CrossFit is a stupid and dangerous cult

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'd have thought that if you were 9 months pregnant that you should avoid activities which cause you to pee blood.

 

[firecoins]

Every woman I know who belongs to the Crossfit "box" I go to stops. Makes sense to me. I can't speak for pregnant woman who exercise until they pee blood. I tend to think its a crazy woman and not Crossfit.

One can do Crossfit safely. I understand that you think we all Crossfit until we get some serious injury. That's just not appear to be happening to me. It seems that Crossfit would be sued into bankruptcy if it was as bad as some suggest. I am not sure what scientific studies have been done on Crossfit and injuries. Maybe a link can be provided.

I have been doing it for a year. Workouts are often scaled to abilities if the individuals. Kipping pull ups don't seem as important to me as they do to Crossfit naysayers.

 

[Joey McGee]

There is scientific evidence sitting on one's ass is a leading cause of heart disease and diabetes. I guess I'd rather do kipping pull ups.

Well you are certainly helping me make my point then... you have a choice you know, avoiding high-risk/low reward exercises. I had a peek at the crossfit forums, found many cases of people who injured themselves kipping pull ups, it's *********** pathetic. There is no reason to do those for the average person. It is a recipe for disaster, and the evidence of the wreckage is everywhere.

Every woman I know who belongs to the Crossfit "box" I go to stops. Makes sense to me. I can't speak for pregnant woman who exercise until they pee blood. I tend to think its a crazy woman and not Crossfit.

It's a CF gym and they seem to all be encouraging it... just part of the weirdness of the phenomenon.

One can do Crossfit safely. I understand that you think we all Crossfit until we get some serious injury.

Nope you just invented that, I pointed to evidence that it's harmful to many people and so disorganized and poorly controlled and culturally retarded that many people are bound to get hurt more often than if they just did standard exercise.

That's just not appear to be happening to me.

What about the countless examples of people it is happening to? Are they all just stupid and it's their own fault or maybe didn't follow CF perfectly enough? It's actually a joke amongst physical therapists of all stripes these days that CF is good for business. It's common knowledge... do you need some links for that?

It seems that Crossfit would be sued into bankruptcy if it was as bad as some suggest

Some people have actually successfully sued gyms, is that really your argument that the evidence that has been presented is made up?

I am not sure what scientific studies have been done on Crossfit and injuries. Maybe a link can be provided.

One has already been discussed in this thread it's not even a whole page long yet... are you looking?

I have been doing it for a year. Workouts are often scaled to abilities if the individuals. Kipping pull ups don't seem as important to me as they do to Crossfit naysayers.

If you don't care that CF as a culture promotes extremely questionable techniques that provably get people hurt all the time you're just making my point for me...

 

[Dr. Imago]

I take a little bit of objection with this statement...

Her CPK levels were more than 45,000, a number that indicated damage to the kidneys.

The creatinine phosphokinase(CPK), also known interchangeably as creatinine kinase (CK), number does not necessarily indicate damage to the kidneys, not by itself. That is just a number that quantifies the amount of CPK/CK in the circulation. The number we look at to quantify kidney damage is the creatinine level. This number, in normal healthy kidneys, is about 0.7-1.1 mg/dL (or mg%).

When you "choke" the glomerulus with massive amount of protein, in this case CPK, the kidney will likely go into failure. The number that would indicate that your kidney is failing would be the creatinine number, which correlates to extent of disease by the number of times it has multiplied by your particular baseline value. It is not the CPK number, which just tracks the amount of muscle damage.

There are all manner of conditions that can cause rhabdomyolisis. I've had stroke patients who've been found after lying in one position for days (yes, literally days) who have rhabdo because their body weight has compressed against one spot and caused mild tissue necrosis in that area. I've seen it in people who've been in massive traumatic events, like car accidents and burn patients. Also, it's a good thing we don't normally get CPK levels on marathoners at the end of a race because I think many of them would be shocked.

Now, having said all that, I would expect some sort of acute renal damage with a CK level approaching or exceeding 45,000. The key, like any other athletic endeavor, is to hydrate, hydrate, hydate. But, it will depend on a multitude of other factors such as your baseline overall health and kidney function and what kind of condition your are in before you start the program.

I've heard similar complaints with other exercise programs, such as P90X and others, when people with varying degrees of baseline fitness start these programs and completely overdo it. And, that's really the key here: know your limits, don't push yourself, and when your body hurts or is well past the point of fatigue, stop.

I'm not endorsing or slamming any individual program. Use common sense. That's all.

~Dr. Imago

 

[TeapotCavalry]

If you don't care that CF as a culture promotes extremely questionable techniques that provably get people hurt all the time you're just making my point for me...

Is there actually some kind of official or standard exercise plan you could link to? I know next to nothing about crossfit, but I see little substance in this thread to justify calling it dangerous and stupid. Maybe some specific examples could aid me in understanding. Lennart Hyland already addressed some parts of the Navy SEAL criticism, which I'd like to echo.

As for injuries and stupid people, they're not exclusive to any particular training philosophy.

 

[firecoins]

I have yet to see any evidence Crossfit dangerous in this thread either. I didn't make up that crossfit can be done safely. I do it safely. It is not extreme as some people indicate.

If you want to demonstrate it dangerous, link to the scientific studies.link to the Crossfit forum on the dangers of kipping pull ups and why they would be more dangerous than normal pull ups.

 

[Joey McGee]

TIME did an article...

Some doctors and physical therapists are reporting plenty of other CrossFit injuries. Joe Terry, a physical therapist in Peoria, Ill., has seen a steady stream of CrossFit-induced ailments ranging from knee and pelvic pain to herniated disks to lumbar stress fractures, which cause severe lower-back pain. Buyer beware, says Terry. Make sure your trainer is well versed in proper weight-lifting form. “Certain gyms tend to have healthier clients than others,” says Terry. “Make educated decisions. Don’t be more concerned about beating your time or increasing your rounds than listening to your body.”

http://time.com/4248/lift-squat-repeat-inside-the-crossfit-cult/

What I think a lot of defenders miss out on is that the critics are pointing out that the main flaw of it is the mentality, the culture and the inherent weaknesses of how the company is set up.

Berger won’t apologize for CrossFit’s tactics. Scientists like Robertson, who Berger feels are slandering CrossFit, may want to seek cover. “We’re going to be direct, and we’re going to carry a big stick,” Berger says. “He should feel bullied.” A few days later, Berger wants to amend his words. Bullied is too strong. “They should feel pressure,” Berger says. “People who are unwilling to engage intellectually to try to figure out what the truth is, I think they are going to feel that pressure.”

Uh yeah, ok sure whatever buddy.

Robertson is the scientist author of the article in my OP.

CrossFitters jumped all over him; he shut down his Facebook account. “It was everything from You’re a troll, you’re an idiot, you don’t know what you’re talking about,” Robertson says. “It was nasty all the way through.”

On Twitter, Berger called Robertson’s article a “dishonest hit piece” and badgered Robertson to publicly debate him. After Good Morning America interviewed Robertson for a segment on rhabdo, someone made a spoof of it titled “CrossFit Threatens America.” With Robertson onscreen, a voice dubbed over his actual comments. “With exercise comes risk,” it said. “That’s why I’ve never exercised once in my life.” The narrator belittles an actual rhabdo victim shown onscreen. CrossFit sent out the spoof from its Twitter feed.

Yeah these people clearly know what they're doing...

There are some good ideas that people call CrossFit that aren't original at all, there's nothing wrong with exercising hard or pushing yourself to your limits... there are lots of good aspects to what they do. But you're not going to find me at the local "box", sorry.

 

[Joey McGee]

If you want to demonstrate it dangerous, link to the scientific studies.

Look at post # 9 here. Risk to reward ratio, that's what I'm talking about.

link to the Crossfit forum on the dangers of kipping pull ups and why they would be more dangerous than normal pull ups.

Here's a tip, put "site:crossfit.com kipping injury" into google and spend some time. I'm not here to win a debate I'm here to share a concern.

From the time article...

People are flocking to CrossFit and other extreme exercise programs; the potential physical and social benefits are undeniable. But as hyperintensive exercise programs increase their reach, more health professionals are raising serious concerns. Lifting heavy weights until you’re fatigued can be dangerous, especially if you haven’t mastered the proper technique. Lose sight of your physical limits and you can wind up in the ER. “The overarching question is, Do people need to do this, at such high intensity, repeatedly to failure?” says Michael Bergeron, a professor at the University of South Dakota’s Sanford School of Medicine and the executive director of the National Institute for Athletic Health & Performance. “Most people don’t need to train like that to enhance their health, to look good, to be fit.”

Bergeron sounds credible what else does he have to say?

“Physical therapists and orthopedic surgeons are seeing a boom in business from patients with injuries related to these activities,” says Michael Bergeron, Ph.D., executive director of the National Institute for Athletic Health and Performance in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

That's what people are saying, the risk to reward ratio doesn't make sense. There are many other valid criticisms, I really would just rather bow out of the debate because I'm bored of it.

 

[Joey McGee]

The entries at urbandictionary are pretty hilarious

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crossfit

 

[firecoins]

None of the exercises are original to Crossfit. I didn't realize that was a criticism or even a problem. I guess olympic weightlifting, gymnastics, body weight exercises and running are dangerous with a push it to the limits mentality.

It's an odd criticism that these exercises aren't effective when they are also used by people who wouldn't be caught dead "in the box"

I see a news article, a supposedly credible authority and complaints about the mentality. Never going to make everyone happy. Oh well. Don't really see studies that are effective for or against. Guess one will simply have to make up their own mind.

 

[Joey McGee]

None of the exercises are original to Crossfit. I didn't realize that was a criticism or even a problem.

The boot camp training style and circuit training is not original. What is new about CrossFit is the cult sociology tying it all together with unsafe exercise habits and terrible business practices. See, regulating the gyms would be bad, Glassman is a "rabid libertarian", it's so much freer this way!

I guess olympic weightlifting, gymnastics, body weight exercises and running are dangerous with a push it to the limits mentality.

There is NO REASON to get hurt this bad, this often, trying to increase your strength and fitness. None. Olympic Weightlifting and Gymnastics are hardcore sports where competition is the goal. If you concede that CrossFit is not an exercise system but a sport meant to impress other people, that's fine. People don't get hurt like this doing normal bodyweight exercises and running dude, unless they are training for ultramarathons or trying to make it through BUDS

It's an odd criticism that these exercises aren't effective when they are also used by people who wouldn't be caught dead "in the box"

Who is claiming these exercises aren't effective? What is being claimed is that people who get involved in these organizations do them before their bodies can handle them, with poor form and this happens very often because of the retarded culture being promoted. Certain things they do are debatably very stupid, like kipping. What really is the point in risking that?

I see a news article, a supposedly credible authority and complaints about the mentality. Never going to make everyone happy. Oh well. Don't really see studies that are effective for or against. Guess one will simply have to make up their own mind.

Yeah, you see what you want to see because you're heavily invested. There's plenty of evidence that people are getting hurt here. People aren't supposed to get hurt exercising. They get hurt doing sports. If you admit that CrossFit is a sport and the point is to win against your peers and impress people, okie dokie, as long as people know what they are getting into...

Another article...

http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/exercise/too-much-pain-for-crossfit-gains-20140326

New research is putting numbers to anecdotal evidence of CrossFit's risks. Yuri Feito, a professor of exercise science at Kennesaw State University in Georgia (and a CrossFitter himself), analyzed data from 737 CrossFit participants and found that 51 percent had experienced an injury in the year prior – from minor sprains to muscle tears to broken fingers. Of those, 10 to 15 percent warranted a trip to the hospital. Some injuries, he says, resulted from "overtraining – too many reps, not enough recovery." Another study in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research calculated 3.1 injuries per 1,000 CrossFit sessions. That's about the same rate as competitive weightlifting or training for a triathlon or marathon.

"People have been bred to think of gyms as safe places to work out," says Petranek, "but CrossFit flies in the face of that. It's a sport, more like mountain biking or snowboarding."

If kipping is fun enough for you to risk blowing out your shoulders man, I say go for it.

 

[firecoins]

So Crossfit is no more dangerous than training for a triathlon which I am doing by the way. I think it's understood by most of the people I Crossfit with if not all that there is an increased chance of injury with intense workouts. It's not really surprising. All workouts can be scaled and Crossfit promotes that. I have lowered the weights mid workout as needed.

I am really unsure what "bad" business practices are being done. My "box" is independently owned. I can cancel at any time. I don't believe I've been defrauded. I heard all the criticism before. It's available to anyone.

It was implied in some earlier posts that done if the exercises were ineffective.seems effective to me.

 

[Dr. Imago]

Yes, "cult" may be too strong of a word.

I think there are plenty of examples of motivational techniques out there that don't qualify as "cults". I also don't believe that people completely lose their ability to rationally decide whether or not this program works for them, and to then blindly follow the techniques without further questioning. To me, that would be emblematic of a cult.

This just seems to be a somewhat foolhardy approach to stay motivated towards a physical fitness goal... for some. Of course, you shouldn't get into such a program if you're not ready for it. That's just asking for trouble.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Cuddles]

So Crossfit is no more dangerous than training for a triathlon which I am doing by the way. I think it's understood by most of the people I Crossfit with if not all that there is an increased chance of injury with intense workouts. It's not really surprising.

I've not really heard of Crossfit before, but based on what's been presented in this thread I think I'm with Firecoins here. Let's assume everything Joey Mcgee says is absolutely true - Crossfit is much more dangerous than normal gym workouts and not necessarily any more effective at getting you strong and fit. So what? I regularly strap myself into a plastic shell and throw myself off waterfalls. This is much more dangerous than, well, not doing that, and far less effective at keeping me fit than simply paddling around on flat water. Does this mean I shouldn't do it? Of course not. As long as I understand that whitewater kayaking is not the same as a well-rounded fitness regime, why should I care that's it's more dangerous and less effective at keeping me fit than one?

So sure, there's no reason to get hurt that much just staying fit, and Crossfit has injury incidence more like a sport. OK, so it's a sport. Given that half the complaint is that the culture surrounding it involves competing against each other and yourself, it hardly seems as though anyone involved could avoid realising that. Hell, they have an annual competition with six figure prizes. Of course it's a sport. So if we accept it's a sport and not simply a keep-fit workout, what exactly is the problem?

 

[Joey McGee]

So Crossfit is no more dangerous than training for a triathlon which I am doing by the way. I think it's understood by most of the people I Crossfit with if not all that there is an increased chance of injury with intense workouts. It's not really surprising. All workouts can be scaled and Crossfit promotes that. I have lowered the weights mid workout as needed.

Again, it seems you are simply looking at what you want to see. People are getting hurt for no reason by following dangerous practices, dangerous exercises, there's no reason to do these kinds of things and risk these kinds of injuries simply to get fit which is why so many experts are not fans. We're not talking about the chance of injury from "intense workouts", we're talking about the risk of injury from high-risk, low-reward exercises, and nonsensical training habits. The only reason people are doing them is because crossfit compels them to for some bizarre reason, it's a sport where you compete across everyone else...

I am really unsure what "bad" business practices are being done. My "box" is independently owned. I can cancel at any time. I don't believe I've been defrauded. I heard all the criticism before. It's available to anyone.

The fact that their affiliates are poorly trained, there is no quality control, and their communication with their critics come to mind as being abysmal failures of policy. It's actually the cause of many of the injuries, you heard it from the physical therapist who says he gets more clients from certain kinds of gyms...

It was implied in some earlier posts that done if the exercises were ineffective.seems effective to me.

What is ineffective is doing everything at the same time and not having proper recovery and thinking that pushing yourself and being in pain the next day means you're progressing, that's certainly foolish.

Let's look again at a few Mike Caviston's complaints. This guy is probably more qualified that anyone to comment. Glassman's and the communitiy's comments on him are extremely illuminating to his mindset and why people call it a cult... I'll leave that debate for people to explore on their own.

· Emphasis on exercises with high risk-to-benefits ratio (kipping pull-ups, SDHP, GHD sit-ups, muscle ups, handstand push-ups)
· Inappropriate formats for Olympic and power lifts (such as 21+ dead lifts for time)
· Use of exercises of questionable safety if done rapidly or while fatigued (glute-ham sit-ups, muscle ups, Turkish get-ups)
· Prescribing the same workouts for everybody regardless of ability, experience, or health (the concept of “scaling” is poorly defined and left to the inexperienced individual to determine)
· Too many workouts that blend strength and endurance, reducing the effectiveness of each

 

[Joey McGee]

I've not really heard of Crossfit before, but based on what's been presented in this thread I think I'm with Firecoins here. Let's assume everything Joey Mcgee says is absolutely true - Crossfit is much more dangerous than normal gym workouts and not necessarily any more effective at getting you strong and fit. So what? I regularly strap myself into a plastic shell and throw myself off waterfalls. This is much more dangerous than, well, not doing that, and far less effective at keeping me fit than simply paddling around on flat water. Does this mean I shouldn't do it? Of course not. As long as I understand that whitewater kayaking is not the same as a well-rounded fitness regime, why should I care that's it's more dangerous and less effective at keeping me fit than one?

Because CrossFit dismisses these claims about injuries and their exercises being unsafe and their methods being unwise. Often vehemently, usually hysterically and in ways that have gained them a "cult-like" reputation.

So sure, there's no reason to get hurt that much just staying fit, and Crossfit has injury incidence more like a sport. OK, so it's a sport. Given that half the complaint is that the culture surrounding it involves competing against each other and yourself, it hardly seems as though anyone involved could avoid realising that. Hell, they have an annual competition with six figure prizes. Of course it's a sport. So if we accept it's a sport and not simply a keep-fit workout, what exactly is the problem?

It's not really marketed as such, or sold as such, and it has nothing to do with their philosophy of "functional fitness". What happens in practice is stupid and dangerous, as in there is no reason for it, it provably gets people hurt, and the excitement people have for it is more over the "cult" aspects than actually having a good time exercising.

I have never been to a CrossFit gym, I just know that I'm put off by them, especially their responses to criticism. I mean, Glassman actually insinuated Caviston was putting the military at risk, he was the Director of Fitness at Naval Special Warfare FFS. Glassman is a former gymnast with no academics and has completely let himself go and become fat... (not that it means he's wrong but seriously wtf?)

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004644.html

I cannot and will not give the specifics on the damage to operational readiness that Mr. Caviston has produced. I wish I could but cannot, will not.
...
Mike Caviston in his search for relevance has contributed to that injury rate by 1. not teaching fundamental biomechanics essential to life and operational readiness, and 2. lying and otherwise interfering and sabotaging those who are trying to teach these biomechanics.

********.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Looks like Joey has just chosen a new target for his rage...nothing to see here folks.

 

[Joey McGee]

The Director of Fitness at the Naval Special Warfare Center called members of crossfit "Kool Aid drinkers", I think I'm in good company here. Perhaps he also has a problem with rage at people trying to better themselves as I do, can't be sure. Thanks for the quality attempt at a contribution though.

 

[mijopaalmc]

The Director of Fitness at the Naval Special Warfare Center called members of crossfit "Kool Aid drinkers", I think I'm in good company here. Perhaps he also has a problem with rage at people trying to better themselves as I do, can't be sure. Thanks for the quality attempt at a contribution though.

What exactly are his qualifications beside his fancy title?

Does he have some sort of academic or intellectual background that allows him to make rigorous, evidence-based statements about the safety and efficacy of CrossFit versus his own recommended training program?

Right now, all you seem to have is an argument from authority (i.e., that the Director of Fitness at the Naval Special Warfare Center criticized CrossFit) and an argument from abuse (i.e., that said critic called CrossFit practitioners "KoolAid drinker". Neither of the above arguments actually pertain to the logical or empirical structure of the CrossFit program, which is how a skeptic might go about evaluating claims for and against the safety and efficacy of CossFit.

 

[Joey McGee]

Wow thanks for the great questions...

What exactly are his qualifications

Master's of Kinesiology from the Uni of MI where he lectured on the subject for 14 years. Is that good enough for you?

beside his fancy title?

I would say that the fact he is directly responsible for the fitness of the world's fittest military professionals who undergo the hardest military training in the world makes him highly reputable. To you you this is a "fancy title". Wow...

Does he have some sort of academic or intellectual background that allows him to make rigorous, evidence-based statements about the safety and efficacy of CrossFit versus his own recommended training program?

Definitely, and if you take the time out of your day to actually research the subject and listen to what he says, you might learn something.

Right now, all you seem to have is an argument from authority (i.e., that the Director of Fitness at the Naval Special Warfare Center criticized CrossFit) and an argument from abuse (i.e., that said critic called CrossFit practitioners "KoolAid drinker". Neither of the above arguments actually pertain to the logical or empirical structure of the CrossFit program, which is how a skeptic might go about evaluating claims for and against the safety and efficacy of CossFit.

That's not all that I've presented in this thread. Maybe read it and then try commenting?

Do you demand hyperlinks that kipping pull-ups, sumo deadlift high-pulls etc are dangerous?

Are you honestly interested or are you just trying to stir the pot because you'd love to teach me a lesson about calling groups "cults"?