Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[McHrozni]

Spin0's first quote neglects that the eastern Ukraine is made up of mostly Russian speakers. Even though many are Ukrainian and many speak Ukrainian, throughout most of eastern Ukraine, they speak Russian as their first language. Just an fyi.

For a sufficiently liberal interpretation of either "eastern Ukraine" or "most", to be sure.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed.PNG

Realistically: there are a few regions in Ukraine, mainly in the east, where Russian is the first languague of majority.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

New government says Yanukovych and his cronies stole $70 billion from the country's treasury.

Ukraine faces economic collapse, new PM says

Maybe. Plausible. OTOH, he has reasons to delegitimize the previous regime and thereby legitimize his own. I'm in no position to confirm or deny the facts. Heck, I can't even be sure the new guys didn't steal some of it themselves and blamed it on the previous ones.

If this is true, Yanukovich was either going to quit anyway and just used Maidan as an excuse, or is a moron. Third and highly unlikely option is that he hid the money he was going to use for the country away as to sabotage his successor. Well, maybe it's not THAT unlikely. It could be a combination of all five options - these three plus attempt to delegitimize previous regime and stealing some for themselves.

McHrozni

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Armed men seize two Ukrainian airports on Crimea.

 

[angrysoba]

If this is true, Yanukovich was either going to quit anyway and just used Maidan as an excuse, or is a moron. Third and highly unlikely option is that he hid the money he was going to use for the country away as to sabotage his successor. Well, maybe it's not THAT unlikely. It could be a combination of all five options - these three plus attempt to delegitimize previous regime and stealing some for themselves.

McHrozni

I don't know. Corruption is as common as dirt, and usually can easily be explained by greed. Corruption on an epic scale, such as this, just tends to mean either epic greed or common greed combined with opportunity.

 

[L.Y.S.]

For a sufficiently liberal interpretation of either "eastern Ukraine" or "most", to be sure.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed.PNG

Realistically: there are a few regions in Ukraine, mainly in the east, where Russian is the first languague of majority.

McHrozni

Many of those small red blotches on that map represent major urban centers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RussianUseEn.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg

There are still reasonable portions of native speakers of Russian in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Russian serves as the the primary mode of communication in most parts of eastern and southern Ukraine.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I don't know. Corruption is as common as dirt, and usually can easily be explained by greed. Corruption on an epic scale, such as this, just tends to mean either epic greed or common greed combined with opportunity.

Most Ukrainian politicians are ruthlessly corrupt.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Armed men seize two Ukrainian airports on Crimea.

Yeah, most likely Russo-Ukrainian ex-military types.

 

[angrysoba]

Most Ukrainian politicians are ruthlessly corrupt.

Yes, I expect that is true.

 

[McHrozni]

I don't know. Corruption is as common as dirt, and usually can easily be explained by greed. Corruption on an epic scale, such as this, just tends to mean either epic greed or common greed combined with opportunity.

Well yeah, but 70 billion dollars is a GDP of a not-that-small country. It's nearly half of Ukrainian GDP, stolen from Ukraine, in three years. For comparison, this is like stealing three military budgets from US every year, for three years straight. It's a tad much, even for something as widespread as corruption. Certainly the option of sabotage is compelling here, although this is also a form of corruption.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Many of those small red blotches on that map represent major urban centers.

Sure, but Crimea is still the only region of Ukraine where Russian is actually the langaugue of majority. Get your facts straight for a change.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

New government says Yanukovych and his cronies stole $70 billion from the country's treasury.

Ukraine faces economic collapse, new PM says



Maybe. Plausible. OTOH, he has reasons to delegitimize the previous regime and thereby legitimize his own. I'm in no position to confirm or deny the facts. Heck, I can't even be sure the new guys didn't steal some of it themselves and blamed it on the previous ones.

What an exceptionally fair post. I too could go either way on theft in general, but that's a very large amount for such a mid-sized economy. I hope it's grossly exaggerated.

Related question - does anyone know how many votes are being cast for all these exciting new decisions in parliament, swiftly and with no protracted debate or opposition? Is it the full roster of elected representative, or has the system amputated part of itself? Some leaders and reps defected, and some fled for their physical safety. Maybe some in parliament?

Chasing away, say, 1/5 of the votes, the solid opposition ones, threatening another 1/5 (the softies), and then ramming through a blitzkrieg of radical legislation, illegalizing the old order, etc. I argue that that would not really be a good sign for democracy in Ukraine.

As far as I can tell so far, it may be just like that. They are suddenly doing drastically different things in rapid succession, with what I presume is unusual efficiency.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Sure, but Crimea is still the only region of Ukraine where Russian is actually the langaugue of majority. Get your facts straight for a change.

McHrozni

I was actually going to correct myself, but never mind.

 

[L.Y.S.]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...aca598-9fd2-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html

An excerpt from the article:

The protestors then seized the regional government building. Many wear the red arm bands of the right wing Pravy Sektor movement that was the militant backbone of the Maidan uprising in the capital.

I misquoted and said Svoboda, which is another major right wing party was spearheading the Maidan movement. No doubt they had their hands in the mix, but they were just one of many right wing organizations responsible for the orchestration of mass protests against the Yanukovych regime.

But with that being said, why do people go out of their way to say right wing extremists weren't the back bone of the movement when a large number of respectable western sources confirm this? Was it every protestor? No. Was it only a few? No. Was there a reasonable portion? I'll let this article give the answer for the 12th time.

 

[Caustic Logic]

BTW: Did you notice that article I linked about unofficial "Ukraine hero"?

No. I looked back as far as page 14 but that's as far as I'll dig.

ETA: Bandera? One article I link to below mentions him.

 

[angrysoba]

There are still reasonable portions of native speakers of Russian in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Russian serves as the the primary mode of communication in most parts of eastern and southern Ukraine.

And?

 

[L.Y.S.]

And?

Meaning that they are much more adjusted to Russian cultural norms and that they are much more willing to work with Moscow than western Ukraine.

 

[uke2se]

Travis, there is a reasonable size of neo-Nazis in the western region of the country. Jews are in ultra defense mod right now. Many Jews are thinking it best to pack up and leave. Poland is even leery about the rising tide of nationalism in some parts of Ukraine. Saying that "few" protestors are neo-Nazis is an understatement, and saying "all" protestors are neo-Nazis is an overstatement. It's more than likely somewhere in the middle.

As for your concerns about 150,000 Russians, there's nothing more than mere saber rattling going on. I think Russia is just being plain stupid right now though. The intimidation tactics are only solidifying Western Ukraine's vehement opposition to Russia. I don't know why Russia hurt itself by prematurely forcing Ukraine to sign a deal, nor do I understand why their moving around a bunch of troops to intimidate Ukraine. If I was a level headed Russia I wouldn't be too happy about the stupidity of the government.

With that being said, I suspect that Russia will allow the eastern provinces of Ukraine to revolt on their own and simply position troops in the rebel conquered territories. Russia though, I am sure, is aware of how the rest of it's customs union allies are watching it. Russia isn't going to try too much.

But according to Press TV, da Zionists are actually on the protesters' side. I'm so confused. Who's da Nazi and who's da Joo?

 

[angrysoba]

Meaning that they are much more adjusted to Russian cultural norms and that they are much more willing to work with Moscow than western Ukraine.

I think this is an assumption.

 

[spin0]

Spin0's first quote neglects that the eastern Ukraine is made up of mostly Russian speakers. Even though many are Ukrainian and many speak Ukrainian, throughout most of eastern Ukraine, they speak Russian as their first language. Just an fyi.

Speaking Russian is not equal to being Russian. You implied that Eastern Ukraine is ethnically Russian which is simply not true.

And Eastern Ukraine is not "made up of mostly Russian speakers". Many are bilingual while some areas in Eastern Ukraine do have majority of population speaking Russian as their first language mostly in some of the cities. Just for one example here's the make up Kharkiv oblast in Eastern Ukraine by first language as per 2001 census:

Demographics regarding identity, ethnicity and language are much more nyanced than you have implied with the oversimplifications.

 

[spin0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine#Demographics
There are enough Russians in eastern Ukraine to cause genuine concern.

In Eastern Ukraine there are regions with significant ethnic Russian minorities. But Eastern Ukraine is not ethnically Russian as you implied, and they're not majority or the largest ethnic group in Eastern Ukraine. The only region where ethnic Russians are the largest group is Crimea in South.

To claim that Eastern Ukraine regions are Russian is misleadingly oversimplifying, as things are much more nyanced than that.

There are roughly 8.5 million Russians in Ukraine.

I don't know where you got that number as according to your own source it was 8.3 million in 2001 and has been on decline.

According to your own source in 2001 census:
Population of Ukraine: 48,457,000
Russians: 8,334,100 (17.2%)

And as compared to previous census the Russian population has been on a decline due to emigration, declaring Ukrainian identity, low fertility rate, and death rate. Here's the table of censuses from your source:

They make up about 37% of East Ukraine's population.

Census data to support this?

I don't exactly know the point of this exercise, but there is a large enough Russia population in Ukraine to have to them in consideration.

The point is that Eastern Ukraine is not ethnically Russian as you implied.