Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

[Dissolution]

Aren't there actually rather a large number of moral reasons for prostitution to be both legal and regulated?
Use the tax that it would generate to police the aspects that we all (presumably) find unacceptable, like people being trafficked or forced into it, underage prostitution and unsafe environments, as well as the health issues that can arise from unsafe sex.

It appears to be an issue with similar dividing lines to the use of currently illegal drugs.
I believe that both would benefit from a change of approach.

 

[marplots]

This is actually incorrect. Murder is illegal not because it is morally outrageous, but rather for the fact that no-one wants someone else to murder them. We put the law in place because we deem our own right to life to be precious and thus have created a law against someone taking away that right. It has nothing to do with morality.

But isn't it also immoral? I mean, shouldn't I be against murders that have nothing to do with me at all? PETA rhetoric, and anti-abortion rhetoric use the term, and I think they do it because they believe they will get a morality-based reaction: "Fur is murder" "Abortion is murder."

And we argue about whether euthanasia should be allowed - a type of murder where the victim has a choice.

In other words, although I agree I don't want to be murdered, the issue goes beyond a quid pro quo and extends into the realm of, "I wish murder didn't exist in the world at all." The formula as you describe it doesn't explain why I wouldn't be a murderer myself, only why others shouldn't be.

I think the bit about "I don't want it to happen to me" has more to do with the way I answer moral questions. Like other hypotheticals, one method is to try to imagine oneself in the circumstance being examined- a mental model, if you will. It taps into feelings of empathy and "puts us there." The "there" makes it easier to then poll our moral sense and decide if it's right or wrong.

 

[kerikiwi]

Do those who think prostitution should be illegal also think sex for free should be illegal?
How does the exchange of money change the nature of the act?

 

[Mark6]

Do those who think prostitution should be illegal also think sex for free should be illegal?
How does the exchange of money change the nature of the act?

Also sex for food and drinks.

 

[banquetbear]

But isn't it also immoral? I mean, shouldn't I be against murders that have nothing to do with me at all? PETA rhetoric, and anti-abortion rhetoric use the term, and I think they do it because they believe they will get a morality-based reaction: "Fur is murder" "Abortion is murder."

And we argue about whether euthanasia should be allowed - a type of murder where the victim has a choice.

In other words, although I agree I don't want to be murdered, the issue goes beyond a quid pro quo and extends into the realm of, "I wish murder didn't exist in the world at all." The formula as you describe it doesn't explain why I wouldn't be a murderer myself, only why others shouldn't be.

I think the bit about "I don't want it to happen to me" has more to do with the way I answer moral questions. Like other hypotheticals, one method is to try to imagine oneself in the circumstance being examined- a mental model, if you will. It taps into feelings of empathy and "puts us there." The "there" makes it easier to then poll our moral sense and decide if it's right or wrong.

...it may or may not be immoral, but murder is not illegal because it is immoral.

Do you personally think prostitution is immoral?

 

[PhantomWolf]

But isn't it also immoral? I mean, shouldn't I be against murders that have nothing to do with me at all? PETA rhetoric, and anti-abortion rhetoric use the term, and I think they do it because they believe they will get a morality-based reaction: "Fur is murder" "Abortion is murder."

It's immoral because we don't like it, we don't like it because we don't want it to happen to us or our friends and family. You're getting your chicken and egg mixed up.

PETA and co actually use the word murder, not for it's morality value, but it's emotional value. Murder is the killing of a human, a being or sentience. By applying the word murder to an animal then the user is trying to humanise the animal, and thus tug at our heart string. They want us to have an emotional reaction, not a moral one.

And we argue about whether euthanasia should be allowed - a type of murder where the victim has a choice.

Actually euthanasia is a type of suicide, not murder, hence why it is called assisted suicide and those charged as generally brought up on charges of aiding a suicide or manslaughter, rather than murder.

Again the laws against suicide come from a selfish position, we don't want our friends and family taking their our lives, this bleeds into euthanasia, with the added side that we'd rather not end up in the situation where we felt pressured to top ourselves instead of being a burden to our family, because it has become the "right" thing to do.

In other words, although I agree I don't want to be murdered, the issue goes beyond a quid pro quo and extends into the realm of, "I wish murder didn't exist in the world at all."

Not really, most of us honestly don't care if someone gets murdered outside of our circle of friends and family. Yes we show empathy for the victim's family, because we are aware of how we would feel in their shoes, but we don't really care, we don't know them, we get on with our lives and forget them. That's natural. We do care if the person murdered is close to us, those are the ones we support the law to protect.

The formula as you describe it doesn't explain why I wouldn't be a murderer myself, only why others shouldn't be.

If we could craft laws only to affect the actions of others, you might have a point. In general are desire to remain unmurdered ourselves vastly overwhelms the desire to murder another person, and thus on the balance, having a law that affects everyone, including us, that then attempts to stop someone murdering us is what we are willing to live with.

I think the bit about "I don't want it to happen to me" has more to do with the way I answer moral questions. Like other hypotheticals, one method is to try to imagine oneself in the circumstance being examined- a mental model, if you will. It taps into feelings of empathy and "puts us there." The "there" makes it easier to then poll our moral sense and decide if it's right or wrong.

And here you are almost there. Morality comes from a sense of "How would I feel if that was done to me." If we don't want it being done to us we term that as "Immoral". It has gone further than this though to the point of "Immoral is anything I don't want done to me, or any action I find yucky." It's the last bit that is a problem. Creating laws based on "I don't want this done to me" is fine, because the majority would likely agree. Making law based on "I fine that action yucky" is more subjective as the amount of "yucky" varies from person to person. Some people find mixed race relationships "yucky", should we go back to banning those?

This is why we shouldn't make law based on "Morals" and when we do, it often turns out to be bad law. (Segregation, Anti-Homosexual, etc...)

 

[I Ratant]

Also sex for food and drinks.

.
And movies, and lingerie, and frocks, and smelly stuff...

 

[BenBurch]

.
A guy I knew worked at a hardware store... a lady bought a fixture, and he asked her "Screw for it?"... and she said "No, I'll pay cash."

My friend Annie Sprinkle used to get all her dentistry in trade.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is actually incorrect. Murder is illegal not because it is morally outrageous, but rather for the fact that no-one wants someone else to murder them. We put the law in place because we deem our own right to life to be precious and thus have created a law against someone taking away that right. It has nothing to do with morality.

I don't know that it is completely true to say that it has nothing to do with morality. I think that there is an aspect of morality embedded in laws against murder, theft, assault, etc. But there is also a hierarchy of competing rights aspect of it - my right to my continued life trumps your right to shoot at my head. I think that the latter, more pragmatic rationale is probably a true statement for today... but I suspect that a good chunk of western law has a strong christian influence - so there's an aspect of the ten commandments in it's origin. And those are certainly moralistic in nature.

Just my opinion; it could be wrong and you're free to disagree.

 

[kedo1981]

That may be one of the most sexist things I've ever read.

But it don't make less true.
Amend it to "and there are men who also perform sex acts for none cash" if you like.

 

[Babbylonian]

But it don't make less true.

If so, then surely you can back it up.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No. Quite the opposite in fact, there are many reason why it shouldn't be illegal.

 

[Kopji]

banquetbear
Some general responses since the conversation was dragged over here.

The New Zealand experience with their law interested me and I spend some time today reading most of the 177 page 6 year review of the 2003 law.
http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/c...publications/plrc-report/documents/report.pdf

Most of the articles that were easily accessible to me were dated around that timeframe.

At your request I took some extra time and looked for more recent data and it is collected in a rather haphazard form in this post.
NZ does not seem to be like the US where we survey every little social topic. I was wrong that the law was overturned in a city. It looks like three cities passed by-laws that would have effectively overturned the law, but those more restrictive efforts were overturned at higher government levels.

I do not retract anything about the law still being controversial in NZ. Most of it seems to be around street workers rather than what NZ calls soobs (4 people or less small business brothels.)

The "property" argument is more or less just an argument tool so don't be distracted with attacks against me. One of the arguments for legalization is a libertarian one, and private property protection is foundational to that thinking. So do not see how you can coherently criticize someone for protecting their interests while at the same time advocating businesses that decrease their value and promote your own interests. The facts seem to be that like it or not there persists significant social stigma about sex trade business.

NZ does seem to have the blinders on a bit when it comes to that - there are unhappy with the law there.

If you are looking to argue with my actual concerns, it would be along the lines that we see a high degree of mental health problems and destitution among prostitutes. Where does that come from? Is it from the trade itself, or is it because mentally ill people can make a lot of money there?

I find that both things could be true but I was not able to find much in NZ that seemed concerned about it.

Consider though, that instead of treating mental illness a country could solve the problem by employing them as prostitutes and save a lot of expense. Extremely cynical yes, but in Arizona we already jail and imprison the mentally ill so it does not seem like a stretch.

100 countries and their prostitution policies
http://prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000772
Sort of a stroll though the bad news of 100 countries, not very scientific but interesting nonetheless.

Is prostitution harmful to mental health?
http://prostitution.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000106
(The "no" arguments are a fail, btw they need better ones than this.)

I am interested in seeing more interest in the mental health care of your workers and how it is holding up. All I see are physical health concerns.


My data collection for today. The issues are ongoing. I don't expect a response on everything but don't tell me everything is going great.

*******************************************************

3/2013
Prostitutes as young as 13 are earning up to $600 a night in South Auckland, says an MP who will be at a meeting called by community leaders to discuss an "outbreak" of underage street workers in the area.

Community and government representatives, including NZ First MP Asenati Lole-Taylor and party leader Winston Peters, will attend the open meeting hosted by Otara-Papatoetoe Local Board next Saturday.

The increasing number of underage prostitutes on the streets in Otara from Thursday to Saturday nights has shocked residents in the area.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10873870

*************
11/2013

Former prostitutes and their advocates are calling for clients of sex workers to be prosecuted, saying the decriminalisation of the industry has failed them.

Freedom from Sexual Exploitation director Elizabeth Subritzky told Parliament’s justice and electoral committee the only solution to the damage that prostitution caused, and the violence it created, was to prosecute buyers of sexual services through a reform of prostitution laws.

The Prostitution Reform Act decriminalised brothels, escort agencies, and soliciting when it narrowly passed into law by one vote in 2003.

The act not only encouraged more men to buy sex, but transformed prostitution into an acceptable, even attractive job for young, poor women in New Zealand, Subritzky said.

The petition, with 2910 signatures, calls for a law change which will make the purchase of sexual services illegal, extending the existing law which enables clients of underage prostitutes to be prosecuted.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9428778/Ex-prostitutes-call-for-law-change

***************
1/2011
Prostitutes could be banned from street trading in Auckland and beyond after the Super City council voted to support a bill which was originally focused on one area.

Violence, turf wars and streets littered with syringes and used condoms at Hunters Corner and Manurewa led the former Manukau City Council to have a bill introduced to Parliament.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10702523

***************
11/2013
A prostitute has laid an assault complaint against a homeowner in her 50's who discovered the woman and her client having sex in her fenced yard early on October 13.

The homeowner said she hit the prostitute after the woman lunged at her and scratched her face when she confronted them.

It was "bad luck" the prostitute, who required hospital treatment for her injuries, came off second best, the woman’s husband said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/north-west/9395527/Resident-prostitution-tensions-blowing-up

***************
2/2014

Restaurant diners being solicited by prostitutes, people performing indecencies outside brothels, and explicit

signs and billboards in full view of children: All of these are feeding calls for Hamilton to establish a red-light district, in an attempt to corral the city's adult entertainment businesses - and some associated unsavoury behaviour - into one area.

The Hamilton Central Business Association, along with several business owners, is leading the charge, saying Hamilton has reached the point where it needs to do something to address a growing problem.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-time...or-Hamilton-to-establish-a-red-light-district

****************
5/2012
One of Auckland's most notorious spots for street prostitution is being cleaned up by a council project which has seen CCTV cameras introduced, foot patrols by police and locals, trees pruned and lighting added to deter antisocial behaviour.

Drinking and public urination are among the undesirable side effects of street prostitution in Hunters Corner, Papatoetoe, which the council hopes to prevent.

According to a report, to be presented to the council today, prostitution has proliferated in town centres in Manurewa and Papatoetoe since it was legalised in 2002.

It reveals that between November and January drinking and drug taking accounted for around a third of problems associated with prostitutes in Hunters Corner and nearby Southmall.

Public urination accounted for 12 per cent of problems - something the report concluded was difficult to address when public toilets closed at night time to prevent vandalism.

Other problems included defecating, public sexual acts, violence, excessive noise and littering. http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/7010483/Project-cleans-up-street-prostitution

*****************
2/2014
Wellington (AFP) - A New Zealand prostitute has won substantial damages for sexual harassment by a brothel owner, with sex workers hailing the decision as a landmark ruling that shows the country as a world leader in protecting their rights.

In what New Zealand media reported as a "world first", the Human Rights Review Tribunal awarded the 22-year-old brothel worker NZ$25,000 (US$21,000).

The tribunal heard the brothel owner reportedly told the woman he could do what he liked with the women who worked for him.

Over a three-month period, the older man belittled and frightened the woman until she felt unsafe and on edge, became depressed and turned to alcohol, according to the tribunal's decision released Saturday.
http://news.yahoo.com/zealand-prostitute-wins-sex-harassment-claim-012006748.html

****************

The Committee is aware that some people working in the sex industry are doing so in breach of their immigration status. The Committee does not endorse this illegal activity. However, it is also concerned that these sex workers are not protected under the PRA and may be vulnerable to exploitation. The Committee considers the prohibition on non-residents working in the sex industry, coupled with New Zealand's geographical isolation and robust legal system, provides a protection against New Zealand being targeted as a destination for human traffickers.

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/c...ittee/publications/plrc-report/13-trafficking

**********************
2013 election

Included because the issues of those elected reflect community interest in restraining prostitution
http://www.vote.co.nz/2013/election...toe-local-board-papatoetoe-subdivision/issues

 

[kerikiwi]

...
At your request I took some extra time and looked for more recent data and it is collected in a rather haphazard form in this post. ...
...

My data collection for today. The issues are ongoing. I don't expect a response on everything but don't tell me everything is going great.

*******************************************************

Your collection did not provide any data at all

 

[psionl0]

Prostitution has never been illegal in Western Australia - only brothels, soliciting and pimping. Nevertheless, throughout this state's history, the police (with the government's blessing) allowed some brothels to trade illegally under a policy called "containment". This policy eventually came unstuck towards the end of the last century when the courts started questioning why some madams were being charged and not others.

The main arguments against prostitution is that it exploits/devalues women and that it is a magnet for organized crime. Prostitution reform in Australia has been aimed at keeping organized crime out of it and preventing it from being driven underground. Unfortunately, laws requiring brothels and prostitutes to be registered have not had this desired effect.

The unfairness in prostitution laws is that it is all on the women (apart from the pimps of course). It is perfectly legal for men to seek out the services of prostitutes (and "kerb crawling" is a problem in parts of the city) even though the street walkers can be charged with a crime. There have been suggestions that it should be illegal for men to seek out prostitutes as it is in Sweden (where the law has been very successful in containing prostitution). To date, no Australian politician is prepared to bite the bullet on that one.

 

[Cain]

I heard prostitution is illegal because of upfront pricing.

Anyway, I have a brilliant idea for a brothel. I can mention it here because it's 1) Legal prostitution in California is decades away; 2) I'll never have the capital to get it started.

It's modeled after 50s style burger joints. Girls come over on rollerskates and then yada yada yada in your car. It's called "Come & Go." And yes, you can get fries with that.

 

[fromdownunder]

2) Having sex in trade for something vaguely defined (dinner and a movie?) is legal

"Close in spirit, but wide of the mark. You have an expression ‘the oldest profession.' Here—and in all other known worlds—it isn't even the youngest. Nobody has heard of it and wouldn't believe it if he did. We few who visit Earth don't talk about it. Not that it would matter; most people don't believe travelers' tales."


"Star, are you telling me that there is no prostitution elsewhere in the Universe?"


"The Universes, my darling. None."


"You know," I said thoughtfully, "that's going to be a shock to my first sergeant. None at all?"

"I mean," she said bluntly, "that whoring seems to have been invented by Earth people and no others—and the idea would shock old Jocko into impotence. He's a straitlaced moralist."


"I'll be damned! We must be a bunch of slobs."


"I did not mean to offend, Oscar; I was reciting facts. But this oddity of Earth is not odd in its own context. Any commodity is certain to be sold—bought, sold, leased, rented, bartered, traded, discounted, price-stabilized, inflated, bootlegged, and legislated—and a woman's ‘commodity' as it was called on Earth in franker days is no exception. The only wonder is the wild notion of thinking of it as a commodity. Why, it so surprised me that once I even—Never mind. Anything can be made a commodity.


"Star, you've got your facts wrong. There is almost no prostitution in America."


She looked startled. "Really? But—Isn't ‘alimony' an American word? And ‘gold digger'? And ‘coming-out party'?"


"Yes, but prostitution has almost died out. Hell, I wouldn't know how to go about finding a whorehouse even in an Army town. I'm not saying that you don't wind up in the hay. But it's not commercialized. Star, even with an American girl who is well-known to be an easy make-out, if you offered her five bucks—or twenty—it's ten to one she would slap your face."


"Then how is it done?"


"You're nice to her instead. Take her to dinner, maybe to a show. Buy her flowers, girls are suckers for flowers. Then approach the subject politely."


"Oscar, doesn't this dinner and show, and possibly flowers, cost more than five dollars? Or even twenty? I understood that American prices were as high as French prices."


"Well, yes, but you can't just tip your hat and expect a girl to throw herself on her back. A tightwad—"


"I rest the case. All I was trying to show was that customs can be wildly different in different worlds."


"That's true, even on Earth. But—"


"Please, milord. I won't argue the virtue of American women, nor was I criticizing. Had I been reared in America I think I would want at least an emerald bracelet rather than dinner and a show.

- Robert A Heinlein, Glory Road. (1963)



Norm

 

[Rasmus]

But there is a huge difference. When people are forced ETA (in many countries in which prostitution is illegal) by destitution to become taxi drivers, bank clerks, or sweatshop workers, they can still go to the police a be taken seriously when they report a rape or other crime of violence.

But that hasn't got anything to do with whether they were forced, has it? An illegal prostitute by choice still can't go to the police. A problem, of course, but none stemming from the fact that there was an element of force involved.

They can still find a spouse from as large a pool of people as they could before being forced into that job. There are other differences as well,

there are differences, yes. but again, these are not responsible for me feeling bad about people being forced to do something they don't chose to do. Admittedly, "forced by destitution" is a very complex area. I am not rich enough to quit and never work another day. Am I forced to work, and is that a bad thing?

 

[banquetbear]

banquetbear
My data collection for today. The issues are ongoing. I don't expect a response on everything but don't tell me everything is going great.

*******************************************************

...I've already told you that things aren't perfect. But you said you were going to present data, and its disappointing that you presented a collection of anecdotes. As I've reminded you: child prostitution is illegal here. So if you think there is a link between legal prostitution and illegal child prostitution, then its time you presented that link. Because I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Your first cite is an anecdote. It includes statements from a Maori Warden which if true are most certainly evidence that he isn't doing his job properly. I ask you again: how many arrests and convictions were there for child prostitution related offenses in 2013?

The second cite talks about a petition that gathered less than three thousand signatures. To put that in perspective: a petition to stop the sale of State Owned Enterprises gathered well over three hundred thousand signatures. There is very little information about the New Zealand branch of Freedom from Sexual Exploitation. From their links section: the first link is to the leading NZ Christian political party Family First. The site appears to be a mirror of an overseas site and I have my doubt that this organization is as representative as it claims. Their 3rd aim makes me wince: "To unite christians in prayer and social action."

www.ffse.org.nz/about-us

Uggg. This is the kind of moralising that does not belong in the law making process.

The NZ Prostitutes Collective is generally recognized in NZ as the reputable spokespeople for the industry. Their stance on the law change can be found here:

http://www.nzpc.org.nz/index.php?page=Law

Your third cite is a collection of anecdotes again: it doesn't demonstrate the "laws have failed" but it does demonstrate a bunch of MP's posturing trying to win votes.

Your fourth cite has me wondering: did you just google prostitution New Zealand and then post links from that popped up? Because I have to wonder what do you think that cite proves? I've already conceded things aren't perfect. What do you think a random fight between people says about the prostitution laws here?

Regarding the fifth cite: again if sexual acts are being conducted in public: that is illegal. The fact that no-one is complaining to the police leads me to doubt the veracity of the complaints in that article. And having visited the area in question I have a hard time matching what I read in the article and what I was in real life. Once again more anecdotes.

Regarding your sixth cite: again, I know the area quite well. I crashed my third car there. I'm sure there are problems. But every time I've gone through Hunters Corner has been delightfully boring. So it looks like the CCTV cameras introduced, foot patrols by police and locals, trees pruned and lighting added to deter antisocial behaviour did their job. Without the need to change the law.

Regarding your sixth cite: I've cited that case twice in this thread. Did you really need to cite it a third time? Its an example of the sort of resolution that is possible when prostitution is legal.

Regarding the Justice Department cite: I've already (again) conceded that geographical differences make some things easier and make some things harder. But just because something is harder doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. So I've got no sympathy for the argument that "we are geographically different, so we can't do it." Respecting human rights and human dignity shouldn't depend on where you live.

Your seventh cite is absolutely hilarious. Someone standing for the Auckland Council - Otara Papatoetoe Local Board - Papatoetoe Subdivision who came last in the election happened to mention prostitution, so you decided to cite it. (Granted, Stephen Grey mentioned it as well.) Papatoetoe has already been mentioned in two of your other cites. It represents the "lions share" of issues that have cropped up regarding prostitution and have much more to do with cultural and economic issues than anything else.

Nearly all of your cites talk about street prostitution. From 2005 figures street prostitution makes up only 10% of all prostitutes and those in South Auckland (the principal places you've cited as problem areas) make up only 2% of total prostitutes.

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/c...-of-the-numbers-of-sex-workers-in-new-zealand

If we assume that not all street prostitutes in South Auckland are a problem, then your anecdotes don't really seem to be as big an issue as you want to try and make them out to be. Like almost everything: the "bad cases" get the publicity. There is no controversy. There is no ground well of support to overturn the law.

But forget about all that for a minute.

Here were the reasons why the Prostitutes Collective supported the law reforms:

The Prostitution Reform Act was passed on 25 June 2003. The New Zealand Prostitutes Collective pushed to have these new laws, and designed the new laws over time with input from very many sex workers. The original Bill was changed as it went through a three year Parliamentary debate. As a result, we didn't get all that we wanted. The Act is designed to:
(a) safeguard the human rights of sex workers and protect them from exploitation;
(b) promote the welfare and occupational health and safety of sex workers:
(c) be conducive to public health:
(d) prohibit the use in prostitution of persons under 18 years of age; and
(e) implements certain other related reforms.

None of your cites show failure of any of these stated goals. Fighting the social stigma is the point. For all your talk about property values and mental illness and private property protection you forget that the push to change the laws came down to fundamental human rights. I don't think property rights are more important than allowing men and women the choice of what to do with their bodies. And I certainly don't think that people should be jailed for threatening property values. This really is the lamest argument I've ever heard opposing legalised prostitution: I'm surprised you persist with it.

There are of course difficulties. Nothing is perfect.

Your concerns for the "mental health" of New Zealand prostitutes seem as empty as your concerns for property values. You don't seem to be concerned with the well being of sex workers at all: if you were you would be listening to what they are saying.

 

[Mudcat]

Would you include prostitution in the same category as murder? Do you consider prostitution morally repugnant?

I don't put prostitution in the same category as murder, but I do put it in the same category as chattel slavery. Shall we remove the ban on that, as well?