Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

[catsmate]

Your collection did not provide any data at all

Indeed. Such a collection of poorly reasoned, biased nonsense as is usually trotted out when this subject is raised.

 

[Mudcat]

God says so.

Other than that, no.

I don't believe in any god, never mind God, I still object to the legalization of prostitution.

 

[banquetbear]

I don't put prostitution in the same category as murder, but I do put it in the same category as chattel slavery. Shall we remove the ban on that, as well?

...why would you put them in the same category? That doesn't make any sense at all. Is there some sort of groundswell of support from former chattel slaved that want the ban on that repealed? Because there was a groundswell of support for the Prostitution Law Reform from the sex workers.

I don't believe in any god, never mind God, I still object to the legalization of prostitution.

Because of some nonsensical equivalence with chattel slavery?

 

[The Don]

How about if people are so desperate for money that they take a job cleaning the bathrooms at McDonald's? They would be "forced" into taking that type of job out of "economic necessity." If that is so, does that mean that you would have a problem with cleaning bathrooms at McDonald's as a living?

Jeez, doesn't pretty much everyone take a job out of "economic necessity"? And we take jobs that we can do and make money from them. Why is "flipping burgers" ok but "having sex" is not?

Because there are demonstrable physical and mental health dangers associated with having sex with strangers for money. Some people can view having sex as simply a transaction but others have a greater emotional investment. Whether it's cause or effect but mental health issues, alcohol and drug dependency issues and physical health issues are much, much worse for sex workers than for the population at large.

Personally as a married man who is faithful to his wife I could not take paid sex work (assuming that there is a niche out there I would fit into) without having terrible issues of guilt.

Surely that applies to absolutely any job, not just prostitution?

I'm not sure that there is an equivalence between sex work and other jobs. A lot of this is due to the stigma of sex work but disclosing that you are a past or current sex worker will reduce your future work opportunities far more than, say, revealing that you are currently or have in the past cleansed the toilets in a fast food restaurant and being a past or current sex worker will also reduce the pool of future life partners.

As I said in my first post in this thread, if someone goes into sex work, eyes open and aware of the consequences then I wholeheartedly agree that they should be allowed to do so.

 

[BenBurch]

I don't put prostitution in the same category as murder, but I do put it in the same category as chattel slavery. Shall we remove the ban on that, as well?

My friends will be happy to learn that they are slaves.

 

[Mudcat]

...why would you put them in the same category? That doesn't make any sense at all.

There is an established link between the two. I'll get more into that after I get off of work, though.

Because of some nonsensical equivalence with chattel slavery?

How about an interest in public safety and health? These are still good things, last I checked, and prostitution puts that at risk.

In a manner of speaking we already have legalized prostitution in the form of pornography (which I'm also against) and there is already an issue of health of safety, especially for the actors(?). And we're talking about a line of work that exposes these people to paid sex with a limited amount of people that they know and work with.

The problem is much worse because you're talking about prostitution, exposure to paid sex with complete strangers... Is the John infected with AIDS? Are they sane? Are they criminal? And on, and on, and on.

What about laws that prostitution conflicts with, such as employment laws? What's to prevent employers from adding clauses in their employment contracts that require employees be willing to submit to sexual advances?

What about civil rights, which legalized prostitution is notorious for trampling on?

Anyone who thinks that this is only about some religious/moral outrage are wrong, anyone who thinks prostitution is a victimless crime are even wronger.

 

[BenBurch]

How does legal prostitution trample on civil rights? I find that to be the howler of this discussion.

My right to control my body, to consent to sex or not consent to sex for any reason including being paid for it is an absolute human right. Just like one has the right to an abortion no matter how many sanctimonious fools try to claim otherwise, one has a right to choose to have sex for any reason.

 

[Mudcat]

Your rights end where public safety and health begins.

 

[Belz...]

How about an interest in public safety and health? These are still good things, last I checked, and prostitution puts that at risk.

So does alcohol, though.

In a manner of speaking we already have legalized prostitution in the form of pornography (which I'm also against)

1) Pornography is not prostitution in any way.
2) Why are you against pornography ?

And we're talking about a line of work that exposes these people to paid sex with a limited amount of people that they know and work with.

And ?

What about laws that prostitution conflicts with, such as employment laws? What's to prevent employers from adding clauses in their employment contracts that require employees be willing to submit to sexual advances?

I don't see a problem. It's not with the employer that they'll be having sex.

What about civil rights, which legalized prostitution is notorious for trampling on?

How so ?

Anyone who thinks that this is only about some religious/moral outrage are wrong, anyone who thinks prostitution is a victimless crime are even wronger.

Who are the victims ?

 

[Kopji]

I was asked for more recent examples of issues and I gave them.

I AM curious about the glaring lack of real data 10 years on. How about some of YOU give us some data that does not read like a travel brochure for Sex Tourism?

I can tell from reading the NZ material that claims to authority are commonly accepted as sources of knowledge. I am not so accepting of claims to authority.

I persist in the 'property' thing because it is a glaring inconsistency and also a source of trouble with the NZ law.

If nobody cares - I guess you are right then, have a nice day.

Curious, do your views also apply to illegal drugs? Why are there any? It would be consistent to legalize everything.

 

[BenBurch]

Your rights end where public safety and health begins.

Bingo Sierra.

There are zero public health concerns in the Nevada brothels. Not one documented case of an STD being passed under the current framework, or that was the case a couple years ago when I last checked. I would open that model up a bit more, make it less of a "company store" sort of operation, but the basics are there. Mandatory condoms, health inspections, secure working conditions.

Plus it looks like a preventative HIV vaccine is coming much sooner than I hoped.

 

[Mudcat]

So does alcohol, though.

I'm also for stricter alcohol laws, so your attempt to make my post look like a special pleading fallacy is rendered invalid.

1) Pornography is not prostitution in any way.

It's prostitution by proxy because someone is paying another person to have sex with another person, which they also pay.

2) Why are you against pornography?

For a lot of the same reasons that I'm against prostitution, plus a few.

And ?

And that is several orders of magnitude different from having sex with complete strangers, which is just stupid.

I don't see a problem.

It creates a situation that dissuades (mostly) females from entering the work environment, because at any time they could be called on to perform sexual favors for their employer or immediate supervisor and their only legal recourse would be comply or quit. I'm not a woman, but that's not something I would tolerate if I were.

How so ?

Prostitution negatively impacts minorities (women, the lower class, and non-whites) the most and encourages them to not seek a more complete education or a better life in exchange for short-term gains.

Who are the victims ?

The prostitutes.

 

[Belz...]

I'm also for stricter alcohol laws, so your attempt to make my post look like a special pleading fallacy is rendered invalid.

Not if you're not for banning alcohol entirely.

It's prostitution by proxy because someone is paying another person to have sex with another person, which they also pay.

Yeah, that's not prostitution.

For a lot of the same reasons that I'm against prostitution, plus a few.

I operate from a principle of allowing people to do whatever they want so long as no harm comes to others. Assuming you agree, how does pornography harm others ?

And that is several orders of magnitude different from having sex with complete strangers, which is just stupid.

Although I agree that having sex with complete strangers is unwise, it does not and should not be used as a reason to forbid people to do so.

It creates a situation that dissuades (mostly) females from entering the work environment, because at any time they could be called on to perform sexual favors for their employer or immediate supervisor and their only legal recourse would be comply or quit.

Isn't that why we have regulations ?

Prostitution negatively impacts minorities (women, the lower class, and non-whites) the most and encourages them to not seek a more complete education for short-term gains.

How so ? Do you know why people get into escort services or pornogrpahy ? (EDIT: Because I sure don't, and wouldn't assume to.)

The prostitutes.

The people doing the actual work are victims of what they do ? You'll have to explain that one to me.

 

[I Ratant]

Your rights end where public safety and health begins.

.
Those words have been subject to personal interpretations since.... that guy wrote that book about Adam and his consort.
The social push today is to eliminate the personal/ideological themes from the laws... Which is eons too late, but must be accomplished.

 

[I Ratant]

...

How so ? Do you have any idea why people get into escort services or pornogrpahy ?


...

.
I see many media figures go into prostitution when they fall off the popular stage. A girl's gotta eat, IOW. And usually also to feed the kid.

 

[Mudcat]

Not if you're not for banning alcohol entirely.

Imbibing in alcohol isn't the same as engaging in prostitution.

Alcohol, drunk responsibly and in moderation, is not only safe but actually healthy.

Having sex with complete strangers, even without money involved? Even you agreed that it is unwise.

Yeah, that's not prostitution.

Yes, it is.

I operate from a principle of allowing people to do whatever they want so long as no harm comes to another. Assuming you agree, how does pornography harm others ?

Pornography isn't free from harm. While it could be said that nothing is, all pornography seems to do is line the pockets of some very sleazy excuses of human beings.

Although I agree that having sex with complete strangers is unwise, it does not and should not be used as a reason to forbid people to do so.

I beg to disagree.

How so ? Do you have any idea why people get into escort services or pornogrpahy ?

Lack of any other reasonable options. Which is hardly a good argument for it.

The people doing the actual work are victims of what they do ? You'll have to explain that one to me.

So being used and abused as a nameless sex object doesn't make prostitutes victims?

 

[Mark6]

So being used and abused as a nameless sex object doesn't make prostitutes victims?

"Used" is a meaningless term here. When I pay a porter to carry my bag, am I using him as a nameless beast of burden?

As for "abused" -- where prostitution is legal, it is subject to same protections as any other job. A customer who gets physically abusive will be evicted and/or arrested, just like a customer who gets physically abusive in a barbershop.

 

[BenBurch]

"Used" is a meaningless term here. When I pay a porter to carry my bag, am I using him as a nameless beast of burden?

As for "abused" -- where prostitution is legal, it is subject to same protections as any other job. A customer who gets physically abusive will be evicted and/or arrested, just like a customer who gets physically abusive in a barbershop.

An organ of my body is used in return for payment every day.

My brain.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Imbibing in alcohol isn't the same as engaging in prostitution.
Alcohol, drunk responsibly and in moderation, is not only safe but actually healthy.
Having sex with complete strangers, even without money involved? Even you agreed that it is unwise.
Yes, it is.
Pornography isn't free from harm. While it could be said that nothing is, all pornography seems to do is line the pockets of some very sleazy excuses of human beings.
I beg to disagree.
Lack of any other reasonable options. Which is hardly a good argument for it.
So being used and abused as a nameless sex object doesn't make prostitutes victims?

As with the last time this came up, you have presented a good set of reasons why you, personally, would not (and, frankly, should not) engage the services of a licensed, regulated, consensual sex-for-hire provider. What you have yet to do is explain why your distaste and paternalism should be translated into legal prohibition of licensed, regulated, consensual sex-for-hire.

 

[Mudcat]

"Used" is a meaningless term here. When I pay a porter to carry my bag, am I using him as a nameless beast of burden?

As for "abused" -- where prostitution is legal, it is subject to same protections as any other job. A customer who gets physically abusive will be evicted and/or arrested, just like a customer who gets physically abusive in a barbershop.

So what you're saying is that you consider paying a man that you are on a first name basis with to use his knowledge and training that he went to school and earned to cut your hair cut is the same as getting a blow job from some prostitute you don't even know the real name of half your age who likely dropped out of high school?

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing how the two are in any way equivalent.