CrossFit is a stupid and dangerous cult

[Biscuit]

If you weigh the evidence, you're actually now far more likely to get an injury lifting a patient than if you didn't do CrossFit, and you should really pay attention to the risks. If you're already pushing yourself and are suffering from overuse, poor-form issues... look out.

I see you've edited to your post after an hour, did you find the copious evidence of the specific risks of CrossFit from multiple sources yet?

Here is the study that the ACSM put out with the military and an important section

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/CFJ_111200_Bergeron_Champ.pdf

And regards to the risks of your job...

And here is the rebuttal

If that paper is your evidence for cross fit being "Stupid and dangerous" you have only proved half. Yes it can be dangerous. Is it any more dangerous than other types of exercise? You haven't proved that. So if it's not more dangerous than other types of workouts then why is it stupid?

Your paper unfairly lumps cross fit in with DIY workouts like P90X. They couldn't be more different. Having the supervision and training of professionals in the gym makes cross fit way more effective and a lot safer.

I am sure there are unsafe gyms and unqualified instructors but that is in all fields and every profession. Saying all cross fit is stupid and dangerous is just...well stupid.

 

[Joey McGee]

Still doesn't make it woo. from rationalwiki

Obviously crossfit isn't for you but you are 100% wrong in calling it woo and I think you are trying to be deliberately offensive.

I didn't call it woo, I'm pointing out the problems with the way it uses Olympic lifts!

There are no paranormal claims made by anyone with regards to how crossfit works.

Wow you're going out of your way to defend it now!

Its just a style of weightlifting and exercise that carries with it all the inherent dangers and risk of weightlifting and exercise.

WRONG, there are safer ways to lift weights and exercise, from the study "particularly violate recognized accepted standards for developing muscular fitness." You can chose to just not read the expert opinions on this, or just not accept them, I don't care.

Whatever claims are made regarding diets are not claims about crossfit

That's ridiculous! Then why did Barry Sears work for Crossfit doing their nutrition certification? Why is there so much about these diets in their journals? Why are there so many articles by Barry Sears on their website? Do you even know what you are arguing against? To say that Crossfit does not promote "The Zone" diet, I am sure that you do not understand what we're talking about.

 

[Joey McGee]

And here is the rebuttal

Yes, a rebuttal by the unqualified father of the leader of the organization, not peer-reviewed, against a highly accredited group of people and the top exercise organization in the country, peer-reviewed.

If that paper is your evidence for cross fit being "Stupid and dangerous" you have only proved half. Yes it can be dangerous. Is it any more dangerous than other types of exercise? You haven't proved that. So if it's not more dangerous than other types of workouts then why is it stupid?

It says it right in black and white for you. " particularly violate recognized accepted standards for developing muscular fitness ... fails to adhere to appropriate and safe training guidelines" Following the guidelines set out by the ACSM would be less dangerous. I'm not sure you really reading it.

Your paper unfairly lumps cross fit in with DIY workouts like P90X.

It's about Crossfit, even Crossfit knows that.

They couldn't be more different. Having the supervision and training of professionals in the gym makes cross fit way more effective and a lot safer.

HA! Have you been paying attention at all to the arguments about lack of professional training at all, you get certified in a two-day seminar! And what goes is having supervision when the type of workouts and exercises themselves are what is getting people hurt?

I am sure there are unsafe gyms and unqualified instructors but that is in all fields and every profession.

You're really not paying attention to what is being posted are you? What is your of what Mark Rippetoe said? Or the former affialte from the greyskull gym said?

 

[Roboramma]

How on earth is cross fit woo? Olympic lifting is a method of moving around weights it's not a belief system. I am not aware of any beliefs that are espoused via cross fit.

Do some research on high-rep olympic lifting. It's referred to as multijoint exercise in the ACSM study. Basically, it's stupid and dangerous. Or you could not listen to the "haters"

A Review of Crossfit

Still doesn't make it woo. from rationalwiki

I didn't call it woo, I'm pointing out the problems with the way it uses Olympic lifts!

If you weren't replying to "how on earth is cross fit woo", and only to the latter remarks about olympic lifting, it would have been more clear if you'd just only quoted that part of his post.
Anyway, you agree with Biscuit that cross fit isn't woo?

 

[ThunderChunky]

How on earth is cross fit woo? Olympic lifting is a method of moving around weights it's not a belief system. I am not aware of any beliefs that are espoused via cross fit.

Is it a popular fad? Hell ya it is. It's fun, exciting, and done right has great results. I have been going to gyms since I was 18 (33 now) and I have never enjoyed an exercise more or had better results.

If your results are "getting better at crossfit" then I believe you, because that is what crossfit trains you to do. It's woo because crossfitters promote their class as a superior training regime to proven methods and as a way to get better at sports such as football. If it was promoted as a fun class like Tae bo, and not as a be all end all revolution in fitness science, I would not call it woo.

 

[Joey McGee]

If you weren't replying to "how on earth is cross fit woo", and only to the latter remarks about olympic lifting, it would have been more clear if you'd just only quoted that part of his post.
Anyway, you agree with Biscuit that cross fit isn't woo?

Biscuit actually made the point that there is no paranormal claims in CrossFit. I'm not going to seriously entertain an argument over the definition of "woo". Sorry.

I'm sticking to my claim that it is stupid.

It's like any other alternative medicine

Run by people who are not scientifically qualified to be making the claims they are. Check. Consensus of medical establishment is that it's dangerous or senseless. Check. Lack of scientific basis for the claims they are making about fitness and nutrition. Check. Conspiracy that the established scientific community is attacking them because if their "paradigm" was accepted they would lose money. Check. Will teach absolutely anyone the system to teach to others for a fee with absolutely no quality control or standards. Check. I could continue...

On many threads across the internet the following webpage is discussed.

http://joshsgarage.typepad.com/Crossfit_White_Papers_--_Timeline.html

Reading about the achilles ruptures during one year of the crossfit games regionals was... interesting.

I'll quote from one of the sources for this section

Former elite Crossfitter Gillian Mounsey releases a very honest article on her dissatisfaction with Crossfit. Describes an epiphany that Crossfit was making her good at exercise, not athletics.

http://startingstrength.com/articles/training_perspective_gillian.pdf

In my experience, CrossFit places emphasis on initial instruction that included some rudimentary advice on the barbell lifts. However, form is later sacrificed in the pursuit of a better time. Consequently, I performed the Olympic Lifts with little to no coaching in the “ground to overhead, get it there anyway you can” method. All that mattered was how fast I could do lots of them. My form was an abomination, but my fast Grace time (30 Clean and Jerks, 95lbs for women) was celebrated, and the loss of form due to exertional fatigue was equally celebrated. After all, I could move 95lbs from ground to overhead 30 times in under two minutes! That does not make me an athlete ; it makes me a very fit exerciser with total disregard for the potential for injury and a lack of respect for the sport of weightlifting.

Why is that a problem Gillian?

Additionally, I had suffered a catastrophic injury 16 months prior, herniation of 5 cervical and thoracic discs from a combination of excessive volume muscle-ups and a very high rep, heavy barbell workout performed for time with extreme fatigue and faulty mechanics. I’m guessing now that one should never do 50 bodyweight push presses at the end of a workout already preceded by 200 reps − 50 each of 1.5x bodyweight deadlifts, bodyweight back squats, bodyweight bench presses, and bodyweight cleans.

Ouch! So she quit doing CrossFit drinking the kool-aid and joined Mark Rippetoe, lived happily ever after. Yes she was 3rd in CrossFit games and she's in videos on their site, a true insider...

 

[ThunderChunky]

I was going to link to a video of the crossfit founder pitching his class as a better way to train our millitary because Joe already provided references that show the military has concluded otherwise, but then I came across this...

As researchers start to close in on the causes of autism, some CrossFit gyms are testing treatment theories that suggest exercise can help.
http://journal.crossfit.com/2014/04/rewired-by-the-wod.tpl

Game. Set. Woo.

 

[Roboramma]

Biscuit actually made the point that there is no paranormal claims in CrossFit. I'm not going to seriously entertain an argument over the definition of "woo". Sorry.

I'm sticking to my claim that it is stupid.

First Biscuit says he doesn't think it's woo. Then you argue with him about that. Then you say you never said it was woo. I ask if you agree that it's not woo and you say you don't want to argue about definitions. I'm not trying to argue with you here. If you want to say it's woo, go ahead, if you don't, then just say so. What's so hard about saying "yes, I agree it's not woo, but it is stupid"? Or even, "I don't know if it's woo or not and don't care, because I don't think that term is very clearly defined, I'm just saying it's stupid".

I'm not trying to argue over a definition, I just thought the exchange between you and Biscuit was odd, particularly since you replied to his "How on earth is cross fit woo?" with an argument and then later said "I didn't call it woo". Which is true, but it would make the discussion more productive if instead of arguing you just made your position clear.

 

[Baylor]

Crossfit arguments are becoming ubiquitous on the Internet. I was looking at a calisthenic FB page to help decide what exercises to do tomorrow and saw this:

"This post is not about "crossfit bashing".
We only wanna tell you that we prefer strict pull ups over kipping pull ups. Strict pull ups are much safer and in our mind there is no reason to do the kipping ones."​

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...63840140.68649.154846744637610&type=1&theater

Just about everyone who knows what he's talking about agrees: don't do Crossfit.

 

[Joey McGee]

First Biscuit says he
doesn't think it's woo. Then you argue with him about that. Then you say you never said it was woo. I ask if you agree that it's not woo and you say you don't want to argue about definitions. I'm not trying to argue with you here. If you want to say it's woo, go ahead, if you don't, then just say so. What's so hard about saying "yes, I agree it's not woo, but it is stupid"? Or even, "I don't know if it's woo or not and don't care, because I don't think that term is very clearly defined, I'm just saying it's stupid".

I'm not trying to argue over a definition, I just thought the exchange between you and Biscuit was odd, particularly since you replied to his "How on earth is cross fit woo?" with an argument and then later said "I didn't call it woo". Which is true, but it would make the discussion more productive if instead of arguing you just made your position clear.

I could have been clearer for sure, you have a point...

I pointed out I didn't say it because it all of this bizarre stuff came out about how it means the paranormal and disingenuous and I'm only using it to be deliberately offensive, and nothing in response to the criticisms of the belief systems about O-Lifts. I was trying to make the point that this was a ridiculous attempt to discredit me on some level instead of addressing what I actually said, or what I posted from an O-lift expert a few posts back. Yes, O-lifts are not woo. But the idea of doing them high-rep for speed certainly is!

In my opinion, and really according to the history of the term, woo is just a funny sounding word that people use to make fun of stupid beliefs because it's the sound people make when they are impressed by something, and it's funny when people are impressed by total crap. I can't take a discussion over whether or not something is technically woo or not seriously. It's not a real word to me, the idea that it has a definition that can include qualifiers such as the paranormal or being disingenuous, I just find this strange. I have no problems with it being called "woo" but it's not a word I commonly use or would use to describe a dispute over exercise techniques or diet fads. Is the Zone diet woo? Ratinalwiki seems to think so... fad diets are under "food woo" Is Crossfit then woo for having the zone as their diet? Yeah I guess so. Still, the word woo isn't my style

Upon reflection, perhaps the problem that Biscuit sees is that once something is labelled "woo" in the "skeptic community" then everyone knows it's fair game to bash it as stupid and harmful, even if you're not much of a thinker and just bash it because all of the other "skeptics" do.

I'm comfortable with the fact that high-rep O-lifts are stupid and dangerous, just ask my friend Gillian... wait for it... it's her own fault rigiht?

 

[Joey McGee]

C'mon, lighten up everybody, it's funny!

NSFW - language

 

[Biscuit]

If your results are "getting better at crossfit" then I believe you, because that is what crossfit trains you to do. It's woo because crossfitters promote their class as a superior training regime to proven methods and as a way to get better at sports such as football. If it was promoted as a fun class like Tae bo, and not as a be all end all revolution in fitness science, I would not call it woo.

No. My better results are the loss of 50lbs, increased strength, increased flexibility, increased stamina, better sleep, and less pain. Cross fit is done to mimic how we move in everyday life to make all those movements better. To train your muscles for the actual movements they will be making lifting a box or reaching for something on a shelf. Everyday activities.

I have never had cf promoted to me as anything other than an exercise program and community. No promises were made that I would get better at anything nor have I ever seen a gym promote it as such. It is not woo, it's just exercise. You get out what you put in. You may be mistaking enthusiasm for some sort of cult or belief system but it isn't.

 

[Biscuit]

It's about Crossfit, even Crossfit knows that.

Exercising on your phone screen without supervision is not cross fit. It may have the same moves but lacks the structure. Lumping them together is disingenuous.

HA! Have you been paying attention at all to the arguments about lack of professional training at all, you get certified in a two-day seminar!

So you must be against all types of workouts then because you can become a personal trainer online.

 

[Joey McGee]

Exercising on your phone screen without supervision is not cross fit. It may have the same moves but lacks the structure. Lumping them together is disingenuous.

I don't think you've actually read the paper or the rebuttal, you simply say its invalid because they mention a large amount of trends and systems in one paper. That's not really saying anything at all, or rebutting what they have to say... do you honestly believe these people are that stupid and biased? Do you realize who wrote the paper?

Have you been paying attention at all to the stories of previous CrossFit gym owners, previous elite athletes who have stopped drinking the kool-aid like Gillian, or are you so certain of your own experience and beliefs that all of that can be handwaved away? Typical of someone defending their group blindly...

So you must be against all types of workouts then because you can become a personal trainer online.

So what if they can do it online with "the security of third-party monitoring and authenticating systems."? Does CrossFit recommend you spend 3 months studying before taking their exams as the afaa and acsm do? How hard is it? Really? How serious and complex is Olympic-lifting? Are you even thinking this through?

 

[Joey McGee]

So while we're considering what CrossFit certification SHOULD entail, it's obvious that they are being attacked by the very certification and academic bodies that you claim as authority, the acsm is the premier certification body, no question. And they are the very people in the paper along with the best the military has to offer directly attacking the unscientific basis of their ideas. So while you claim this authority as argument out of one side of your mouth, on the other you are saying they are not credible. So are you really saying that no one is credible at all and we should all just do what we think is helping us? Not very skeptical

 

[Joey McGee]

I guess all of those physical therapists and surgeons and medical clinicians silently chuckling about how CrossFit is benefiting their bottom line which there is ample evidence of here, I guess they just don't "get it" man, I guess they are just not aware of how elite fitness is forged.

 

[mike3]

I guess all of those physical therapists and surgeons and medical clinicians silently chuckling about how CrossFit is benefiting their bottom line which there is ample evidence of here, I guess they just don't "get it" man, I guess they are just not aware of how elite fitness is forged.

So I'm curious: are any of these "fitness programs" out there that are advertised truly good? If so, which ones? If not, then what is the "right" way to get "elite fitness"?

 

[Joey McGee]

Jesus... mike... don't make me smack myself in the head with a facepalm... did you read the thread at all it is only 3 pages.

Good fitness programs follow the established science. Bad ones contradict the established science. Kind of like good clinicians recommend vaccines, and bad ones say they are poison. The right way is to to follow scientifically valid programming and form. The wrong way is to follow drunk, overweight former gymnasts who enjoy the smell of their own ********.

ACSM has many documents and guides on their website. They are in the right, CF is in the wrong, one has proper peer-reviewed evidence, the other is a cult who have their own philosophy on "evidence" Jesus...

 

[Joey McGee]

Oh and that's sarcasm there, because Crossfit's slogan is "forging elite fitness". Yes about to take the professional sports world by storm any moment now... lol... well maybe not since you actually have to go to university and learn real science before a sports team will hire you...

 

[Bikewer]

So I'm curious: are any of these "fitness programs" out there that are advertised truly good? If so, which ones? If not, then what is the "right" way to get "elite fitness"?

First, you'd have to define "elite fitness", I suppose. Navy Seals? Olympic-level decathletes?
Top level triathletes? "Ultra-marathoners"?

Bodies are so different in physical makeup and construction this would be a difficult chore. Folks who are blessed with lots of fast-twitch muscle fiber can train to become very good sprinters and weight-lifters and such, but will never excel at endurance activities.

Look at the pro cyclists. The team sprinters struggle and die in the mountains; many actually abandon the race when the mountain stages start. Yet they can outstrip everyone in that last kilometer......

If you are blessed with lots of slow-twitch muscle fiber, you can become a great marathoner or triathlete; you might swim the English Channel or win the Tour De France...
But you will never become a power-lifter or a top sprinter.

Most folks have a pretty even distribution of both, and can become "the best they can be" at both strength and endurance activities.

Other factors... Physical construction. Long, lean... Long arms and legs? You might do well at a variety of sports activities.
Shorter, more heavily built? Relatively short limb length? You might be a good competitive lifter, wrestler, or whatever... Unlikely you'll excel in sprints or basketball...

To my way of thinking, if you are not a high-level competitive athlete or pro, then attaining "elite" levels of fitness is almost verging on a species of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

You have to spend inordinate amounts of time in the process, and factor in diet and rest periods and everything else in addition to your working life.
And for most, this is a very transient sort of condition. Age, injury, life-circumstance change... These things can all cut your training severely.

As I've gotten older, I'm quite content with a "pretty good" level of fitness. I do my resistance exercise and I ride my bike for the most part. I'm at a decent BMI, my lipid levels are good, and I'm fit enough to do my job.