General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Nick Terry]

Matthew has responded to the whole video, generally outlining the arguments which we are all familiar with. Incidentally, Andy Mathis also makes some pertinent points in the commentary section in the youtube page. I'd like to focus on what is new (to me at least), namely the mutually corroborating witness testimony of transits through Treblinka.

Perhaps (see my own reply, above), though apparently it is not so much cherrypicking the testimony as selecting from a small initial sample as it takes time to listen to it all. One witness can produce hours of testimony and there are 10,000s of witnesses, whereas an eight hour day 5 days a week would only amount to about 2,000 man-hours. The transits mentioned are from East to West (Minsk to Treblinka), then back South East to Lublin/Maijdanek, or apparently to Budzyn, which is further West again (north of Posen, according to google maps).

The fact of transits through Treblinka and Sobibor has been known since the 1940s. It has also been discussed in a fair number of relevant historical works and court cases. E.g selections from Warsaw ghetto transports at Treblinka for Majdanek in spring 1943 were already mentioned in Poliakov and Reitlinger in 1951 and 1953 respectively. Transports arriving at Sobibor were selected for Trawniki and Dorohucza in 1943. The Bialystok ghetto liquidation action in August 1943 was known to have been selected and partially transited to Majdanek and labour camps in the Lublin district. Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka stationmaster, said so in 1945. The same thing happened to the transports from Minsk in the Ostland in September 1943 - sent to Sobibor and Treblinka in both cases selected.

The pattern is fairly clear: selections became more extensive in 1943. This has been discussed in numerous published memoirs, in West German court judgements as well as in recent historiography on the various ghettos and camps, e.g. Barbara Schwindt's work on Majdanek, plus encyclopedia entries for sub-camps like Budzyn.

There were also selections in 1942, but they were more 'local'. At Treblinka these were for the Treblinka I labour camp (a small number of transports were so treated), and at Sobibor these were either done on arrival at Lublin for Majdanek sending the transport on to Sobibor, or they were done at Sobibor in order to dispatch workers to forced labour camps in the immediate vicinity of Sobibor. The 1943 selections were 'regional', within the Government-General. Only if the selectees ended up in an armaments-producing forced labour camp were they able to survive, however, because 42,000 other Jewish forced labourers were murdered in 'Erntefest' at the start of November 1943.

It's simply a strawman argument to claim that transits or selections at these camps in any way upset the existing understanding of these camps, when relevant specialist literature has discussed them. I myself not only discussed these selections in the HC white paper but also discussed them at a conference paper last summer.

Historiography needs to adapt to enable use of the video testimony of the USC Shoah Foundation. There are accepted ways of citing video material in scholarly articles, but it obviously better to choose a medium that shows the evidence cited so the viewer can evaluate the content, body language, etc directly.

No, historiography must remain in textual form just like every other academic discipline. It is perfectly fine to make historical documentaries, which is what the Hunt-Berg nonsense purports to be, but documentaries are even more vulnerable to cherrypicking, misrepresentation and distortion than conventional scholarship. They are a different medium, one that can certainly convey information that might not be as visible in a conventional academic text, but the same argument can be made for photo documentaries, poetry or historical fiction - all can reveal things about the past that conventional history writing might not be able to.

Heck, even the pseudoarchaeologist Graham Hancock manages to write books while also producing TV documentaries, so there really is no exception clause or excuse for the material not being summarised in conventional textual form as well. Nor is there any obligation for professional historians to 'accept' arguments submitted in video form, any more than there is for engineers, doctors, sociologists or psychologists.

Holocaust historiography has had little problem making use of video testimonies; they have been extensively used in the USHMM camps and ghettos encyclopedia, and in many other works since the 1990s (eg Simone Gigliotti, The Train Journey, to name one off the top of my head). There is also a large body of academic work analysing video testimonies not just of Holocaust survivors but also other similar testimony-gathering efforts.

The same events are also recorded in many collections of written testimonies from the 1940s onwards - Central Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, Wiener Library, West German war crimes cases, the Demjanjuk pretrial investigation. There is a particularly large number of such testimonies in th trial of Ludwig Hahn, KdS Warschau. Unsurprisingly many testimonies were given by the same people to different collections/investigations. There are also published memoirs, eg David Mittelberg, Between Two Streams, a Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek-Budzyn "transitee".

Ad hominem. Eric Hunt is a young(ish) man at odds with his society who seems to be maturing in a fairly normal way. Both authors have held down professional jobs (language teacher, engineer).

It would only be ad hominem if I had used their confessed (Hunt) and easily visible (Berg) mental disorders to dismiss their arguments, but I'd already dismissed the format of the 'argument' and noted that the commentaries on the documentary invalidated the major 'new' claim. It is far more damning to point out that neither Hunt nor Berg are trained historians and therefore have made a dog's dinner of assessing historical source material, to the point where casually-interested viewers with some knowledge of the subject come away distinctly unimpressed, and to the point where even revisionists (like ralphgordon at RODOH) think of the video as poorly constructed propaganda with a one-sided argument.

That they are both mentally unstable is simply a fact - Eric Hunt went into hysterics on another forum when the video was challenged, and Berg has been going into hysterics for years on CODOH and RODOH, including mounting personal attacks against your hero, Robert Faurisson.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Regarding Treblinka II /Mass burial pits

Are you saying that Hunt is demanding evidence of burial pits, but not full of bodies?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Please explain why you and Eric Hunt are not satisfied.

In 1945, Justice Lukaszkiewicz lead an archaeological investigation, excavated mass burial pits in Treblinka and "its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains" and "Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition"

In 2013 & 2015, The Staffordshire University archaeological investigation, lead by Dr Colls measured known burial pits and indeed found new mass burial pits. "Non-invasive geophysical survey has allowed the location of a number of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined in the extermination camp....."

In fact we can directly ask the German Commanding officer of Treblinka what he saw in 1943. " I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity-it couldn't have; it was a mass-a mass of rotting flesh"

So may I ask why you and Eric Hunt don't think there are mass burial pits at Treblinka II?


Wrong Forensic Investigation

Matthew Ellard claims that there are are 20,000 square meters of such ash at Treblinka. However, there was no reference to this in the recent UK Channel 5 documentary on the Caroline Sturdy Colls forensic investigation.

Wrong forensic archaeologist. The 20,000 square metres of human was discovered by Justice Lukaszkiewicz way back in 1945.

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin

Here are two photos from a series that Justice Lukaszkiewicz had taken of the various piles of human ashes at Treblinka II

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Gas Chambers / Treblinka / Claim they were "Showers"
Firstly, I am still thinking this through and I'm open to input and corrections, but here goes.

The Staffordshire University investigation, lead by Dr Colls, is excavating the "Old Gas Chamber" at Treblinka. Indeed "many" floor and wall tiles are being recovered, that exactly match original eyewitness descriptions, are available on the internet for viewing. The "New Gas chamber" will be examined in later 2014. In other words, historians and archaeologists are now examining the actual gas chambers.

In Eric Hunt's propaganda video, Eric Hunt claims Jewish victims at Treblinka took real showers in these two gas chambers. I am guessing that holocaust denier will now simply claim these gas chambers were just showers. For this reason I would like to point out the following facts and then form an opinion.

Arrivals per Day
On average two trains arrived a day containing 4,000 to 7,000 victims per train. I am using 14,000 people in my calculation. When three trains arrived there could be 21,000 people per day arriving.

Water Supply at Treblinka
Treblinka II had one small well. The water was hard carted to and from the well. (quotes supplied on request). There was no pumping mechanism.

Maximum Capacity of New Gas Chamber
The Commanding Officer of Treblinka, SS Hauptsturmführer Stangl said that the old death chambers were capable of killing 3,000 people in three hours. The new ones had the highest "output" of all Reinhard death camps with the capacity of 22,000 deaths every day.

Water use for Shower
14,000 people (two trains a day) requires x 35 litres (1 minute "gravity" shower) =490,000 litre water tank minimum each day.

A shower requires water pressure.
A shower requires water pressure. A small town of 2,000 will have a 500,000 litre water tank set high on a gantry to supply both water and water pressure. A photo of such a water tank is below.

Therefore
As there was no water tower at Treblinka, there was no water pressure and therefore showers simply would not work. However a diesel engine that existed in the same gas chamber is easily connected to the plumbing of that building

As there was only one small well at Treblinka and we know "since there was a water shortage at Treblinka, and only the Germans and the guards were allowed to use it" that it is impossible to supply 490,000 litres of water to showers anyhow.

It is my argument that that the above information suggests that no jewish victims could possibly have a shower other than those handful of slave workers who could carry their own water and have a wash.

If Eric Hunt and his fellow holocaust denier wish to claim the gas chambers were showers, then they need to explain how 500,000 litres of water and water pressure to showers came from a small open well with no plumbing.

 

[000063]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. [...]

Which is why you and Hunt, by your claims, want evidence in the form of disturbed earth, not actual remains. Which is an odd thing, considering that we're speaking of burial pits.

Of course, if such evidence were provided, someone could hand-wave it away as saying the pits were used for something else, while ignoring the whole "human remains" thing. Much like the "showers" which couldn't've showered anyone.

 

[MaxMurx]

Wirth?

Has anybody ever considered the obviously "higher than random" number of appearances of the name "Wirth" in testimonies, trials and Holocaust reports? It appears in the Nuremberg trials, the Dachau trials, in Konrad Morgen's testimony and everywhere you read something about the subject. The name "Wirth" is not so common among German names. It is on the 11.231st place of frequency in the list of German names (4039 German families have that last name as compared with "Müller" (62.947), Schmidt (37.717) Becker (37.550) or Schneider (33.456)), yet it appears everywhere. Is this a "running gag" included in enforced testimonies to reveal its nature, is there one "Wirth" who was everywhere or why do those names being 11.230 times more likely to appear, do not appear with such a frequency?

(Just a question which is haunting me since long)

 

[MaxMurx]

Wirth?

http://de.geneanet.org/abstammung/1/Nachname.php

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Which is why you and Hunt, by your claims, want evidence in the form of disturbed earth, not actual remains. Which is an odd thing, considering that we're speaking of burial pits.

Eric Hunt is posting away on the Skeptic Society forum. He is defending his Treblinka propaganda film. There was a Jewish carpenter, Heinz Rosenberg, who has a recorded testimony. In his holocaust denial propaganda film, Eric Hunt has included a brief audio snippet of this man indicating he was at Treblinka and saw a steam room. So....... I sat down and transcribed the original testimony.

Here is the full original audio recording.
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn509193

Here is the snippet as it appears in the propaganda video concerning Treblinka. (12minute mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pf7RxPAwIs&feature=youtu.be&t=12m2s

Below is my transcription. You will note that Heinz Rosenberg worked at a steam room in the German soldier's barracks in Minsk as he is a forced labour carpenter. When he arrives at Treblinka, three weeks before it closed, the Germans ask for carpenters. He says "I knew about this I was in the steam room". He is referring to Minsk. He was only at Treblinka for less than day and only in the admin camp. ( I don't know what the "steam room" was at the German soldiers barracks, a sauna?, central heating? laundry tubs?

(Part 1)
("Minsk Ghetto")
at 44.00 "And then after about four weeks, about seven or eight transports arrived, from Germany, the last one came from Vienna, then it stopped. then we started to work. We were picked up in the morning by heavy guards. I worked in the german soldiers room. I had a very good job. I had plenty to eat. I was warm. I worked in the steam room you see, but I had plenty to eat more than the people in the ghetto. I was allowed every Sunday to visit my family. An SS guard took me, you see,

"Going to Treblinka"
at 68.00 "We were marched out of the ghetto, to a small camp, which used to ba a prison camp for the Russian prisoners. A small camp in the city (Minsk). I didn't know it existed. and there were four barracks, actually barracks for horses and there were already some people there, some jews, "We are from Smolensk". we got in and there was another SS commander and guards. "You will be here until your transport leaves". "Where are we going?" "I do not know. I cannot tell you. You will get food and if you behave properly nothing will happen to you". and one person, he made a question. 'What about our wives?" and he was shot "bang". You see.

at 70.00 "The people from Smolensk told us that the Smolensk ghetto had been closed. These were the last people they took out. I said "Come on this cannot be?" "Yes" they said. over two years. I realised this had happened to our people (Minsk) but after three days Mr (Rueber?) the SS commander, came and said I have very good news for you. You can each write a note to your loved ones and if you have wives they will be permitted to join you here. So I wrote and wrote to my wife on a small piece of paper I had, I dont want Erica to come because to me it looks very bad. i wrote in French or english as I didn't want ....we didn't think they (guards) would read it. Two days later I got a letter from my parents from home (Minsk Ghetto) Six days later about fifty women arrived all for the married men. also with a little knapsack. It cannot be so bad if they present the women here. ....at that went on until September 14th 1943. And very early on September 14th, the SS commander of this camp told us "get ready for transport". It was five in the morning. We packed our little bag as we were not allowed to take anything with us. he said "The men to the left, the women to the right" "first I bring the men to the railroad and then the women so you can prepare"
And again under very heavy guards we are taken to the railroads. It is the last time I saw Erica (his wife) The women never came. When we went to the train station, we passed the ghetto (Minsk). They must have heard or seen something, they are standing there saying hello. I can't remember. the ghetto was still alive on September 14 1943 with 2,500 people. if the russian Jews were still there I don't know. And we were taken to a cattle cart now, no heat, no stove nothing, no food, no water.

at 74.30 "I think we were on the transport for two or three days. I honestly can't remember it now. The doors were never opened. they gave us one little pail but you know 100 people in a car, it went over right away. And then we stopped. we could not look out. All night long they would move that car back and forth ..... then early in the morning the SS opened these cattle car doors and we were standing there with the German shepherds and they shouted "get out you dirty Jews, get out run run run" and we saw a gate and it said Treblinka and it said "Arbeit macht frie" the work will make you free. This was the 17th or 18 September 1943.

(at 75.50) And we came to this camp, we had to run. there was a terrible sweet smell. We did not know what Treblinka was. we had no idea. And we saw prisoners pulling enormous loads laden with shoes and clothes. And we were put separate on one spot . Of the 200, some had died. I can't remember how may made it. 240 probably. There were couples and there were Dutch Jews and they told us "Where you from?" "From Minsk" They said this is a "Command to heaven camp" "What are you talking about?"
"You will find out, do you have anything valuable? You won't need it anymore" They were 100% sure we would be gassed too. So after a while we were standing there for about three hours, we were not permitted to go to the toilet. After three hours a SS delegation came and said "Are there any carpenters here?" Yes there were three carpenters. "Any locksmiths here?" "Any plumbers here?" "Any electricians?" Yes. "Get out, get out, get out". "I knew about this because I was in the steam room" Everybody went as gardeners. We never saw the gardeners again. But we were put on the side to a barracks and we had to undress. We did not have prison uniforms but old clothes with a mark. so we undressed

(78.36) We then went into a room. we did not know what it was. We were given new clothes and wooden shoes. they then came in and said "you are going to be transferred to (Plaszow?) The Kapo said to us "You are the first group that came here and goes out of here alive" So we still did not know what Treblinka was. I had never heard of Treblinka before but we heard this man and he said "this is a death sector" We did not know what a death sector was.

So that evening they put us back on a cattle car" We arrived the next morning.

In essence, Eric Hunt has fabricated evidence. He has simply edited footage from Spielberg's documentary to create the narrative he wants.

 

[Muc]

Has anybody ever considered the obviously "higher than random" number of appearances of the name "Wirth" in testimonies, trials and Holocaust reports?

Are you serious? This could be because a certain German named "Wirth" is one of the most infamous figures of both the Nazi "euthanasia" program and the Holocaust, while another "Wirth" from the Netherlands was a prominent Nazi pseudo-scientist. How many different Wirths did you actually find during your research? There should be many more than those two if you want to read any significance into this. And how did you compare this to how often "more common" names pop up?

 

[EtienneSC]

It is neither mutual nor corroborating because it is edited footage. Do you acknowledge that holocaust deniers Hunt & Berg have edited the footage they stole and that the eyewitnesses narrations are not the original full statements made by the eyewitnesses in Shoa? Yes/ No?

Yes, it is certainly edited footage. However, I assume they are broadly accurate in their description. If it is not so, we can rely on critics such as yourself to point it out. The authors have assisted in this by providing the source and reference to the names of the witnesses. This speaks in their favor to my mind.

We have the measured empty mass graves at Treblinka and have placed human body parts and ash in those same empty graves since 1945. Didn't you know this? Yes/ No?

'its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition Justice Lukaszkiewicz

Then why does Caroline Sturdy Colls seem not to know this? Certainly I did not know it, though I believe that there are human remains at Treblinka II. Lukaszkiewitz wrote two works, neither of which, as far as I can tell, have been translated into English. Thus I am not sure what you are citing here. However, both Lucaszkiewitz studies are discussed in Mattogno's Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp (2004). In the first of his books Lukaszkiewicz states:

The basis of the evidentiary material, upon which the preliminary investigations rest as represented in the following, is above all the witness statements of thirteen Jews, former prisoners...

These include such discredited or controversial figures as Samuel Rajman and the famous Yenkiel Wiernik whom we have already discussed. Mattogno mentions forensic studies as supplementary evidence, but states:

the declarations of the thirteen Jewish witnesses are the sole basis of proof for the claimed mass extermination. (25-26)

The second work is described as more sober in style and as the basis of the contemporary story.

Lukaszkiewicz was on site for seven days and received forensic confirmation back that the ash was human. Lukaszkiewicz excavated mass graves. Time Team do a full scale excavation in three days. You are simply hand waiving Lukaszkiewicz because you are a holocaust denier.


You really are unaware of this aren't you?

I am not able to evaluate it as the information you cite is in Polish and its interpretation has been disputed by Mattogno in two books. Mattogno describes even Lukaszkiewicz' second work as bearing the "quite unmistakeable stamp of propaganda" (26). Perhaps that is why it has not been translated.

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...urvey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/

"Non-invasive geophysical survey has allowed the location of a number of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined in the extermination camp....."

Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations.

The last I heard, Colls' main doctoral work was withheld from publication or even consultation until 2016/17. In the meantime, she has continued on site investigations. However, her method as presented via the media has been to accept the basics of the story elaborated by Lucaszkiewicz on the basis of eye-witness testimony and interpret the fragments of evidence she has found in light of it. This approach is apparent in the radio programme and documentary she has been involved with. This has permitted her to continue to gather evidence, which is all to the good in the long run. The logical leaps she makes from ambiguous evidence are evident from her description in the link of the tiles she has found as "Tiles from the old gas chamber". I don't believe this is the same approach as a real forensic investigation (except perhaps that of the Birmingham Six). A reliable investigation would have to proceed with greater caution.

Incidentally, there a picture of her a little after 2 minutes into the Hunt film, so he is clearly aware of her.

Let's look at some of her statements. She writes:

Non-invasive geophysical survey has allowed the location of a number of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined in the extermination camp. These areas were then avoided during more invasive work so as to comply with Jewish Halacha Law. These graves will hopefully be marked in the future.

The first sentence has an inconsistent mixture of past tense ("has allowed") and future tense ("to be determined"). It then says "These areas were then avoided", i.e. the central point is "avoided". This obfuscation and evasion of the key questions is apparently acceptable in Holocaust Studies. The facts are outlined by Thomas Kues here. She is clearly aware of the work of revisionists (see the conference in the Channel 5 documentary), but prejudges the issue by calling them "deniers".

You also quote her selectively:

Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations. These remains were scattered remains, not buried in mass graves.

I believe that there are human ashes at Treblinka going back to WW2, though see here. The question is how many and how they got there. Colls does not state that they are evidence of mass graves though. As far as I know, she has not yet found anything decisive.

 

[A'isha]

Eric Hunt is posting away on the Skeptic Society forum.

Wow, that thread is filled with epic stupidity. My favorite is the denier who wondered how the Nazis could have buried all the bodies of their murder victims at Teblinka because the site is so heavily forested today.

Has anybody ever considered the obviously "higher than random" number of appearances of the name "Wirth" in testimonies, trials and Holocaust reports? It appears in the Nuremberg trials, the Dachau trials, in Konrad Morgen's testimony and everywhere you read something about the subject. The name "Wirth" is not so common among German names. It is on the 11.231st place of frequency in the list of German names (4039 German families have that last name as compared with "Müller" (62.947), Schmidt (37.717) Becker (37.550) or Schneider (33.456)), yet it appears everywhere. Is this a "running gag" included in enforced testimonies to reveal its nature, is there one "Wirth" who was everywhere or why do those names being 11.230 times more likely to appear, do not appear with such a frequency?

(Just a question which is haunting me since long)

Christian Wirth

 

[MaGZ]

How can this be a serious question? When has a loser ever not been mocked by the victor? When has a political view, especially a losing political view, ever not been lampooned?

The defeat of the Confederate States of America.

 

[A'isha]

Mattogno describes even Lukaszkiewicz' second work as bearing the "quite unmistakeable stamp of propaganda" (26).

And we should take Mattogno's opinion seriously because why, exactly?

The first sentence has an inconsistent mixture of past tense ("has allowed") and future tense ("to be determined").

Um...that's not future tense. She's not saying that the survey will allow the location of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined, but that it did allow the location of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined. That is, the survey let them determine the location of those mass graves and cremation pits.

She is clearly aware of the work of revisionists (see the conference in the Channel 5 documentary), but prejudges the issue by calling them "deniers".

They are deniers, so she's merely labeling them correctly.

The defeat of the Confederate States of America.

(From here)

 

[Border Reiver]

The defeat of the Confederate States of America.

Bugs Bunny was used to lampoon CSA beliefs in several shorts with Yosemite Sam playing the Confederate.

 

[Hans]

The defeat of the Confederate States of America.

You need to take a look at the northern newspapers from 1865 to 1880's. While E Lee was honored Jeff Davis was mocked and ridiculed. In example in 1870 when the first Black American entered congress newspapers mocked Davis as Iago.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The propaganda video

Do you acknowledge that holocaust deniers Hunt & Berg have edited the footage they stole and that the eyewitnesses narrations are not the original full statements made by the eyewitnesses in Shoa? Yes/ No?

Yes, it is certainly edited footage. However, I assume they are broadly accurate in their description.

The first example, Heinz Rosenberg proved to be referring to Minsk. Eric Hunt edited Rosenberg's testimony to suggest Treblinka. ( See the analysis above). Eric Hunt has now refused to supply transcripts to slow down further comparisons with original testimonies.



No Mass Graves at Treblinka? What?

We have the measured empty mass graves at Treblinka and have placed human body parts and ash in those same empty graves since 1945. Didn't you know this? Yes/ No?

'its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition / Justice Lukaszkiewicz

Then why does Caroline Sturdy Colls seem not to know this? Certainly I did not know it.

Caroline Colls not only knows what is in Lukaszkiewicz report but quotes from it and used the same eyewitness testimonies to define search areas as Lukaszkiewicz

Sturdy Colls, C. 2013. 'Ocena archeologiczna terenu bylego Obozu Zaglady w Treblince/Archaeological Survey of the Former Extermination Camp at Treblinka'', Co wiemy o Treblince? Stan Badan. Warsaw (in Polish and English).

I am not able to evaluate it as the information you cite is in Polish.

Read a translation on RODOH for the 1945 report where we have both been quoting from in English. The Staffordshire University preliminary report is in English.

The last I heard, Colls' main doctoral work was withheld from publication or even consultation until 2016/17.

She's already Dr Colls. The Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp) was issued in November last year. Did you read the bottom of the report?

"The full results of the research will be published in various journal articles over the coming year and in Sturdy Colls, C. (In Prep.) Finding Treblinka. Archaeological Investigations at Treblinka Extermination and Labour Camps [In English and Polish] in 2014."

Incidentally, there a picture of her a little after 2 minutes into the Hunt film, so he is clearly aware of her.

Eric Hunt simply did not mention her evidence of finding mass graves because Hunt denies mass graves exist. Didn't you notice? Even more fun, Eric is now backing away from his claim the gas chambers were showers and now claims they are air-raid shelters.

"Of course it's still wrong as both were the same thing - real showers. The shower / undressing / and dressing rooms WAS the alleged gas chamber complex."

Brick buildings like this, rather than the wood ones, which are sitting ducks for aerial attack, served a dual purpose against air raids and gas ATTACKS. And all of these measures such as "valves" described were falsely identified as having a sinister murderous purpose rather than the potentially life saving one. Unlike in WW1, gas attacks weren't used.

Answer the question
So here we are again. We have the mass graves found by Lukaszkiewicz and the further mass graves found by Colls. Are you still claiming there are no empty mass graves at Treblinka? Yes?/ No?

 

[EtienneSC]

No Mass Graves at Treblinka? What?

Read a translation on RODOH for the 1945 report where we have both been quoting from in English. The Staffordshire University preliminary report is in English.

Thanks for this reference.

Answer the question
So here we are again. We have the mass graves found by Lukaszkiewicz and the further mass graves found by Colls. Are you still claiming there are no empty mass graves at Treblinka? Yes?/ No?

I see no persuasive evidence from the two sources you provide, except for the grave identified by Colls subsequent to her doctoral research outside Treblinka II. I believe on other grounds that there are some graves in or near Treblinka II, but none of sufficient size to contain, or to have contained 700,000 to 875,000 bodies. This point has been made in the essay by Thomas Kues which I linked to above.

Generally, you seem oblivious to the massive discrepancy between what is claimed and the sparse, dubious or ambiguous evidence.

On another point, I misread a sentence from Colls above as regards tense structure, but my other points stand.

 

[EtienneSC]

And we should take Mattogno's opinion seriously because why, exactly?

He has researched the subject over several decades and published several books at what must be considerable personal sacrifice both financially and socially.

Um...that's not future tense. She's not saying that the survey will allow the location of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined, but that it did allow the location of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined. That is, the survey let them determine the location of those mass graves and cremation pits.

Yes, my balls up on the tenses, I misread that sentence. However, nothing she has done confirms her description of the pits as "mass graves", as argued by Thomas Kues here and criticised here.

They are deniers, so she's merely labeling them correctly.

My point is that as a result she appears not to have an open mind in evaluating their opinions. You consider "denier" as a "correct label" presumably because you accept some version of the theory that they are "in denial" to explain away their apparent views. The same strategy of vilification is used in phrases such as "climate change denier", etc.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I see no persuasive evidence from the two sources you provide,

You said you never read Lukaszkiewicz's report because it was in Polish, one day ago. Now you are saying there is nothing in both reports. It is pretty obvious you are lying.

except for the grave identified by Colls

She identifies six mass graves.

Generally, you seem oblivious to the massive discrepancy between what is claimed and the sparse, dubious or ambiguous evidence.

You haven't read either Colls or Lukaszkiewicz. You don't know the number of mass graves discovered at all. What is particularly amusing is that all the things you say Colls didn't say are all linked and quoted on the CODOH forum. For example Colls discussing the 1945 Investigation by Lukaszkiewicz. Did you forget?

 

[A'isha]

He has researched the subject over several decades and published several books at what must be considerable personal sacrifice both financially and socially.

He's a crank and a liar, as Dr. Terry and his colleagues have amply shown.

However, nothing she has done confirms her description of the pits as "mass graves", as argued by Thomas Kues here and criticised here.

Since you yourself link right to the refutation of Kues' argument, why do you expect anyone to accept it?

My point is that as a result she appears not to have an open mind in evaluating their opinions. You consider "denier" as a "correct label" presumably because you accept some version of the theory that they are "in denial" to explain away their apparent views.

I consider "denier" to be a correct label because people like Mattogno and Kues deny the plain historical fact that the Holocaust happened, and use lies and distortions to try and support their false claim that the Holocaust didn't happen. They're deniers, just as Dr. Colls said.

The same strategy of vilification is used in phrases such as "climate change denier", etc.

It's hardly "vilification" when the people so labeled as deniers actually are deniers. lobal warming deniers deny that global warming is happening, and Holocaust deniers deny that the Holocaust happened.

Simple as that.

 

[EtienneSC]

You said you never read Lukaszkiewicz's report because it was in Polish, one day ago. Now you are saying there is nothing in both reports. It is pretty obvious you are lying.

You are paraphrasing me inaccurately in your second sentence. It's pretty obvious I'm stating a current opinion based on limited evidence.

She identifies six mass graves.

I was referring to the single grave that she confirmed to be such by partially excavating it, which as I said was the one well outside Treblinka II. As for the pits inside Treblinka II. it depends what you mean by "identify". She says they are there on the basis of ground penetrating radar data and perhaps other sources of information, but has not excavated them in order to comply with religious custom.

As for your other points, I will take that on board and try to read Lukaszkiewicz to the extent that he has been translated and Colls' thesis when and if it is published.