[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[MontagK505]

Yes, it's become less a Christian thing.
But be a protestant in a catholic area of Northern Ireland (or vice versa)
Walk with a Man U shirt in certain areas of Manchester after they beat Man city
Drive around with Gay love is OK in certain areas of the US (Top gear episode)
Make fun of the Thai king as a foreigner in Thailand
Say you'd rather want the Crimea to stay Ukrainian in Sevastopol now.
Be a teenager making a bad tweet joke about American airlines.
Be a sport start for team X and then join team Y which has always been team X's big rivals.
Leave an abusive spouse.
Look at a drunk the wrong way.

Each of these examples has led to similar death threats and even physical abuse. And in each case it's just as stupid as an apostasy threat. Yet they happen just as often if not a LOT more.
I'd say to condemn a person for their actions, not for the actions of those of their affiliated sports/religion etc.

Yes, but these threats don't openly come from heads of state. If Putin or Obama openly did something like this the screeching would be loud and clear. I don't know of any Islamic state that criticized Iran for the Salman Rushdie incident. In fact, few Muslim clerics denounced it.
If it's fear or agreement that causes the silence, what does that say about the nature of Islamic politics?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Yes, but these threats don't openly come from heads of state. If Putin or Obama openly did something like this the screeching would be loud and clear. I don't know of any Islamic state that criticized Iran for the Salman Rushdie incident. In fact, few Muslim clerics denounced it.
If it's fear or agreement that causes the silence, what does that say about the nature of Islamic politics?

The Obama administration has made no secret of the fact it wishes to disappear Edward Snowden, and the other world leaders haven't said boo. Hell, they illegally forced down and searched the Bolivian president's jet on the rumor that Snowden might be on it.

 

[MontagK505]

The Obama administration has made no secret of the fact it wishes to disappear Edward Snowden, and the other world leaders haven't said boo. Hell, they illegally forced down and searched the Bolivian president's jet on the rumor that Snowden might be on it.

Has President Obama put a death price on Snowden's head? Wanting to arrest and try him for leaking classified information dosen't compare with what Khomeini did to Rushdie. Rushdie was accused of blasphemy not espionage.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Has President Obama put a death price on Snowden's head? Wanting to arrest and try him for leaking classified information dosen't compare with what Khomeini did to Rushdie. Rushdie was accused of blasphemy not espionage.

So, different countries use different methods. At the time of Khomeini the US was supporting a large number of dictators and helped their secret services kill prominent dissidents.
China is not above such actions either and threatens severe sanctions against any nations accepting the 'heresy' of a free Tibet or harbouring falong gung (sp?)
Russia just made clear that having a government they don't like on their borders can cost you parts of your country.

Yes, Khomeini and his successors are unique in that they run one of the few openly theocratic countries in the world and so they use their religion to do their politics. And they are people that have views of the world I personally find repugnant and do horrible things. But I still do not see how this is something inherent in the religion.
The UK has a lot of muslims. I don't recall rioting in the streets by each and every one of them, or even a significant amount following the fatwah demanding Rushdie's head. It's almost as if they didn't care.
The only mass protests were in countries where the governments have an 'obey or suffer' regime, with fully state controlled media who happen to have a lot to gain from introducing a common enemy to distract from internal problems.

 

[ddt]

So, different countries use different methods. At the time of Khomeini the US was supporting a large number of dictators and helped their secret services kill prominent dissidents.

As a case in point (a little bit earlier), one that occurred on the same date of the year as the terrorist attack on the WTC and the Pentagon.

11 September 1973 was the date that Pinochet toppled with a military coup the government of Allende, the last democratic government at that time on the South-American continent. Pinochet's regime committed numerous human rights violations, to put it mildly, and murdered more people than were murdered on 11 September 2001.

 

[mikado]

Yes, it's become less a Christian thing.
But be a protestant in a catholic area of Northern Ireland (or vice versa)
Walk with a Man U shirt in certain areas of Manchester after they beat Man city
Drive around with Gay love is OK in certain areas of the US (Top gear episode)
Make fun of the Thai king as a foreigner in Thailand
Say you'd rather want the Crimea to stay Ukrainian in Sevastopol now.
Be a teenager making a bad tweet joke about American airlines.
Be a sport start for team X and then join team Y which has always been team X's big rivals.
Leave an abusive spouse.
Look at a drunk the wrong way.

Each of these examples has led to similar death threats and even physical abuse. And in each case it's just as stupid as an apostasy threat. Yet they happen just as often if not a LOT more.
I'd say to condemn a person for their actions, not for the actions of those of their affiliated sports/religion etc.

That was the best top gear episode ever...... we nearly fell off our chairs laughing!

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The Obama administration has made no secret of the fact it wishes to disappear Edward Snowden, and the other world leaders haven't said boo. Hell, they illegally forced down and searched the Bolivian president's jet on the rumor that Snowden might be on it.

The Obama administration has stated it wishes to disappear Snowden because he denounced Islam? I thought he leaked documents or something...

 

[Orphia Nay]

It seems pretty odd that some people are asking for evidence when the link is practically the first thing in the OP:

From a Swedish forum, translated by me:

From Google Translate:

Hello there. , I have been a member here at Flashback awhile philosophy section but I have not told you about myself anything. I am a former Muslim, has been active in a number of years and has resided in Egypt and studied at a sheikh in northern Yemen (Damaj). I was a Salafi and believed very strongly in Islam, spent all my days reading books by including Ibn Taymiyyah, and more to beat off doubts from secular. Through the years I began to realize that something was wrong with Islam, I had to immunize my faith from criticism and did a lot of ad hoc hypotheses to escape the scientific theories that undermine Islam from scratch. Although problems within Islamic theology made ​​me understand that religion could not be true. Luckily, I went back to Sweden and lived with my family far from the other practitioner Salafi Muslims. I realized that the Muslims made ​​a number of errors in their philosophical discussions, the Quran is full of apparent contradictions were said to have abrogerade parts, clearer verses that "took over" other more obscure parts. Even the very God Guard realized I was a contradictory metaphysical waiver that had some sort because neither from reason or empirical evidence. After I left Islam approached the mosque Skarholmen (the Moroccan mosque) a relatively famous sheikh by ​​the name Ar-Ruhaydaan (student of Ibn Baz) who gave a fatwa that I would be executed if I was in Saudi Arabia. Something I did not find out förren long after it happened. What I want to share with me out and I also want to say how unhappy this religion made ​​me feel, at the end of my time as religious, I was determined to go out in Djihad to get rid of life. I want to thank those of you who write against Islam on this forum, you are making the only moral and you contribute to our children can have a safer and more sensible future. Wish that one day it's a world where we all live for this life only, and that superstition is a historical phenomenon that will never repeat itself. , I'm just 19 years old and wanted to share with you this for those who doubt how barbaric Islam is to stop doubting, when the death sentence was issued, I was only 18. Regards / an enlightened atheist.

Regards

Orph.

 

[Brainache]

It seems pretty odd that some people are asking for evidence when the link is practically the first thing in the OP:



From Google Translate:



Regards

Orph.

You know, I never believed these letters to Penthouse were true, until one day when I was reading the Qur'an and my neighbour Jasmin stopped by to borrow some falafel...

 

[marplots]

Is there some kind of website/clearinghouse for fatwahs and death sentences? Or is that too 21st century?

I'm just thinking it might get confusing...

 

[ddt]

It seems pretty odd that some people are asking for evidence when the link is practically the first thing in the OP:

No-one is claiming that Humes Fork makes up the story. But there is no corroborating evidence that the poster at that Swedish forum is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. A lot of it is vague and the connections are not clear. He tells some more in post #16 in that thread. He is of Swedish, not immigrant, ancestry, and he had some problems with his parents. But that's all we get.

Still, what parents would let their 15 or 16-year old kid go on a trip into a country where civil war rages? I'm just guessing at the age, as we never get to hear that.

 

[Mister Agenda]

From a
Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

Intolerant Imams willing to issue death fatwas on apostates? Wow, that sure is news, and no doubt by now dozens of people have posted to indicate their contention that such a fatwa is actually tolerant.

 

[Mister Agenda]

QED.

Yeah, 'cause only an Islamic apologist wouldn't take this story at face value, amIright?

 

[Mister Agenda]

The issue is political as well as religious. Most Islamic states have their political ideology's and religious ideology's thoroughly meshed. As I pointed out, Salman Rushdie had a death price put on him by the leader of a major Islamic state. Few, if any, other Islamic states criticized this. In the 12th century this would not have been unique. In the 21st century most civilized countries regard this as abhorrent. Is this inherent to Islam? No, just imagine Christian crusaders with automatic weapons. The Christian crusaders are largely gone. But their Islamic brain brothers are still around.

Sure, but who here supports Islamism (state Islam)? For Hume, it is not enough to be against Islamism, you have to despise Islam itself in all of its forms or you're an apologist.

 

[Mister Agenda]

It seems pretty odd that some people are asking for evidence when the link is practically the first thing in the OP:

From Google Translate:

Regards

Orph.

If the evidence requested was that someone actually made such a post, that would have been very helpful. However, my impression was that the request was for information indicating the anecdote is actually true.

I'm not one of those, btw, if this didn't actually happened to this particular poster, it has certainly happened to other people, so the basic point of whether it represents tolerance stands, despite how obvious it is that the answer is 'no'.

 

[Chaos]

If the evidence requested was that someone actually made such a post, that would have been very helpful. However, my impression was that the request was for information indicating the anecdote is actually true.

Precisely.

In particular, I wonder how someone who claims to have been a Salafi and to have studied Islam didn´t realize "until long after it happened" what the sentence for his converting from Islam would be. That is, like, Islamist Fundamentalism 101.

 

[hgus]

For what is it worth. I have read the whole thread at the Swedish forum, and the poster seems sincere and knowledgeable. I believe his story and it is as appalling as is all intolerance.

Is Islam more intolerant than Christianity? At present it clearly is. But if we go back in history I would argue that Christianity have been more intolerant than Islam most of the time. It is my strong opinion that the tolerance of a religion reflects the society that it is active in.

The dividing-line is not between religions, secularists or any other -isms. The dividing-line is between the fanatics and the rest of us.

 

[hgus]

Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

What is your purpose with these drive by postings? I could do the same with any religion and ideology. You prove nothing except that you have an unhealthy obsession against Islam.

 

[The Don]

I'm not one of those apologists.
Salman Rushdie had a death price placed on his head by Ayatollah Khomeini, the religious leader of a major Islamic state. Now, we're not talking about somebody hiding in a hole in the mountains of Afghanistan, but the Ayatollah of Iran. How many leaders of major Islamic countries have openly denounced this?

You can place a plastic Jesus in a jar of urine and you don't have to worry too much about Jesuit hit-men. You can claim Buddha was full of poop and you don't have to worry about assassins in orange robes. But say something bad about Islam? You better watch your back. Islamic ideology encourages murdering people who openly criticize it.

Quite correct, but you can be detained and deported from Sri Lanka for having a Buddha tattoo...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27107857

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Oh my god, you're citing an anecdote on Flashback, well-known haven of xenophobes, racists and other right-wing extremists as a source on Islam? Flashback is a huge forum and many things, but there certainly are a lot of far-right folks there.

Let's dig a little about this guy!


https://www.flashback.org/p16762025#p16762025

"I vote for whatever party will contribute to the EU becoming a fascist state and the old nations of Europe dissolving. The reason is emotional: I simply like a strong Europe."

https://www.flashback.org/sp16779631

"No, I've been leaning toward the Sweden Democrats since earlier, I've been against immigration all the time. I didn't feel like a vote for SD in the EU was right, though, so it's not about a change in values. I've always disliked Muslims..."

https://www.flashback.org/sp17057568

"Let tomorrow be the success of Sweden, tomorrow will be the day when Sweden's representants get into the EU! The day we nationalists have waited for, the day we can be happy for our people!

Sweden Democrats for the Riksdag! Social Democrats for the trash bin!"

Oooh, here's a good one!
https://www.flashback.org/p18644424#p18644424

"What we need is a social movement to strengthen and preserve the "male dominance" without political involvement. We men have given bith to and created this society (Of course women have helped - but they are not mainly responsible). We ought ot be proud of this, and the matriarchy in today's media and political cirlces has gone too far. What can we do? That is the question."

Or how about this?
https://www.flashback.org/p21053275#p21053275

"The answer isn't difficult - we all deserve what the ones in Haiti god (there is no doubt about it - God created the catastrophe in Haiti - God controls the world.) No one deserves peace and wealth as we all are sinners. It is an undeserved gift to be safe in this world! There is also no doubt that God hates some people, based on Scripture:

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

It doesn't say God hated iniquity but loved the one who did it, and not that God "abhorred" sin and not the sinner. Rather the opposite! I understand that this is difficult to digest, but God has not done anything the Haitians did not deserve. Children, adults, women, and tourists all deserved the catastrophe that occurred..."

And yes: He is serious. This guy is an ultraconservative fundamentalist Christian fascist. There's no way he's nuts to begin with, or made up that anecdote, right?