[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[Craig B]

TubbaBlubba

That "digging" of yours makes the situation clear. Over to Humes fork, I think.

 

[ddt]

Oh my god, you're citing an anecdote on Flashback, well-known haven of xenophobes, racists and other right-wing extremists as a source on Islam? Flashback is a huge forum and many things, but there certainly are a lot of far-right folks there.

Let's dig a little about this guy!

<snip>

https://www.flashback.org/sp16779631

"No, I've been leaning toward the Sweden Democrats since earlier, I've been against immigration all the time. I didn't feel like a vote for SD in the EU was right, though, so it's not about a change in values. I've always disliked Muslims..."

So he's been one of those well-known self-hating Muslims?

And yes: He is serious. This guy is an ultraconservative fundamentalist Christian fascist.

He sounds like Breivik's twin brother. (and yes I know Breivik is Norwegian).

There's no way he's nuts to begin with, or made up that anecdote, right?

Absolutely not. Great hunting. However... with the help of Google Translate, I can pretend to know Swedish too. I googled a bit around to find some more quotes of his.

Let me play devil's advocate at this moment. This is a skeptics board, after all.
1) His story about his alleged Muslim past dates back to December 2008.
2) Your links date back to May 2009 the earliest, and the religious one from January 2010.
3) There's also this thread about Islam, where he enters the first time on page 23, and says on page 25, in January 2009:

All major monotheistic religions is hop out immunized theories. I believe neither in Christianity, Judaism or Islam. All are wrong.

(translation errors courtesy Google Translate).
4) This thread, October 2009, is also interesting, it seems he speaks approvingly of bishop Richard Williamson (though not about his Holocaust denial).

So, could it be that he started out atheist, or at least disinterested in religion; then around the age of 15 became Muslim, even Salafi; got disillusioned with it around age 18, and for a short while was atheist (again); and then found salvation in traditionalist Catholicism?

 

[Ryokan]

Apologist!

 

[Craig B]

So, could it be that he started out atheist, or at least disinterested in religion; then around the age of 15 became Muslim, even Salafi; got disillusioned with it around age 18, and for a short while was atheist (again); and then found salvation in traditionalist Catholicism?

A sharp dose of robust Calvinism would cure the lad of all this!

 

[ddt]

A sharp dose of robust Calvinism would cure the lad of all this!

Quite indeed. It would thoroughly convince him for the rest of his life that he is a depraved sinner through and through, and nor worthy of God's salvation.

 

[ddt]

Apologist!

Devil's advocate is the correct job title. Someone's got to do the dirty work, isn't it? But seriously, I ask in all earnest whether such a religious history is possible or remotely probable. I've been atheist all my life and not tempted to become religious ever, so I need a bit of help in getting into this mindset.

From the threads I've seen the guy participated in, I see this chronological succession of religious statements. Maybe you can help with some better translation - your native tongue is a west-Swedish dialect so you are in a better position to read the originals than I am.

ETA: And I agree in any case with TubbaBubba that he is an extremist nutcase. Well, that, or a very good troll.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

A sharp dose of robust Calvinism would cure the lad of all this!

Considering his post on Haiti, and that his signature line is the well-known "potter" line about the "vessels made from destruction" from Romans (with that part bolded), yeah, Calvinist is probably right.

 

[Ryokan]

Devil's advocate is the correct job title. Someone's got to do the dirty work, isn't it? But seriously, I ask in all earnest whether such a religious history is possible or remotely probable. I've been atheist all my life and not tempted to become religious ever, so I need a bit of help in getting into this mindset.

I was joking. It's common to be called apologist by certain people if you try to correct their errors on the topic of Islam.

Maybe you can help with some better translation - your native tongue is a west-Swedish dialect so you are in a better position to read the originals than I am.

If you're just going to insult me, we have nothing further to talk about!



(Yeah, I have no problems reading Swedish.)

 

[Humes fork]

Christopher Hitchens' definition of "Islamophobia"

"A word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons." - Christopher Hitchens

Found in this conversation between Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which is very interesting and you should read it.

 

[angrysoba]

I seem to remember a similar thread about this word. When it was looked up didn't it turn out that the word was created by a group of people called the Runnymede Trust, who are, according to Wikipedia, "a left-wing [1] think tank founded in 1968 by Jim Rose and Anthony Lester,[2] with aim of acting as an independent race equality think tank by generating intelligence for a multi-ethnic Britain through research, network building, leading debate, and policy engagement".

 

[catsmate]

Perhaps we simply need a new term for the irrational, unthinking and obsessive anti-Islamic prejudice that some people (and posters) display? Islamomania?

 

[Ryokan]

The iirational hate some people have of Islam and Muslims is quite similar to antisemitism and hatred of Jews, so why not anti-islamism?

 

[Humes fork]

The iirational hate some people have of Islam and Muslims is quite similar to antisemitism and hatred of Jews, so why not anti-islamism?

Islamism is political Islam (actually default Islam really), Sharia law and whatnot. I would hope people are against that.

"Islamophobia" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of Islam.

 

[angrysoba]

Islamism is political Islam (actually default Islam really), Sharia law and whatnot. I would hope people are against that.

"Islamophobia" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of Islam.

It's possible that it is. I don't know.

But then again, is this also the case with the word "racism", or the word "anti-semitism", or the word "bigot"?

Do you recognize that there are some people who genuinely do have an almost pathological hatred for people not like them, such as for black people, or Jewish people or Muslims?

 

[Humes fork]

Do you recognize that there are some people who genuinely do have an almost pathological hatred for people not like them, such as for black people, or Jewish people or Muslims?

Yes. Do you recognize that criticism of a belief-system is not "hatred for people not like them"?

 

[angrysoba]

Yes. Do you recognize that criticism of a belief-system is not "hatred for people not like them"?

Yes. So that's two things we agree on. Great!

 

[Ryokan]

Islamism is political Islam (actually default Islam really), Sharia law and whatnot. I would hope people are against that.

You almost had a point, if it hadn't been for your 'atually default Islam really' quip. Why did you do that? No, don't answer. It's off topic. But think about it.

"Islamophobia" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of Islam.

I disagree. People with an irrational fear of Islam and Muslims do exist, and I don't think it's unnatural that we try to find a word that describes that.

What do you call people who fear the imminent takeover of Europe by Islam? What do you call people who fear that Europe will fall under Sharia law at any moment? What do you call people who are convinced that there's a conspiracy that every Muslim is part of to outbreed white Europeans?

What do you call people like SIOE and all their national branches - who embraces the word islamophobia themselves?

It's quite clear to me that we need a word to describe this antisemitism-like hatred towards Islam and Muslims. If Islamophobia isn't good enough, then we need to find another one.

 

[sophia8]

I seem to remember a similar thread about this word. When it was looked up didn't it turn out that the word was created by a group of people called the Runnymede Trust

You should really read the links that you post. Other sections of that page point out that the term was used as early as 1918.
As for the Runnymede Trust, that's a registered charity which has produced reports on all varieties of discrimination, including discrimination against the white working class. Their funding comes from a variety of donors, which include large businesses and banks, plus the UK government. Yes, it's horribly left-wing.

 

[angrysoba]

You should really read the links that you post. Other sections of that page point out that the term was used as early as 1918.
As for the Runnymede Trust, that's a registered charity which has produced reports on all varieties of discrimination, including discrimination against the white working class. Their funding comes from a variety of donors, which include large businesses and banks, plus the UK government. Yes, it's horribly left-wing.

Ah, yes. Actually I saw that but assumed those early uses were irrelevant and that the common use had been created by the Runnymede Trust independently of the earlier ones.

Either way, I don't think that any of those users of the term were fascists, were they?

 

[ddt]

Either way, I don't think that any of those users of the term were fascists, were they?

The OED are fascists for trying to foist on all of us their idea of what constitutes proper English!

OK, I'll get my coat.