Does anyone actually really believe the Earth is flat?

I think people here are making a mistake many skeptics make; They are underestimating the ability of people to beleive really crazy crap.
 
PitPat said:
Almost ashamed to be linking to it. Parking not included.

https://tickets.creationmuseum.org/webstore/shop/viewitems.aspx?CG=GA22&C=GA0322

Only an hour away from them, and you have one day. Only $114 so not like sacreligious Disney or anything. And they're cute animated giraffes.

Then there's another one I saw which touted the double admission. Can't find it but there's this, an encounter.

Seems like kids aren't free. And looks like a small boat.

Click to expand...

Disneyland gives you a lot more for your money.
 
dudalb said:
Disneyland gives you a lot more for your money.
Click to expand...

Does it, though? People who are obsessed with Disney will pay through the nose, again and again, and consider it money well spent. Me? I don't care much for either. The money I spent for Disneyland would be as much of a waste as money spent on this thing.
 
Checkmite said:
That's because "the Earth is flat" is a faith statement - in the actual religious sense. So you may as well be trying to come up with a way to test the existence of God.

I would concede that flat-earthers almost certainly aren't committed to any particular proposed model of Flat Earth. They believe the Earth is definitely flat, full stop. But they're not willing to put any particular model to the test, at least not with any meaningful stakes, because while they may half-heartedly throw this or that model out there ultimately Antarctica doesn't need to be an ice-wall (for instance) in order for the Earth to still be flat, as far as they're concerned.

In other words, they don't require any specific model of Flat Earth to be true; they just require Round Earth to be false.
Click to expand...

Doesn't there have to be a wall to prevent all the atmosphere and water from falling off?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Do you think skeptism is a belief system?
Click to expand...

I don't care. Belief systems you don't believe in is your hangup. My hangup is value systems that people pay lip service to, but dismiss whenever it's inconvenient to their irrational beliefs.

Skepticism is such a value system. Some are happy to espouse it when they can attack someone else on the strength of it, while they dismiss it whenever their ox is being gored.

Example: The United States Senate. These power brokers have arranged for themselves a legal loophole to engage in insider trading. Illegal for everyone else. Unethical and immoral for everyone, including US Senators. Joe Biden has been a US Senator for his entire career prior to the presidency. But somehow you still unskeptically believe that he is an ethical actor who places your welfare above his own.
 
theprestige said:
I don't care. Belief systems you don't believe in is your hangup. My hangup is value systems that people pay lip service to, but dismiss whenever it's inconvenient to their irrational beliefs.

Skepticism is such a value system. Some are happy to espouse it when they can attack someone else on the strength of it, while they dismiss it whenever their ox is being gored.

Example: The United States Senate. These power brokers have arranged for themselves a legal loophole to engage in insider trading. Illegal for everyone else. Unethical and immoral for everyone, including US Senators. Joe Biden has been a US Senator for his entire career prior to the presidency. But somehow you still unskeptically believe that he is an ethical actor who places your welfare above his own.
Click to expand...


You are describing Religion, especially US Evangelicals.
Their belief is 100% situational.

At least no skeptic thinks they are being skeptical all the time.
 
Last edited:
I imagine that both types exist: those whose belief is basically sincere, and trolls.

One common type of 'dad joke' is when 'dad' pretends to not understand something very basic that everybody knows. When I brought my wife home to meet my dad, he did this routine with her. One moonlit night she made some kind of comment about the moon being lovely and he asked her whether they also have a moon in Japan. I know him well enough to understand that this is one of his dad jokes. He knows full well that it is the same moon. But my wife was rendered speechless and confused. Did she misunderstand his English or could he possibly be that ignorant? I feel like flat earth is that sort of dad joke for some.
 
The company I work for did a job a few years ago where the owner (I think?) of one of the subcontracting companies was a flat earther. He was, as far as I could tell, completely sincere. As it happened, the job was on the south shore of Long Island; as he was telling us about his flat earth ideas, I was watching ships disappear over the horizon.

I couldn't tell you how he came to believe it, or why. He an interesting enough guy without that stuff. But, I mean, people believe that Jesus rose from dead. Once you incorporate a belief into your identity, getting rid of it causes structural damage.
 
but the things is- people only believe when you ask them about it or their belief circuits are triggered in another way.
So yes, when they talk to you about it, plenty will be 100% sincere. But if you look for Revealed Preferences, most CTs/Religion disappears .
 
novaphile said:
Doesn't there have to be a wall to prevent all the atmosphere and water from falling off?
Click to expand...

No. There could be, but there doesn't have to be. Gaps in the model aren't really a bad thing to a flat-earther, because they can be filled by God. And again I stress, the sole and entire point of Flat Earth is to make room for God.
 
Seems to me that a spherical earth leaves just as much room for God as a flat one. Although maybe less room for a literal interpretation of Biblical scripture.
 
There's been an increase of flat earth pushers on X since Elon started giving some of the ad revenue to verified posters based on number of views.
Also flat earthism seems to be accompanied by wider conspiracy and anti authority beliefs.
Apart from those that cite the bible there's the anti Masonic and Illuminati pushers.

No two of them can agree on anything but the vaguest details of their flat earth and none of them will tell you anything about it that will pin anything down.
All you get are memes about the globe.

I just ask how they would use the sun angle provided by a sextant to fix a position on a flat earth. Not one has been able to tell me.

Over the last few weeks I have also seen a lot of the main meme creators and posters moving away from flat
earth and jumping on the 'all history is fake' and 'Tartaria' and every building older than the internet is a relic of an ancient global civilization and was 'discovered' and repurposed.
 
Last edited:
Okay this is my theory about this.

The whole Flat Earth thing is MOSTLY a piece of anti-intellectual performance art.

In the margins you get a few full on wackos that sorta give you the impression the "honestly" believe it, but most of the time Flat Earthers always have that stupid subtext of "At least I'm thinking for myself" to it, the as I call them "Proudly Wrong" the people who elevate a reflexive contrarianism above intellectual standards.

Most of the time when hear Flat Earthers talk you get all the buzz words. "I'm just asking questions, at least I'm thinking for myself, what else are the keeping from us, etc."

It's a shtick. It's someone going "Lookit this, I'm thinking something amazingly patently absurd and it's not hurting me at all, ya'll worry to much about be right about everything."
 
Last edited:
JoeMorgue said:
Okay this is my theory about this.

The whole Flat Earth thing is MOSTLY a piece of anti-intellectual performance art.

In the margins you get a few full on wackos that sorta give you the impression the "honestly" believe it, but most of the time Flat Earthers always have that stupid subtext of "At least I'm thinking for myself" to it, the as I call them "Proudly Wrong" the people who elevate a reflexive contrarianism above intellectual standards.

Most of the time when hear Flat Earthers talk you get all the buzz words. "I'm just asking questions, at least I'm thinking for myself, what else are the keeping from us, etc."

It's a shtick. It's someone going "Lookit this, I'm thinking something amazingly patently absurd and it's not hurting me at all, ya'll worry to much about be right about everything."
Click to expand...

Yeah. It's to the point I don't even care about the flat-earther schtick anymore. What interests me now is the people who profess to be concerned about flat-eartherism. Is that also a schtick, or are they sincerely worried about it?
 
theprestige said:
Yeah. It's to the point I don't even care about the flat-earther schtick anymore. What interests me now is the people who profess to be concerned about flat-eartherism. Is that also a schtick, or are they sincerely worried about it?
Click to expand...

It's a schtick. Maybe not quite a schtick, but people can get really, really excited about engaging in an intellectual argument that they are confident they will win. Much more so than screwing around in a grayer area that's not so much a slam dunk logical victory.

Eta: see any religiously themed thread discussion
 
Because performative wrongness is still a problem and that's far as I'm going to argue it with you two.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
I have never met a Flat Earther IRL. But I have met plenty of Christians. A not unusual response if their belief is questioned is, "I don't want to discuss it." And their belief is continued.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Many (myself included earlier in life) will feel they have been warned against folks who question their belief (or against questioning it too deeply themselves) with themes and teachings like "do not cast your pearls (your faith, which is precious) before swine (those who will not understand it and will just stamp it into the mud)", and "have faith like children (not like milk drinking babies mind you, but don't get all critical thinking-y like pompous, know-it-all adults)" and "those who think themselves wise are actually fools (don't worry, stick to your faith and you'll be shown to be smarter than "wise" people in the end). These folks will feel smug in having seen the likes of those who question their faith with rational argument coming a mile away. (The interpretations in parentheses are obviously my own).

mumblethrax said:
...Once you incorporate a belief into your identity, getting rid of it causes structural damage.
Click to expand...

Well put and universally true of all people whether religious or not. (though religion encourages this incorporation of "foundational" belief, while skepticism encourages its examination and, where appropriate, its demolition.
 
Puppycow said:
Seems to me that a spherical earth leaves just as much room for God as a flat one. Although maybe less room for a literal interpretation of Biblical scripture.
Click to expand...

You would think; there are plenty of religious people who have no trouble with the Earth being round and orbiting the sun.

But a round Earth that obeys quantizable and predictable physical laws also leaves room for no God, and therein lies the problem.

Flat-earthers don't believe that spherical Earth is merely wrong; they don't think it's an innocent mistake that came from bad or misread observations. They believe it is a positive lie, willful and deliberate, forced on the populace by a truly massive conspiracy of scientists, academics, and others for the primary purpose of mass-planting the suggestion that God isn't necessary for the world to exist, deliberately leading people to question or lose their religious faith.
 
Have you ever heard of/from somebody who says (s)he previously believed it but doesn't anymore?
 
TBH it doesn't really matter to 99% of the world's people whether the Earth is round or flat. For most purposes (other than flying or boating or sending things into space) it might as well be considered as flat (with lots of bumps). It's like the folks who think Elvis is alive; how many of them just believe it as a thing, and how many are going to Graceland to find evidence?
 
theprestige said:
Yeah. It's to the point I don't even care about the flat-earther schtick anymore. What interests me now is the people who profess to be concerned about flat-eartherism. Is that also a schtick, or are they sincerely worried about it?
Click to expand...

same reason we should be worried about Creationism - "teaching the controversy" has always been a strategy for lowering educational standards.
 
Delvo said:
Have you ever heard of/from somebody who says (s)he previously believed it but doesn't anymore?
Click to expand...

I haven't personally, but I'm sure it probably happens. I've heard of people getting out of QAnon, and that's just a different presentation of the same motivations.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
same reason we should be worried about Creationism - "teaching the controversy" has always been a strategy for lowering educational standards.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

One might think "flat earth" is too ridiculous a proposal to represent any kind of threat; but there are creationists and QAnon believers sitting in Congress right now and they got there by professing and campaigning on those beliefs. A handful of UFO nuts in Congress are holding regular briefings on UFOs and have successfully pushed a mandate for the Pentagon to spend significant money "investigating" UFOs. In Minnesota, the legislature is working on a bill requiring police and state authorities to investigate and ground aircraft that residents suspect of emitting chemtrails. A similar bill has already passed the legislature in Tennessee and awaits the Republican governor's signature there.

You can easily have a few conceptual conversations with these folks and dismiss them in isolation as harmless disingenuous cranks or trolling contrarians, not to be taken seriously. But you do that at your peril. These guys are allied, goal-oriented, and while you ignore and laugh at them they are becoming increasingly successful at gaining political power and using it to progressively give their ideology the force of law. They have an "enemy" they are working to "defeat". That enemy includes science, scientists, and people who accept science, and you'd have to be completely oblivious to not notice the gains they're making recently, and you underestimate the number of people who may not necessarily share their specific kooky beliefs but will vote for them anyway purely to spite people and groups they don't like.
 
Last edited:
Checkmite said:
Exactly.

One might think "flat earth" is too ridiculous a proposal to represent any kind of threat; but there are creationists and QAnon believers sitting in Congress right now and they got there by professing and campaigning on those beliefs. A handful of UFO nuts in Congress are holding regular briefings on UFOs and have successfully pushed a mandate for the Pentagon to spend significant money "investigating" UFOs. In Minnesota, the legislature is working on a bill requiring police and state authorities to investigate and ground aircraft that residents suspect of emitting chemtrails. A similar bill has already passed the legislature in Tennessee and awaits the Republican governor's signature there.

You can easily have a few conceptual conversations with these folks and dismiss them in isolation as harmless disingenuous cranks or trolling contrarians, not to be taken seriously. But you do that at your peril. These guys are allied, goal-oriented, and while you ignore and laugh at them they are becoming increasingly successful at gaining political power and using it to progressively give their ideology the force of law. They have an "enemy" they are working to "defeat". That enemy includes science, scientists, and people who accept science, and you'd have to be completely oblivious to not notice the gains they're making recently, and you underestimate the number of people who may not necessarily share their specific kooky beliefs but will vote for them anyway purely to spite people and groups they don't like.
Click to expand...

And this is how conspiracy theories have accumulated a body-count. I'm not just referring to the Protocols of Zion, I'm talking Qanon, and the Tik-Tok CT of the month. As I stated, stupid people have internet access and can feed their delusions unchecked. 4chan and 8chan users have successfully developed efficient trolling models that have fooled the mainstream media over the past 15 years to the point where people have lost jobs over mythical hand gestures. These troll now use Tik-Tok to quickly spread crazy ideas which often end up sticking around far too long.

We have an eclipse on Monday, and here in the United States of America Tik-Tok, and other social media platforms are full of conspiracies about "What's Really Going to Happen". You'd think the people of the same country that has plated seven flags on the moon would be well beyond Third-Century paranoia over a total eclipse at any level, but here we are.

I worked with a guy who went to some obscure fundamentalist church. He didn't believe in any kind of science. I think one of the reasons he was attracted to that church and belief system was it let him off the hook for choosing to be stupid. One day I was explaining plate tectonics, and he kept asking how science knew the information was true. I told him about radio carbon dating, and had to explain how that worked, and how science knew it worked. The scientific method had never been explained to him. But the week following Sunday service he declared science was all smoke and mirrors. I hate to think how many people attend those services, and what jobs those people have during the week.
 
theprestige said:
Performative outrage at performative wrongness is also a problem.
Click to expand...

Why is it a problem?

Because if we all just agreed to ignore it it would go away once they realize that their schtick isn't working anymore and nobody is paying them the attention that they crave?

I've considered this, but the thing is that someone always responds.

Trolling is a tried and foolproof method: Say something outrageous enough and you will get attention (whether good or bad). If you aren't getting any then just try something even crazier. Personally I've never enjoyed attracting the wrong sort of attention to myself, but some people will take any sort of attention they can get.
 
Brainster said:
TBH it doesn't really matter to 99% of the world's people whether the Earth is round or flat. For most purposes (other than flying or boating or sending things into space) it might as well be considered as flat (with lots of bumps). It's like the folks who think Elvis is alive; how many of them just believe it as a thing, and how many are going to Graceland to find evidence?
Click to expand...

It matters when they vote for decision makers, or are in office as decision makers.
 
Axxman300 said:
And this is how conspiracy theories have accumulated a body-count. I'm not just referring to the Protocols of Zion, I'm talking Qanon, and the Tik-Tok CT of the month. As I stated, stupid people have internet access and can feed their delusions unchecked. 4chan and 8chan users have successfully developed efficient trolling models that have fooled the mainstream media over the past 15 years to the point where people have lost jobs over mythical hand gestures. These troll now use Tik-Tok to quickly spread crazy ideas which often end up sticking around far too long.

We have an eclipse on Monday, and here in the United States of America Tik-Tok, and other social media platforms are full of conspiracies about "What's Really Going to Happen". You'd think the people of the same country that has plated seven flags on the moon would be well beyond Third-Century paranoia over a total eclipse at any level, but here we are.

I worked with a guy who went to some obscure fundamentalist church. He didn't believe in any kind of science. I think one of the reasons he was attracted to that church and belief system was it let him off the hook for choosing to be stupid. One day I was explaining plate tectonics, and he kept asking how science knew the information was true. I told him about radio carbon dating, and had to explain how that worked, and how science knew it worked. The scientific method had never been explained to him. But the week following Sunday service he declared science was all smoke and mirrors. I hate to think how many people attend those services, and what jobs those people have during the week.
Click to expand...
This.
 
LSSBB said:
This.
Click to expand...

May be a bit off topic, but I watched a documentary on Netflix earlier called The Antisocial Network: Memes to Mayhem, which kind of covers the history from the chan culture, Anonymous, a lot of the players involved. I think this has a lot to do with it...namely, just trolling.
 
theprestige said:
Joe Biden has been a US Senator for his entire career prior to the presidency. But somehow you still unskeptically believe that he is an ethical actor who places your welfare above his own.
Click to expand...
FJB.

Did I get that right? Saw it on a YouTube comment today and thought it might be appropriate.

And if liberals can insist that the Earth is round then we can say the same about it too. FTG, even if it does exist.
 
Delvo said:
Have you ever heard of/from somebody who says (s)he previously believed it but doesn't anymore?
Click to expand...

I’ve seen a YouTube channel of a guy who, posting videos all the way, first believed in flat-eartherism adamantly, then slowly changed his mind.

That’s the only person I’ve ever known of who appeared to actually believe in it.

Eta: I could have been fooled by appearances, I didn’t watch all the videos.
 
Last edited:
Delvo said:
Have you ever heard of/from somebody who says (s)he previously believed it but doesn't anymore?
Click to expand...

A quick google turned up this (harvested from Reddit or twitter is my guess)
https://didyouknowfacts.com/15-former-flat-earthers-recall-the-moment-they-realized-they-were-wrong/

The one that interested me was :
I doubt you’ll find many, if any reformed flat earthers. For people like that who are so entrenched within their ideology, the flat earth isn’t just something they believe, it’s who they are. They have flat earth friends, listen to flat earth podcasts, watch flat earth YouTube, and wear flat earth clothes to their flat earth meetings. Even if deep down, someone like that had an epiphany and realized that they were wrong, imagine how hard it would be to reject all of these relationships, the community, and the friends that are held together because of that one common belief. It’s similar to why it’s so hard for people to leave cults or extremist religious or political groups.
Click to expand...

Note that the accompanying anecdotes seem to be of solitary flat earthers. It would explain Marsh's experience at a Flat Earth conference where all these people were taking each others contradictory theories seriously.
 
Of the four flat earthers who recently got an all-expense paid trip to Antarctica, looks like 2 of the 4 came away at least seriously questioning their worldview. Overall, the 'final experiment' led to massive infighting amongst the FE community, since now they can't come to agreement on whether the experiment was faked or whether it can be explained aways by some even crazier argument:

Final Experiment
 
Unfortunately, I believe there are some who do believe and some who believe for the benefit of their ego/pocketbooks that prey on the willfully ignorant. Anybody who has some amount of education can clearly see through these bogus attempts. I remember one guy about 3-5 years ago, I can't remember his name, started off one of his very slick videos with something like view this video with an open mind or some such entreaty. I watched about 2-3 minutes until he made his first claim, then shut it down. Of course he was paid whatever the going rate was, but any video for the next year was never opened. I don't know if he still posts videos, but I suspect he does just for the money.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Jeran Campanella hanged his mind according to;
www.iflscience.com

Flat-Earthers Travel To Antarctica To Test Theories, But Are Quickly Humbled

Lo and behold, they didn't discover a giant ice wall guarded by NASA.
www.iflscience.com www.iflscience.com
Click to expand...
At least they didn't disturb the protoplasmic blobs and doom American to mass human sacrifice and a loosing war against China.

hackernoon.com

The Wall of Death | HackerNoon

And then Kay had broken through and was hewing madly with great sweeps of the ax.
hackernoon.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom