Doing the least to save your life...

[Ducky]

Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors.


Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to.

I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.


I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it.


No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.


Please help me here. What does this stand for?


The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face.


The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine.

In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.


Yes. It seemed very passionately argued.

In that case let's skip straight to the point.

Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo.

Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article?

 

[love]

What people with cancer get better without using doctors? I imagine it would be those who don't have cancer but imagine they do so if they imagine they took something for their imaginary cancer they could imagine they got better and they would be better in their imagination if you can imagine that.

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.

 

[Ducky]

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.

That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you.

 

[love]

In that case let's skip straight to the point.

Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo.

Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article?

Why does it matter if homeopathy is better than a placebo? Homeopathy is a very good placebo.

Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine...

So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would:

a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C

b.) pray like the dickens

c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck

d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets

e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills

f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here)


If so, well.... good luck with that.

Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one. I don't know why more people don't do this.

 

[Kiless]

'love',

Before you go any further, I'm going to politely suggest that all of your suggestions may require you to consider looking at the million dollar challenge page, so you can take a more proactive step about your beliefs and maybe make a difference in the way your homeopathy and other suggestions are viewed by putting it up to the test. Do that. I'm willing to cheer you on for taking that step.

Anything else that you may seem to think is so 'helpful' in terms of addressing Fowlsound's condition is going to cause you more grief than you probably deserve. Although I'm certain there's some people who would probably think otherwise about how much grief you deserve and I can well envision their reasoning for doing so.

Move away from this one. Seriously.

 

[Kiless]

Oh - you seem to have trouble understanding the word 'placebo':

pla·ce·bo

1 a) A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well.
b) An inactive substance or preparation used as a control in an experiment or test to determine the effectiveness of a medicinal drug.

2. Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another.

From dictionary.com.

I particularly noticed 'definition 2'...


(edited to clarify what definition I was refering to)

 

[love]

That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you.

I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point.

 

[Terry]

Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one.

What evidence do you have for this assertion?

 

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works.

All the steps: like finding an expert team of oncologists, nurses, home care workers, rehab specialists, psychologists ets.

Having surgery/radiation/chemo as per the best standards of evidence-based medicine.

Obtaining the best symptom control available.

Managing stress and trying to maintain some sense of sanity in the midst of all the chaos.

Finally, waiting to hear the fabulous "all clear" from your health care workers

Yup...imagine it and then do it...sound advice, but somehow I think I may have misunderstood you.

 

[Ducky]

I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point.

You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word.

I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this:

Move away from this one.

 

[Mercutio]

Love...let me echo Kiless. Walk away from this one. You are not merely wrong, but in this context you are offensively so. Start another thread on placebos if you like, I would be happy to join in there.

The whole point of a double blind study is to show the effectiveness of a treatment over and above placebo. FowlSound's treatments are, quite simple, a hell of a lot more effective than a thousand placebos.

 

[Kiless]

How about you start a generic thread about homeopathy somewhere else, 'love'. That may be better. Then you can perhaps propose a general statement, only about a paragraph, so people can talk generally about the topic.

And of course, check out here: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html
You might like to start reading some threads in the challenge forum about how people have thought about proposing homeopathy for the challenge.

 

[Chris Haynes]

You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word.

I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this:

Move away from this one.

Nor did she closely examine the x-rays of the spine, somehow I am not quite sure how a placebo would work on that kind of physical damage.

I would like to formally apologize for sending "love" over to this thread. I sincerely thought she/he would get a clue. But I was so terribly wrong. I am so sorry, and it seems she/he has absolutely no idea how hurtful her/his cluelessness is ... and now I am moving away from this one.

sorry

 

[Kiless]

I have deemed posts 52 onwards to have 'abandoned all hope'. The thread may continue there as it has derailed from the original topic and resorted to flaming.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Kiless

 

[clarsct]

If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know.


Thanks.

ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies.

 

[LostAngeles]

If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know.


Thanks.

ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies.

 

[Kiless]

Due to technical difficulties, the moved threads can be found here, although pasted in my post. I apologise to all concerned for the odd formatting but every post has been maintained. Back on topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Kiless

 

[Kiless]

NO! MINE!

 

[Rolfe]

I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again?

Rolfe.

 

[NeilC]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

 

[clarsct]

Other than a Waste Of Money, Brains And Time?


No, there are better things to do with one's time and imagination. Like, say, sorting your pennies by date. Or, hey, I have a good one! Dream up a fanastic date with your S/O...then spend the money making it come true!

Nyah...it'd never work.

 

[Rolfe]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession.

Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason?

Rolfe.

 

[NeilC]

If I had cancer? Possibly.

 

[Rolfe]

Why?

Rolfe.

 

[NeilC]

I didn't say I would I said I might. Hard to say what I might do if I had a potentially terminal illness. I can’t confidently state that I wouldn’t.

The imaginative exercises might work in some sense – nobody can really say that developing a positive attitude etc cannot have any effect on one’s immune system or merely one’s ability to cope or something else not thought of just yet. Re: Homeopathy – this is probably the least likely thing I’d dtry but might be worth trying re: the placebo effect. It does appear to be quite a good placebo.

Given that terminal illness is your last shot I cannot rule out the possibility that I'd take the view that anything is worth trying as long as it doesn’t do any harm.

 

[MRC_Hans]

What would have happened? I would be dead. plain and simple. No alternative treatment would do anything to cure what I have.

How does your anger serve you? How in control of your life do you feel?

Piss off.

Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction.

...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'.

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

Splossy, if I told you that nailing a dead chicken you your door was a great cancer therapy, and why not, it can't do any harm, would you try it?

Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?

Rolfe.

 

[NeilC]

"Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?"

Yes. Of course.

 

[MRC_Hans]

What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas?

No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients.

The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment.

Hans

 

[Mercutio]

If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.

I can only see the harm if

A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain.

B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer.

 

[NeilC]

You don't actually know that to be the case.

This from Skepdic:

"There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological.

Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope"

There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it.

 

[NeilC]

I can only see the harm if

A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain.

B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer.

I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.

 

[richardm]

I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.

I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right.

You have to also look at the harm that placebo and 'alternative therapies' can cause.

My father believes in the evils of 'big pharma', has a subscription to Kevin Trudeau's website (much to my chagrin), etc. He was diagnosed about a year ago with prostate cancer. Instead of going straight for medical treatment, he decided to try herbal remedies in hopes that the prostate would shrink, and possibly be cured of cancer without resorting to mainstream science. He thought it was working for him, so wasn't as concerned to go for a follow up appointment.

Needless to say, by the time he did go for a follow up, the prostate was almost unmanagable. He finally had the surgery a few days ago, which was touch and go due to size and the loss of blood.

The placebo effect can have positive effects, but foregoing medical treatment while hoping that a placebo will have a positive effect is a huge gamble. Certainly not one that I'm willing to take. And that's why those who sell placebos as a valid alternative to mainstream medicine are no better than common criminals; While they're lining their pockets, people who trust in the placebo effect die.

 

[brodski]

I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance

Its more than that, Ive seen SCAMers deliberately targetign the terminally ill, they're content selling false hope to people who are incredibly emotionally vulnerable, and more often than not in extremely difficult financial circumstances (being seriously ill costs you serious amounts of money, even if you do have state funded medicine).

The guilt trips these people will pull on patients and their families are incredible, when a family member is facing death, the urge to do anything, and spend any amount in the vain hope that it may help them is almost overwhelming. Some people look at this situation and see £ signs.
These people deserve their own circle of hell, just above the sociopaths that do the same, but try and convince the patient to give up effective treatment in favour of their snake oil, and will even try and convince the patient that the Drs who are working hard to save their life, are actually making them ill!

I would rather the SCAMers where out mugging people on the street than targeting the oncology wards, they are much less likely to kill someone that way, and each victim will probably loose less, both emotionally and materially.

 

[Rolfe]

No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients.

The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment.

Hans

Just in case anyone missed this.

Placebo is one of two things. An inactive pill given to "placate" the patient, to make then think the doc is doing something for them, or a similarly inactive pill given to the control group in a drug trial.

There can be so much going on with coincidental improvement, wishful thinking and so on, that such controls are necessary to separate out the effect of the real pharmaceutical from what would have happened anyway.

The "placebo" doesn't actually do anything, apart from possibly making the patient les anxious.

Nailing a dead chicken to your door is a well-known cancer cure. You owe it to yourself to try it!

Rolfe.

 

[Garrette]

Very sorry I haven't chimed in before, fowlsound, and even more sorry for the troubles you have faced and continue to face.

Great paper. I'm keeping it to hand give to some folks at appropriate times.

Well done. Thanks.

Get better.

 

[BillHoyt]

Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors.

Fortunately, love, we have better ways than "viewpoints" and "anger" and to determine the truth of these matters. There is no "viewpoint" involved with regard to scientific truth.

Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to.

"Healing tools" is a nonsense phrase used by those who wish to include unproven or even disproven ideas as substitutes for medicine. Doing what you feel like doing is a recipe for disaster.

I do use homeopathy.

Then, love, you're a fool.

ime I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.

If you are "one of those 20%," love, then you didn't "treat" yourself. You deluded yourself. The "treatment" did nothing. This is the definition of "placebo." Nothing happened as a result of the placebo. It either happened anyway, or the patient deluded herself.

I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it.

Uh, no, you clearly don't understand what a placebo is.

No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.[/.quote]
Its a great thing that science isn't based on people's experience, because, you see, nobody else can corroborate or refute your self-reports. We can simply say the placebo didn't help you one wit. We can further more say, with confidence, that the various snake oils you applied were also a total waste of both your time and effort. Period, love.

The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face.

Remote healing? And you haven't applied for the million dollars? What kind of foolishness is this?

The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine.

Fallacy of equivocation here, love.

In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health.

Please cite your evidence. I have, btw, similar questions on other threads that you seem to have ignored. Please respond to this one.

 

[Ducky]

I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again?

Rolfe.

upper humorus. it's very small, and consistent with myeloma tumor. more MRI and CT scans have been taken I'll learn more on the 3 january meeting.

 

[rikzilla]

Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine...

So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would:

a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C

b.) pray like the dickens

c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck

d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets

e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills

f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here)


If so, well.... good luck with that.

Thanks folks! I now have the objective answer to that age old question: For love or money?

Looks like Money is the only rational choice available!

Fight hard FowlSound...you are a fine example of the courage necessary to adhere to rationality in the face of mortality. Carl Sagan is one of my heros; but not just because of the way he lived; the way he faced death was even more impressive.

You OTOH are expected at TAM5. No excuses man.
-z