Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[jimbob]

It matters because jimbob and others made a big deal out of it based on pre$$titude stories mocking the ballot while omitting important information. You can go upthread and see me writing that more information is needed for me to join in the condemning choir. Here it is, and it's perfectly clear.

In case you think today saw frightened crimeans forced at gunpoint by terrifying hordes of Russian soldiers to make their vote, you couldn't be further from the truth and are a clear victim of propaganda. Maybe you wanna take a look at the videos @BritinUkraine has been and is making today.

What, like quoting from Russia Today?

Your second paragraph is a non-sequiter. If the ballot was to be free, why not print three options?

Anyway,

Those who cast the votes, they decide nothing. Those who count the votes, they decide everything.

There was not the time to implement the safeguards needed in such a tense situation.

 

[Darth Rotor]

After this is all said and done, Russia will be fresh out of friends, and the "anti-imperialists" will never be taken seriously again.

Those are my predictions. Feel free to quote me.

Are any of them taken seriously now?

I can't speak for other people, but I have a deep belief that the west needs to be kept in check. Left to roam freely, danger and havoc will surely ensue. Don't believe me, ask the Iraqis.

Since the summer of 2003, August, and the car bombing of the UN office in Baghdad, the great majority of Iraqis who have died by violence have died at the hands of other Iraqis. That the US and its coalition was unable to put the genii back in the bottle, the bottle broken by invading to take out Saddam, is a testament to the West Not Being a single monolithic and ultra powerful entity. (And some crap planning ... separate topic)

When you refer to "the West" you refer to an archaic abstraction. The world has moved on, L.Y.S., and you need to catch up. Getting out of the cartoon "anti imperialism" motif would be of help.

 

[NoahFence]

The EuromaidanPR youtube channel brings us some horrific scenes from the "Illegal Referendum" in Kerch, Crimea:


Seems like they need a PR adviser.

You're joking, right?

 

[NoahFence]

It matters because jimbob and others made a big deal out of it based on pre$$titude stories mocking the ballot while omitting important information. You can go upthread and see me writing that more information is needed for me to join in the condemning choir. Here it is, and it's perfectly clear.

In case you think today saw frightened crimeans forced at gunpoint by terrifying hordes of Russian soldiers to make their vote, you couldn't be further from the truth and are a clear victim of propaganda. Maybe you wanna take a look at the videos @BritinUkraine has been and is making today.

"Don't believe the propaganda you're seeing - here, I'll prove it by showing you propaganda from the other side"

cute.

 

[L.Y.S.]

When you refer to "the West" you refer to an archaic abstraction. The world has moved on, L.Y.S., and you need to catch up. Getting out of the cartoon "anti imperialism" motif would be of help.

The world hasn't moved on. Only in your imagination. The goal of the vast majority of the world is not to be equal to the west, but eventually to become superior to the west. That the west managed as a series of separate entities to bring near universal and uniform damage to the vast majority of the world's people will never be forgotten. The "cartoon" anti-imperialism you speak of is a genuine distrust for all powerful western governments who have proven themselves hypocritical and abusive in the past.

The west, whatever it maybe, must be kept in check. Western nations, or all nations for that matter, cannot be allowed to gain too much power.

 

[L.Y.S.]

delete

 

[uke2se]

The world hasn't moved on. Only in your imagination. The goal of the vast majority of the world is not to be equal to the west, but eventually to become superior to the west. That the west managed as a series of separate entities to bring near universal and uniform damage to the vast majority of the world's people will never be forgotten. The "cartoon" anti-imperialism you speak of is a genuine distrust for all powerful western governments who have proven themselves hypocritical and abusive in the past.

The west, whatever it maybe, must be kept in check. Western nations, or all nations for that matter, cannot be allowed to gain too much power.

But you don't think Russia needs to be kept in check? Is it their history of never bothering anyone that gave you that notion?

 

[jimbob]

Anyway,

Those who cast the votes, they decide nothing. Those who count the votes, they decide everything.

There was not the time to implement the safeguards needed in such a tense situation.

http://rt.com/news/crimea-vote-join-russia-210/

With around 50 percent of the votes already counted, preliminary result show that 95.5 percent of voters said 'yes' to the reunion of the republic with Russia as a constituent unit of the Russian Federation. In Sevastopol, the number of those who voted ‘yes’ stands at 93 percent, according to the head of the Sevastopol commission, Valery Medvedev.

Couldn't they at least tried for a remotely plausible majority?

 

[uke2se]

http://rt.com/news/crimea-vote-join-russia-210/



Couldn't they at least tried for a remotely plausible majority?

In the world of dictators, around 95% is "plausible". Some overdo it, like the 100% of Kim Jong Un.

I'm sure one of Putin's white knights will be along shortly to tell us how 95% is entirely plausible. Or possibly tell us how many Nazis there are among the non-voters.

 

[Giz]

That the west managed as a series of separate entities to bring near universal and uniform damage to the vast majority of the world's people will never be forgotten.

Ah yes, the world before the rise of 'The West' was a paradise indeed. No issues with slavery or tyrants or due process or conquests. Why did The West have to ruin things!?

 

[LSSBB]

The world hasn't moved on. Only in your imagination. The goal of the vast majority of the world is not to be equal to the west, but eventually to become superior to the west. That the west managed as a series of separate entities to bring near universal and uniform damage to the vast majority of the world's people will never be forgotten. The "cartoon" anti-imperialism you speak of is a genuine distrust for all powerful western governments who have proven themselves hypocritical and abusive in the past.

The west, whatever it maybe, must be kept in check. Western nations, or all nations for that matter, cannot be allowed to gain too much power.

Yes, otherwise we might have situations like Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, North Korea, Stalinism, the Rwanda genocide, the massacre of Armenians, Japanese Imperialism, why the list is endless.

And what exactly do you mean by "All nations" and "too much power"?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Couldn't they at least tried for a remotely plausible majority?

This is a plausible majority. One last time trying to break it to you: The overall turnout is counted at 81,37% at the moment. The rest is the "keep it as it is" vote. 95% of the 81,37% are for joining Russia, 5 % are for greater autonomy under the 90s constitution.

Keep it as it is: 1-0.8137 = 18,63%
More Autonomy: 0.05*0.8137 = 4,0%
Join Russia: 0.95*0.8137 = 77,3%

About as expected.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Some interesting developments in the background, btw. This vote doesn't mean they will join Russia tomorrow.

Comments include a link to this hilarious series of images showing Kerry and Lavrov in London on Friday.

 

[crescent]

....the west managed as a series of separate entities to bring near universal and uniform damage to the vast majority of the world's people will never be forgotten.

I spent some time in the third world, and the attitude you portray is genuine. But here is the thing - in that context, Russia was part of "the west".

The West colonized far off places, and wreaked havoc on those populations that resisted - but so did Russia (like the Rusian treatment Tartars, for example). The West financed civil wars, without regard to the human rights record of the groups is was financing - but so did Russia. The west sold or gave military hardware to dictators who used them to slaughter their own people - but so did Russia.

Every sort of terrible thing that the U.S. and western Europe did was also done by Russia or the USSR.

The difference it that the western government gradually came under increasing public pressure to stop that sort of thing - witness the protests against Vietnam and Iraq, the congressional ban on weapons sales to the Nicaraguan contras, the never ending debate of the correct thing to do with Israel and Palestine. These things have consequences - Lyndon Johnson's decision not to run for re-election, the Iran/Contra hearings. There was widespread dislike of our government's actions in Libya, which has in turn lead to relative inaction in Syria.

When you imply that Russia is great savior, protecting the world from the west, you ignore the fact the Russian history is intertwined with the west, and Russia is guilty of the same sins as the west. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

What we in the west want is for Russia to face the consequences of its actions, the same standard we hold to ourselves.

 

[L.Y.S.]

But you don't think Russia needs to be kept in check? Is it their history of never bothering anyone that gave you that notion?

Russia has already been put in check by diminishing their influence to the 12 non-Baltic FSU republics.

Ah yes, the world before the rise of 'The West' was a paradise indeed. No issues with slavery or tyrants or due process or conquests. Why did The West have to ruin things!?

No, but the west certainly has made things worse. Rarely has western intervention made anything better. There are a few exceptions, but more often than not western intervention turns things into ****.

 

[uke2se]

Russia has already been put in check by diminishing their influence to the 12 non-Baltic FSU republics.

Are you serious?

 

[Newtons Bit]

In the world of dictators, around 95% is "plausible". Some overdo it, like the 100% of Kim Jong Un.

I'm sure one of Putin's white knights will be along shortly to tell us how 95% is entirely plausible. Or possibly tell us how many Nazis there are among the non-voters.

So 5% of people voting checked both boxes or no boxes?

 

[L.Y.S.]

I spent some time in the third world, and the attitude you portray is genuine. But here is the thing - in that context, Russia was part of "the west".

The West colonized far off places, and wreaked havoc on those populations that resisted - but so did Russia (like the Rusian treatment Tartars, for example). The West financed civil wars, without regard to the human rights record of the groups is was financing - but so did Russia. The west sold or gave military hardware to dictators who used them to slaughter their own people - but so did Russia.

Every sort of terrible thing that the U.S. and western Europe did was also done by Russia or the USSR.

The difference it that the western government gradually came under increasing public pressure to stop that sort of thing - witness the protests against Vietnam and Iraq, the congressional ban on weapons sales to the Nicaraguan contras, the never ending debate of the correct thing to do with Israel and Palestine. These things have consequences - Lyndon Johnson's decision not to run for re-election, the Iran/Contra hearings. There was widespread dislike of our government's actions in Libya, which has in turn lead to relative inaction in Syria.

When you imply that Russia is great savior, protecting the world from the west, you ignore the fact the Russian history is intertwined with the west, and Russia is guilty of the same sins as the west. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

What we in the west want is for Russia to face the consequences of its actions, the same standard we hold to ourselves.

Of course Russia isn't a great savior, but right now developing nations do not have nearly enough military and economic might to protect themselves. The most advisable thing is for all developing nations to develop some level of economic and military might that make major nations apprehensive about attacking them. However, for now, the best thing that can happen is for Russia to maintain some level of power to keep the west in check, and to moderate Chinese growth. The Chinese themselves are becoming increasingly powerful and bothersome.

 

[uke2se]

Of course Russia isn't a great savior, but right now developing nations do not have nearly enough military and economic might to protect themselves. The most advisable thing is for all developing nations to develop some level of economic and military might that make major nations apprehensive about attacking them. However, for now, the best thing that can happen is for Russia to maintain some level of power to keep the west in check, and to moderate Chinese growth. The Chinese themselves are becoming increasingly powerful and bothersome.

And you don't think Russia's power to invade neighbors needs to be kept in check? I mean, you not liking the West (for whatever reason) is all well and good, but when you start defending dictatorships like Russia you go way overboard.

 

[NoahFence]

This is a plausible majority. One last time trying to break it to you: The overall turnout is counted at 81,37% at the moment. The rest is the "keep it as it is" vote. 95% of the 81,37% are for joining Russia, 5 % are for greater autonomy under the 90s constitution.

Keep it as it is: 1-0.8137 = 18,63%
More Autonomy: 0.05*0.8137 = 4,0%
Join Russia: 0.95*0.8137 = 77,3%

About as expected.

"Tanks" for voting!