General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nick Terry]

The last I heard, Colls' main doctoral work was withheld from publication or even consultation until 2016/17.

Just a quick comment - this is a misunderstanding of current Anglo-American academic practices regarding dissertations. In the UK and US, there is no expectation that the dissertation is published in order to award the doctorate whereas publication is part of the process in Germany.

In the old days, a bound and printed PhD thesis would sit in a university library and could only be consulted there, until ProQuest scanned a copy. These days, they can be digitised and often have to be submitted electronically. Anglo-American PhD theses can be embargoed from electronic publication in open-access depositories for about 5 years in order that the author can publish them conventionally in book form. This is quite standard, and is visible in the elibraries of countless universities.

It's fairly clear that Sturdy Colls is publishing widely on the subject of her PhD thesis and I'd expect the book version within a few years, again that is quite normal - in the US, the whole point of the tenure track period, and in the UK the whole point of the probation period between Lecturer and Senior Lecturer, is to give the academic the chance to revise, expand and polish up their work for publication.

 

[Dcdrac]

having read this

It is clear remains were found and then reinterred

It is clear that you do not have to dig deeply at Treblinka to find human remains as can be seen here:

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...urvey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/

•Geophysical survey and targeted test pits at Treblinka II have demonstrated the complexity of the buried environment and the considerable disturbance that was present across the entire site.
•Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations. These remains were scattered remains, not buried in mass graves. All of these remains were reinterred by a representative from the Office of the Chief Rabbi of Poland.

 

[Mondial]

Youtube has applied censorship and banned the Eric Hunt documentary on Treblinka. It can be found here - www.gaschamberhoax.com

 

[Nessie]

Youtube has applied censorship and banned the Eric Hunt documentary on Treblinka. It can be found here - www.gaschamberhoax.com

So I keep reading, so I go into You Tube and I can watch it. I have never not been able to watch it.

 

[Nessie]

The fact of transits through Treblinka and Sobibor has been known since the 1940s. It has also been discussed in a fair number of relevant historical works and court cases. E.g selections from Warsaw ghetto transports at Treblinka for Majdanek in spring 1943 were already mentioned in Poliakov and Reitlinger in 1951 and 1953 respectively. Transports arriving at Sobibor were selected for Trawniki and Dorohucza in 1943. The Bialystok ghetto liquidation action in August 1943 was known to have been selected and partially transited to Majdanek and labour camps in the Lublin district. Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka stationmaster, said so in 1945. The same thing happened to the transports from Minsk in the Ostland in September 1943 - sent to Sobibor and Treblinka in both cases selected.

The pattern is fairly clear: selections became more extensive in 1943. .........

For me the distinction between transit and selection is important. I see evidence for selections that took place so that some did not enter the camp and were gassed. I do not see any transits whereby people entered the camps and were deloused, given a medical, clothing changed or anything like that.

I say Hunt is trying to make out selections to be transits.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I was referring to the single grave that she confirmed to be such by partially excavating it,

“We mapped what we can. We’ve identified 11 individual pits that we can survey,” said Sturdy Colls, whose work is ongoing. “A good chunk of the memorial was built where they thought the mass graves were, so there is a good chance there are more in the forest and under the memorial itself."

which as I said was the one well outside Treblinka II.

Can you mark on this map where you think she found the single grave outside of Treblinka II? Use her map. This may help you.

 

[EtienneSC]

Can you mark on this map where you think she found the single grave outside of Treblinka II? Use her map. This may help you.

It was well outside that area, well below the area shown on the map. I was referring to the excavated grave shown in the 2013 documentary, where the skeleton and skull were found.

 

[Charles Traynor]

The skeletal remains along with the skull were found near the T1 penal camp. What Caroline Sturdy Colls and the documentary makers did not reveal to their viewers is that she was actually digging in a location which was known to be a cemetery. It is therefore hardly surprising CSC discovered some human remains.


http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1691&start=20#p36820

 

[Nessie]

The skeletal remains along with the skull were found near the T1 penal camp. What Caroline Sturdy Colls and the documentary makers did not reveal to their viewers is that she was actually digging in a location which was known to be a cemetery. It is therefore hardly surprising CSC discovered some human remains.


http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1691&start=20#p36820

CS-C has said the study is of the whole Treblinka site. She described the whole site as a place of death and she believes TI was also a part of that. So excavations have taken place of earth disturbances in the same area as the cemetery. Not all apparent graves are marked and it is such that the LIDAR survey found and mass graves including a child's skull were uncovered. This video shows the area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7k9sg9hzMk

It is yet more evidence that many, many people died at the two camps.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Let us try again.

Are you saying that Hunt is demanding evidence of burial pits, but not full of bodies?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Now look at Dr Colls' map. Look at the soil disturbances that indicate mass graves or burial pits. (Yellow). Are you simply denying these exist? If not, can you offer your hypothesis for what they may be?

Can you suggest what the Commanding Officer of Treblinka, Hauptsturmführer Stangl, is discussing when he said "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses."

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The skeletal remains along with the skull were found near the T1 penal camp. What Caroline Sturdy Colls and the documentary makers did not reveal to their viewers is that she was actually digging in a location which was known to be a cemetery. It is therefore hardly surprising CSC discovered some human remains.

Are you suggesting that this was the only human remains Dr Colls found? That would be incorrect and misleading, wouldn't it?

Are you also suggesting that Dr Colls, a forensic archaeologist, doesn't know the difference between a single grave (with a grave stone at the top of each grave) and the burial pit she found in the extermination camp that measured 27metres by 17metres by at least 4metres in depth?

Are you now declaring the holocaust didn't happen because the documentary didn't say state in the audio it was a graveyard, while the camera was panning over the gravestones?

 

[Charles Traynor]

Are you suggesting that this was the only human remains Dr Colls found? That would be incorrect and misleading, wouldn't it?

<snip>

Caroline Sturdy Colls dug 3 exploratory trenches in a cemetery and found a grand total of 40 bones (this was hardly surprising when one considers where she was digging).

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1691&start=50#p37034

Are you also suggesting that Dr Colls, a forensic archaeologist, doesn't know the difference between a single grave (with a grave stone at the top of each grave) and the burial pit she found in the extermination camp that measured 27metres by 17metres by at least 4metres in depth?

I only posted here originally to confirm where the human remains found outside the T1 penal camp were found. I did not come here to discuss an alleged mass grave located somewhere within the perimeter of T2 which was NEVER mentioned in Treblinka: Hitler’s secret death camp.

However, I will humour you for the sake of of our readers who may not as yet have had the opportunity to watch this documentary. From what I have seen of CSC’s mendacity thus far it would be reasonable to assume her final decision on whether a grave is classified as single or mass would depend on the needs of the Hoax at the time.

CSC thought she knew where the alleged large gas chamber was located. She was shown to be wrong! Until the alleged mass grave at T2 is excavated and is proven to exist it remains a figment of Caroline Sturdy Colls’s vivid imagination as far as I am concerned.

Are you now declaring the holocaust didn't happen because the documentary didn't say state in the audio it was a graveyard, while the camera was panning over the gravestones?

What I am stating as FACT is that CSC and the film makers made a conscious decision to lie to their ignorant and uninformed television viewers about the location of trenches 1-3. The camera did NOT pan across the gravestones. All we viewers saw was an artistic shot of the dig from behind a cross lasting for around 1.5 seconds at most. NEVER ONCE in the entire documentary was it stated that trenches 1 to 3 were located in a cemetery! I suspect the cross may have been left in the finished documentary as a private in joke between CSC and the film crew.

To summarise:

CSC’s investigations have failed miserably and have actually proven to be a bullet in the foot for the hoax.

<snip>

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited. Moderated thread. Selective editing to preserve most of a post is done as a courtesy by a moderator. In future, such posts may simply be deleted in their entirety.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Are you suggesting that this was the only human remains Dr Colls found? That would be incorrect and misleading, wouldn't it?

Caroline Sturdy Colls dug 3 exploratory trenches in a cemetery and found a grand total of 40 bones (this was hardly surprising when one considers where she was digging).

"Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations. These remains were scattered remains, not buried in mass graves. All of these remains were reinterred by a representative from the Office of the Chief Rabbi of Poland."

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...urvey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/

Are you now declaring the holocaust didn't happen because the documentary didn't say state in the audio it was a graveyard, while the camera was panning over the gravestones?

I suspect the cross may have been left in the finished documentary as a private in joke between CSC and the film crew.

So you are saying that a Christian grave stone appears on screen but you felt a bit confused and felt it could be Dr Colls digging up a Jewish mass grave at the extermination camp. Did it occur to you that the rest of us didn't have a problem recognising a christian gravestone?

CSC thought she knew where the alleged large gas chamber was located. She was shown to be wrong!

Here are the tiles from the old gas chamber that Dr Colls team excavated. Didn't you know this?

 

[EtienneSC]

Let us try again.
Now look at Dr Colls' map. Look at the soil disturbances that indicate mass graves or burial pits. (Yellow). Are you simply denying these exist? If not, can you offer your hypothesis for what they may be?

OK, MGK, in The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhard", page 1,228) write:

"Łukaszkiewicz found several bomb craters on the camp grounds and even two unexploded bombs. The largest crater was 6 m deep and possessed a diameter of approximately 25 m." (page 1,232)

There is reference to human remains in connection with these craters, which MGK do not dismiss. The size is similar in to one of the pits identified by Colls. I can also offer you Colls' suggestion about some of the other pits:

"Some may be the result of post-war looting, prompted by myths of buried Jewish gold, but several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites.

One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east."

And she refers to another five pits. In January 2012, she described them as "probable graves" (University of Birmingham, "Ideas Lab" radio program, cited by Kues), which has since become a "strong case", though the inference merely from size and location seems weak. In your post they have become "soil disturbances that indicate mass graves or burial pits", without qualification.

The main point is that the total volume found is 1,768 m³,as against the 37,500 m³ that can be extrapolated from eyewitness testimony (Wiernik) and the large area necessary to bury 700,000 bodies (according to Kues, Ibid, page 926). Perhaps for this reason, Colls stated in a newspaper interview in 2012 that she thought "most of the mass graves are located under the granite stones".

Can you suggest what the Commanding Officer of Treblinka, Hauptsturmführer Stangl, is discussing when he said[/COLOR] "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses."

Stangl was still appealing his sentence at the Düsseldorf trial in 1970 at the time of his death in 1971. His testimony is problematic. Nonetheless, it is widely accepted that there are graves within the Treblinka II camp, including by MGK.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Now look at Dr Colls' map. Look at the soil disturbances that indicate mass graves or burial pits. (Yellow). Are you simply denying these exist? If not, can you offer your hypothesis for what they may be?

OK, MGK, in The "Extermination Camps" of "Aktion Reinhard", page 1,228) write:

I am not asking you to look at a old book by holocaust deniers. I am asking you to look at the mass burial pits recently measured by Dr Colls. Try again. Look at the soil disturbances that indicate mass graves or burial pits. (Yellow). Are you simply denying these exist? If not, can you offer your hypothesis for what they may be?

Łukaszkiewicz found several bomb craters on the camp grounds and even two unexploded bombs. The largest crater was 6 m deep and possessed a diameter of approximately 25 m." (page 1,232)

I warned you to read Łukaszkiewicz to spot these hilarious deceptive edits by MGK. Let us look at their lies together.

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition

Why do you think MGK didn't quote this about mass burial pits?

At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Did MGK not read about the 7.5 metres depth of burial pits in Łukaszkiewicz report? Have you informed them of their error as a honest revisionist?

During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The ground of the camp was ploughed and sown.

Did MGK include this quote for Łukaszkiewicz? If not, why not?

The size is similar in to one of the pits identified by Colls.

Dr Colls found an empty mass grave of 26metres x 17 metres and didn't reach the bottom (probably 7.5 metres.) Do you think this is the same pit Łukaszkiewicz excavated or have you identified another very empty large burial pit at Treblinka? ( Thanks for that) What does the map below, that you wont look at, suggest?

The main point is that the total volume found is 1,768 cubic metres

17 x 26 x 7.5 = 3315 cubic metres. An living adult male fits into 0.069022m³. That's 48,000 living adult bodies in that one pit. I wonder how many children they could squeeze in? What do you think? You do realise that not all of the 800,000 Jews were buried before being burnt? Yes? No?

"I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses."

His testimony is problematic.

You mean, the man who committed the crime said he did it and what he saw, is lying despite the fact Dr Colls is now measuring those pits? Does that make sense to you?

 

[EtienneSC]

I warned you to read Łukaszkiewicz to spot these hilarious deceptive edits by MGK. Let us look at their lies together.

I can't find it. Searching for "RODOH forum Lukaszkiewitz" on Bing and google doesn't work. Can you provide a link to the online translation you refer to?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I warned you to read Łukaszkiewicz to spot these hilarious deceptive edits by MGK. Let us look at their lies together.

I can't find it. Searching for "RODOH forum Lukaszkiewitz" on Bing and google doesn't work. Can you provide a link to the online translation you refer to?

It's Justice Lukaszkiewicz, not Lukaszkiewitz

Can you see the bits the MGK edited out and did not mention?

Can you explain why Eric Hunt denies this investigation took place in his propaganda video?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.au/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Here is a 5 minute Youtube video on the excavation of the old gas chamber at Treblinka. ( I don't understand why the floor tiles were placed upside down.)

 

[EtienneSC]

It's Justice Lukaszkiewicz, not Lukaszkiewitz

Can you see the bits the MGK edited out and did not mention?

Can you explain why Eric Hunt denies this investigation took place in his propaganda video?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.au/2006/07/polish-investigations-of-treblinka.html

Spelling noted. This link is not to a complete translation. You implied previously that at least one of Lukaszkiewicz's two reports was translated online. Are you now saying this is not the case? Obviously without a complete translation, it is impossible to establish whether Mattogno's critics are cherrypicking.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Obviously without a complete translation, it is impossible to establish whether Mattogno's critics are cherrypicking.

No. The entire sentences appear in Lukaszkiewicz report on the shortened version I linked for you, that were totally edited out by MGK in the post you offered from them. Yes or No?

"During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time."

I linked you to this version so you could read the criticisms of MGK's edits by Roberto Muehlenkamp. Did you read them?

My next question is about Eric's propaganda film. Have you actually watched it from start to finish?

Captain Howdy? Mondail? Have either of you actually watched Eric's propaganda film? ( Mondail said we must watch it, so I did. )

The reason I ask this is because not one holocaust denier on the Skeptic Society forum has ever watched it.