of chimps careing about dead babies in the short term (couple of days perhaps). Not sure about adults.

Female elephants probably form rather strong bonds with their fellow elephants. They live in small groups with them for decades. So some level of connection post death is quite posible.

 

[CFLarsen]

Chimps may still believe - even wish - that their partner isn't really dead. We see this with other animals that linger a while around a dead offspring (e.g., The March of the Penguins).

Lions devouring a dead member of its own species is hardly what we are talking about here.

Attention (I won't call it "devotion") to long-dead remains, where only a whiff of decomposed material remains?

Could be misunderstood concern: That they misread the signs and think the member is still alive.

 

[slingblade]

I've explained, Larsen, that elephants often try to rouse a downed, living elephant. They may also do this with one recently dead, still trying to get the dead animal to its feet. This is likely due to their very social interactions. A downed elephant can't be part of the herd anymore, as the herd is constantly moving. A non-moving elephant is an anomaly in elephant society.

All that aside, and explicable, I want to know how much scent has to do with it.

 

[catbasket]

This looks useful. Haven't read it yet though ...

 

[geni]

This looks useful. Haven't read it yet though ...

Well it rules out smell in any case.

 

[slingblade]

Does it really rule it out? I see no mention of it, either way. Did I miss that part? I may have done.

 

[catbasket]

Not entirely. End of paragraph 3 in section 4 -

[snip] although it remains possible that where ivory is present alongside skulls, elephants may, through tactile or olfactory cues, recognize tusks from individuals that they have been familiar with in life.

 

[CFLarsen]

In one experiment, 17 families were presented with skulls from an elephant, a buffalo and a rhinoceros. The elephants showed considerable interest in the skull of their own species. They did this by smelling and touching individual objects with their trunks and occasionally touching them lightly with their feet.

In another experiment, 19 families were presented with an elephant skull, a piece of ivory and a piece of wood. The creatures showed a strong preference for the skull over the other two objects, and for the ivory over the wood.

The third experiment tested three elephant families who had recently lost the head of their family. Each was presented with three skulls of matriarchs including their own – but they did not show a preference for their relative’s skull.Source

They may be aware of their own species, but they aren't aware of their relatives.

 

[slingblade]

Ah, thank you Snow. I did read that, but the answer is incomplete. Yes, they may recognize individuals they once knew, but maybe they also recognize any elephant remains as being elephantine, because it smells like an elephant. Not any particular individual, perhaps. Just elephant-y.

Cool. I'm so glad I asked about this. My hypothesis may hold a very small amount of water after all.

(or it may not. I can't, after all, conduct such experiments on my own.)

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

I'd like to see experiments done with elephant bones that have been sterilized, rendered odorless or nearly so, along with the bones of other animals that have been impregnated with the smells of elephants, and see if it's the bones they recognize, or the odors they themselves have placed there.

FWIW I'd have ethical reservations about such an experiment.

 

[shadron]

Beyond that is the practical problem of rendering something"odorless"...to whom? Smell is essentially an airborne molecular chemical recognition facility. We have no way of knowing what elephants can smell (or at least, I doubt any extensive research is extant). Some humans can smell things others can't, for example. It may be possible for elephants to smell basic calcium chemicals in the ivory, or more likely, some of the heavy semi-organic binding chemicals like lignin.

Ruling out smell, which is certainly at least as sophisicated as sight and hearing as senses go, should be very carefully proven. It seems very basic to all life.

 

[slingblade]

FWIW I'd have ethical reservations about such an experiment.

Are you going to say what they are, or let us guess?





Shadron, I suppose that's all true.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Just the obvious ones. Would you do that experiment on a human? Without knowing what the elephants understanding of the situation is how would you know the experiment isn't offensive or painful to the elephant?

 

[slingblade]

Just the obvious ones. Would you do that experiment on a human? Without knowing what the elephants understanding of the situation is how would you know the experiment isn't offensive or painful to the elephant?

Good thing I'm housebound and phobic, then. Who knows what horrible havoc I could wreak on the world with my ignorance.

 

[geni]

Does it really rule it out? I see no mention of it, either way. Did I miss that part? I may have done.

All items were washed with a solution of Teepol (which has a low number of contaminant volatiles), given two thorough rinses and air dried before and after experiments. This both controlled for any extraneous differences in scent between the objects prior to the experiments, and prevented accumulation of scent (from handling or elephant interest in particular objects) during the experiments.

 

[geni]

Just the obvious ones. Would you do that experiment on a human?

Absolutely. Most people have seen skulls at least in any case.

Without knowing what the elephants understanding of the situation is how would you know the experiment isn't offensive or painful to the elephant?

While situations appear to suggest they are not stressed by such remains.

 

[catbasket]

Yes, they may recognize individuals they once knew, but maybe they also recognize any elephant remains as being elephantine, because it smells like an elephant. Not any particular individual, perhaps. Just elephant-y.

Not forgetting that ivory feels elephant-y

Interesting point by shadron. A quick google seems to show that elephants have a pretty good sense of smell, e.g. "[the African elephants'] sense of smell is thought to be superior to any other land animal".

RecoveringYuppy - you've given me something to think about ... but they seem to do this naturally, in the wild ... and I certainly wouldn't recognise the bones of Granpappy Snow unless they were labeled ...

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Absolutely. Most people have seen skulls at least in any case.

Skulls of their own relatives? I would think few people would have that experience. Though I expect elephants have that experience routinely.

Would you get the participants consent first? That's an important difference between human participation and elephant.

While situations appear to suggest they are not stressed by such remains.

Hard to say though, since we can't talk to them or read their minds.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

In case slingblade is really offended, I'd point out that I said I had reservations, not that I thought this was tantamount to torture.

RecoveringYuppy - you've given me something to think about ... but they seem to do this naturally, in the wild

Yes and I certainly wouldn't have any objections to watching what they choose to do for themselves. No ethical issues there.

... and I certainly wouldn't recognise the bones of Granpappy Snow unless they were labeled ...

We don't know how or if they actually recognize individual remains. Experimenting with the remains of relatives is most troublesome to me. If they've got anything resembling the sentamentaliy we attach to remains that could be very stressful. If, for example, we removed the smell from a set of remains to test if smell is how they recognize remains, we could be destroying something very important to an elephant.

 

[Modified]

Beyond that is the practical problem of rendering something"odorless"...to whom? Smell is essentially an airborne molecular chemical recognition facility. We have no way of knowing what elephants can smell (or at least, I doubt any extensive research is extant).

You're overthinking this. Just spray some Febreze on them and that ought to do it.

 

[CapelDodger]

I've explained, Larsen, that elephants often try to rouse a downed, living elephant. They may also do this with one recently dead, still trying to get the dead animal to its feet. This is likely due to their very social interactions. A downed elephant can't be part of the herd anymore, as the herd is constantly moving. A non-moving elephant is an anomaly in elephant society.

All that aside, and explicable, I want to know how much scent has to do with it.

I wonder how much memory and learning has to do with it. Elephant herds do have to keep moving, but as I understand it they exploit habitual territores in different seasons, and migrate by habitual routes. The likelihood is that when they come across elephant bones they'll remember the occasion of that elephant's death and have an emotional response.

 

[Cavemonster]

I'm not sure how proving that elephants recognize the bones by scent would change the interpretation of the action.

Every thing we interact with, we recognize it as what it is though our senses. From what I know, no one is claiming that the elephants magically know that the bones are theirs.

If I get you right, your premise is that they may not recognize the bones as dead, and are continuing to treat them as live elephants. Whether or not they recognize the bones as different from live ailing elephants is what an experiment should cover.

I don't see how masking the scent would be any different from blindfolding, if it were shown that they recognized the bones by scent alone, so what?

 

[catbasket]

We don't know how or if they actually recognize individual remains.

Agreed.

Experimenting with the remains of relatives is most troublesome to me.

I respect, and to a certain extent understand, your point of view.

If they've got anything resembling the sentamentaliy we attach to remains that could be very stressful.

To me that is one mighty big "if". Also, I'm trying to work out just how much sentimentality I personally attach to remains ... it seems to be extremely little.

If, for example, we removed the smell from a set of remains to test if smell is how they recognize remains, we could be destroying something very important to an elephant.

We could be, if smell is how elephants recognise remains and remains are indeed important to them. However from the study linked it appears that smell may well not be how they identify remains (Teepol washes). Maybe it's the feel of the ivory? But how then do we explain their interest in elephant remains where no ivory is present? [woo alert] Maybe elephants have some unknown sense or method for recognising remains? Would discovering that be worth any upset to the elephants involved in the tests? I just don't know.

One thing I do know is that it was you who made me think about this (ethical reservations) ... something I hadn't considered previously. So - "Thank you, RY, for making me think".

 

[geni]

Skulls of their own relatives? I would think few people would have that experience. Though I expect elephants have that experience routinely.

Realisticaly you are not going to be able to tell the difference between the skull of a relative and any other.

Would you get the participants consent first? That's an important difference between human participation and elephant.

Current practice seems to be that you do not require consent to show someone a skull.

Hard to say though, since we can't talk to them or read their minds.

We have a reasonable idea of what the stress characteristics are in an elephant.

 

[technoextreme]

Chimps may still believe - even wish - that their partner isn't really dead. We see this with other animals that linger a while around a dead offspring (e.g., The March of the Penguins).

Errrr... I doubt it's wishing. My family has noticed the same odd behavior with squirrels. And by odd we actually witnessed a mother squirrel drag a dead baby up tree.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

To me that is one mighty big "if". Also, I'm trying to work out just how much sentimentality I personally attach to remains ... it seems to be extremely little.

Yes, it's definitely a big if.

I attach little sentimentality to remains also, but still I think I'd disturbed to see a relatives skull.

Realisticaly you are not going to be able to tell the difference between the skull of a relative and any other.

No, but if I knew it was a relative skull (such as being told), I'd be disturbed.

Current practice seems to be that you do not require consent to show someone a skull.

What kind of current practice are you referring to? You'd have to get consent to show someone a skull of a recently dead relative. There are laws regarding what you can do to dead bodies. We may be on a forum where superstitions about dead bodies are in short supply, but there are plenty of people who have opinions about what should and should not happen to dead bodies.

We tend to think of animals as having childlike minds. Not sure if there is anything at all accurate about that conception but I'm sure most people wouldn't be cavalier about showing kids dead bodies.

We have a reasonable idea of what the stress characteristics are in an elephant.

If we don't even know if elephants have a sense of loss, how could we know when we've caused them extra grief?

 

[six7s]

Just a thought... rather than simply olfactory recognition, might not optical recognition play a part... I mean... what the hell else, besides an elephant, has bones that size and shape to leave decomposing in the jungles of India or the savannas of Africa?





rhino


hippo

 

[slingblade]

What caught my attention and prompted my thoughts was the statement that they don't do this with any other animal bones. On the screen at that moment were several elephants touching and interacting with elephant bones. It made me wonder, is it because other bones don't smell like them, perhaps? Just an idle thought, and one that I wondered about testing. I'm sure sight comes into it, in large part, of course.

Heh, I was jist a thinkin. Us rednecks dew that wunst in a while.

 

[geni]

What kind of current practice are you referring to? You'd have to get consent to show someone a skull of a recently dead relative. There are laws regarding what you can do to dead bodies. We may be on a forum where superstitions about dead bodies are in short supply, but there are plenty of people who have opinions about what should and should not happen to dead bodies.

Depends on how recently dead. Bodies get donated to medical science and the like and bodies turning up as a collection of bones is not unknown.

If we don't even know if elephants have a sense of loss, how could we know when we've caused them extra grief?

There are a number of stress indicators in elephants. One is where they try to kill you. Another is rocking behavior.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

There are a number of stress indicators in elephants. One is where they try to kill you. Another is rocking behavior.

Somehow I think that means we've still got a long way to go before we know we've fully understood what goes on in an elephants head.

 

[CrikeyBobs]

Errrr... I doubt it's wishing. My family has noticed the same odd behavior with squirrels. And by odd we actually witnessed a mother squirrel drag a dead baby up tree.

My interpretation of that behaviour would be that removing the body reduces the risk that predators are attracted to the area and so become a threat to the squirrel's other young.

 

[quarky]

What Six7's said.

That, and elephants have a very large brain; live a long social life; and we don't know squat about what goes on in non-human brains.

 

[AWPrime]

Maybe elephants have some unknown sense or method for recognising remains? Would discovering that be worth any upset to the elephants involved in the tests? I just don't know.

I think that its likely location. Elephants have an excellent internal map, if they know where a member died and they find elephant bones there its easy to reason who those bones belonged to.

 

[CapelDodger]

What Six7's said.

That, and elephants have a very large brain; live a long social life; and we don't know squat about what goes on in non-human brains.

I'm two-parts good with that, but not good with the last part.

We know a lot about what goes on in social mammals, and we share that distinction with elephants. We share the same kind of nomadic behaviour with elephants - efficient exploitation of seasonal territories, and migration between them by established routes. This means that the dead we come across are mostly the remembered dead.

Humans tend to bury and raise monuments to the dead. Elephants don't have to because they have some bones way too big to drag away. Or they were before humans started building houses out of them.