Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Klimax]

I beg to differ with the highlighted. We could both be wrong, but Ukraine certainly looks like another huge mess.

As for your last sentence, I'm thinking that's more up the alley of Ukraine.

A mess for sure, but if they don't have systematic money black hole (like too huge social security) then it will be mostly fixing expenses' like those real estates.

Well, I suspect we'll have to wait. BTW: Opposition want s very similar package from EU as former government was to get from Russia, so if that package won't be enough, then more then likely it wouldn't be sufficient in original case too.

*Sighs*

Here we go again with the denying of neo-Nazism in Ukraine.

What denial? Posters just recognize, that neo-Nazism is there but not so far of much significance.

===

Anyway new article on Reuters:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/uk-ukraine-idUKBREA1H0EM20140227

Hm, wargames...

 

[trustbutverify]

*Sighs*

Here we go again with the denying of neo-Nazism in Ukraine.

Who's denying neo-Nazism in Ukraine?

 

[Travis]

A woman I know through someone else has been active, along with her friends and family, in the opposition in Kiev throughout all this. To have people accusing them (who's major cause is that they want the Ukraine to be a progressive, tolerant nation modeled on Western Europe) of being Nazis is just sickening. They could not be further from that.


To put this in perspective, imagine that a US president went nuts and started doing wholly tyrannical things and the population turned on him. Might a few pro-Nazis turn up at rallies? Sure. But they'd oppose anyone in power that wasn't a Nazi like them.

The last thing I'm worried about are a select few crackpots among the opposition. What does worry me are the 150,000 Russian troops massing on the border.

 

[Meed]

*Sighs*

Here we go again with the denying of neo-Nazism in Ukraine.

Don't mistake my joke for support of one side or the other.

 

[McHrozni]

Firstly, you seem to not understand that Kazakhstan actually LIKES and has good relations with Russia. The situation in Kazakhstan is COMPLETELY different than Ukraine or Georgia for that fact. Americans and Western Europeans wrongly assume all Former Soviet nations have poor relations with Russia, when in fact most remain rather friendly with Russia.

They like good relations with Russia in the same way a sheep in a pen wants good relations with a hungry bear stuck in the same pen. Trust no descision made with the treat of death (economic in this case) if you make the 'wrong' one.

AND MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE GOING BELLY UP!

Which ones? Ireland is significantly mended, Spain, Portugal and Italy are on the mend, Cyprus has solved the banking issues. Growth in Eurozone has picked up. Please tell me who are these "many" countries who are going "belly up"?

Are you seriously going to tell me that Europe can handle more poor nations buried in debt? 35 Billion USD is only the surface amount that they will need to STAY AFLOAT! They will need additional bailouts once Ukrainian businesses virtually collapse due to being poorly equipped to handle Eurozone regulations. So an ADDITIONAL bailout would be required to keep the collapsing Ukrainian economy afloat. You seem to underestimate the baggage of Ukrainian debt.

You're asserting, against good advice, Ukraine would be required to instantly adhere to all European regulation, without any investment coming the other way. In light of this you are not worthy of a response beyond pointing and laughing. So, there:
*point* Ha-ha!

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

A woman I know through someone else has been active, along with her friends and family, in the opposition in Kiev throughout all this. To have people accusing them (who's major cause is that they want the Ukraine to be a progressive, tolerant nation modeled on Western Europe) of being Nazis is just sickening. They could not be further from that.


To put this in perspective, imagine that a US president went nuts and started doing wholly tyrannical things and the population turned on him. Might a few pro-Nazis turn up at rallies? Sure. But they'd oppose anyone in power that wasn't a Nazi like them.

The last thing I'm worried about are a select few crackpots among the opposition. What does worry me are the 150,000 Russian troops massing on the border.

Travis, there is a reasonable size of neo-Nazis in the western region of the country. Jews are in ultra defense mod right now. Many Jews are thinking it best to pack up and leave. Poland is even leery about the rising tide of nationalism in some parts of Ukraine. Saying that "few" protestors are neo-Nazis is an understatement, and saying "all" protestors are neo-Nazis is an overstatement. It's more than likely somewhere in the middle.

As for your concerns about 150,000 Russians, there's nothing more than mere saber rattling going on. I think Russia is just being plain stupid right now though. The intimidation tactics are only solidifying Western Ukraine's vehement opposition to Russia. I don't know why Russia hurt itself by prematurely forcing Ukraine to sign a deal, nor do I understand why their moving around a bunch of troops to intimidate Ukraine. If I was a level headed Russia I wouldn't be too happy about the stupidity of the government.

With that being said, I suspect that Russia will allow the eastern provinces of Ukraine to revolt on their own and simply position troops in the rebel conquered territories. Russia though, I am sure, is aware of how the rest of it's customs union allies are watching it. Russia isn't going to try too much.

 

[McHrozni]

With that being said, I suspect that Russia will allow the eastern provinces of Ukraine to revolt on their own and simply position troops in the rebel conquered territories. Russia though, I am sure, is aware of how the rest of it's customs union allies are watching it. Russia isn't going to try too much.

Making a land grab of that sort does have a significant, non-trivial similarity to Nazis. I'm just saying this because you're apparently very concerned about certain segment of Ukrainian population, of whom you're certain there are "many", without any evidence beyond a few pictures.

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

They like good relations with Russia in the same way a sheep in a pen wants good relations with a hungry bear stuck in the same pen. Trust no descision made with the treat of death (economic in this case) if you make the 'wrong' one.

Do you have evidence for that Putin's Russia has done this to Kazakhstan?

Which ones? Ireland is significantly mended, Spain, Portugal and Italy are on the mend, Cyprus has solved the banking issues. Growth in Eurozone has picked up. Please tell me who are these "many" countries who are going "belly up"?

The woes in Italy have just begun. They have a demographic crisis to attend to. Negative demographic growth will certainly slow down the growth of the Italian economy. Spain is experience tepid growth at best. It has a LONG way to go before we can be assured that the Spanish economy will not tumble into oblivion. As for the rest, I don't know. But slowed growth in Italy, little to no growth in Spain, and an extremely desperate Greece are enough to warrant genuine concern of adding another financially distressed country like Ukraine.

You're asserting, against good advice, Ukraine would be required to instantly adhere to all European regulation, without any investment coming the other way. In light of this you are not worthy of a response beyond pointing and laughing. So, there:
*point* Ha-ha!

McHrozni

I think I've failed to truly convey the situation in proper terms. If Eastern Ukraine were to become instantaneously poor from the systematic collapse of internal industry, what does it have to gain by joining the EU? Of course Western Ukraine has everything to gain. It's economy is in shambles. Heading west is an attractive and appealing decision, but in Eastern Ukraine, where jobs are plenty and the economy much stronger, there is little incentive to join the EU, especially if their entire industry will fail and make their half of the country poor. This only makes the Russia option more appealing to the financial establishment in Eastern Ukraine. Thus "Ha-Ha" is a poorly warranted response that comes from a lack of understanding of the stalemate game being waged in Ukraine right now.

In simple terms. If Ukraine joins the EU, Western Ukraine benefits tremendously as a corridor of goods and services from Western Europe to Russia. If Ukraine joins Russia, Eastern Ukraine benefits tremendously as a continued corridor of services passing from Russia to the EU. The fundamental interests of BOTH sides of Ukraine conflict with one another, hence why the country is so split about its fate.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Making a land grab of that sort does have a significant, non-trivial similarity to Nazis. I'm just saying this because you're apparently very concerned about certain segment of Ukrainian population, of whom you're certain there are "many", without any evidence beyond a few pictures.

McHrozni

And the communist also made a land grab during WWII. It was called the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Quit with your non-equivocal comparisons already.

 

[McHrozni]

Do you have evidence for that Putin's Russia has done this to Kazakhstan?

Given Russian actions in Ukraine, and given the geography, I feel safe asking what evidence is there that Kazakhstan has any choice in the matter. See bottom.

The woes in Italy have just begun. They have a demographic crisis to attend to. Negative demographic growth will certainly slow down the growth of the Italian economy. Spain is experience tepid growth at best. It has a LONG way to go before we can be assured that the Spanish economy will not tumble into oblivion. As for the rest, I don't know. But slowed growth in Italy, little to no growth in Spain, and an extremely desperate Greece are enough to warrant genuine concern of adding another financially distressed country like Ukraine.

In other words, you were engaged in a hypothetical hyperbole.

I think I've failed to truly convey the situation in proper terms. If Eastern Ukraine were to become instantaneously poor from the systematic collapse of internal industry, what does it have to gain by joining the EU? Of course Western Ukraine has everything to gain. It's economy is in shambles. Heading west is an attractive and appealing decision, but in Eastern Ukraine, where jobs are plenty and the economy much stronger, there is little incentive to join the EU, especially if their entire industry will fail and make their half of the country poor. This only makes the Russia option more appealing to the financial establishment in Eastern Ukraine. Thus "Ha-Ha" is a poorly warranted response that comes from a lack of understanding of the stalemate game being waged in Ukraine right now.

In simple terms. If Ukraine joins the EU, Western Ukraine benefits tremendously as a corridor of goods and services from Western Europe to Russia. If Ukraine joins Russia, Eastern Ukraine benefits tremendously as a continued corridor of services passing from Russia to the EU. The fundamental interests of BOTH sides of Ukraine conflict with one another, hence why the country is so split about its fate.

In other words, you keep to your view that the transformation would be instantaneous, that there would be no adjustment period, no investments into Ukraine, no nothing. It's no wonder your conclusions are patently false, you stick to wrong premises despite everything.

The only way eastern Ukraine could be any worse off is if Russia engages in economic sanctions over Ukraine desiring to join the EU. That does seem the be the case, hence my comment on Kazakhstan in the opening. It's extortion, plain and simple. The only way to address it is to turn away from the blackmailer for good. In the long run - but possibly quite quickly - eastern Ukraine would be better off as well. It's not like Russia will become a prosperous nation within our lifetimes, their political system depends on having a large segment of poor population that can be bought with social programs and propaganda.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

And the communist also made a land grab during WWII. It was called the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Quit with your non-equivocal comparisons already.

Yes, but no one brought up commies yet. Given that pro-Russian crowds protected Lenin statues in the east recently, I think it's a safe bet they're on Russian side in this.

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

Seems like well armed and well trained men have stormed government buildings in Crimea. Looks like southern and eastern Ukraine are headed elsewhere as previously mentioned.

ETA: I just want to point out that citizens in East Ukraine are doing EXACTLY what citizens were doing in West Ukraine. Let's see how many people support this or hypocritically disapprove.

 

[McHrozni]

Seems like well armed and well trained men have stormed government buildings in Crimea. Looks like southern and eastern Ukraine are headed elsewhere as previously mentioned.

I do wonder what Russia would do if that happened in one of it's own regions. Like in Chechnya. Hypocrysy much?

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

Given Russian actions in Ukraine, and given the geography, I feel safe asking what evidence is there that Kazakhstan has any choice in the matter. See bottom.

So you don't have evidence other than rhetoric. Noted

In other words, you were engaged in a hypothetical hyperbole.

What part of Italy's, Spain's, Greece's economies (in order from least to greatest) still suck don't you understand?

In other words, you keep to your view that the transformation would be instantaneous, that there would be no adjustment period, no investments into Ukraine, no nothing. It's no wonder your conclusions are patently false, you stick to wrong premises despite everything.

Is there evidence to suggest otherwise? It seemed like the agreements were going to be fixed in place quite hurriedly, and only by highly vocal concern from East Ukraine's elite did Ukraine stop to reconsider the promised EU package.

The only way eastern Ukraine could be any worse off is if Russia engages in economic sanctions over Ukraine desiring to join the EU. That does seem the be the case, hence my comment on Kazakhstan in the opening. It's extortion, plain and simple. The only way to address it is to turn away from the blackmailer for good. In the long run - but possibly quite quickly - eastern Ukraine would be better off as well. It's not like Russia will become a prosperous nation within our lifetimes, their political system depends on having a large segment of poor population that can be bought with social programs and propaganda.

McHrozni

The industry in East Ukraine would collapse. I really don't understand how else to explain it.

You're still willfully ignoring all the other cultural and historically factors about East Ukraine and Russia's relationship.

 

[McHrozni]

S
What part of Italy's, Spain's, Greece's economies (in order from least to greatest) still suck don't you understand?

The part where you went from "ARE GOING BELLY UP" to "still suck". It's called moving the goalposts.

Is there evidence to suggest otherwise?

Well, it would be a complete and total break from the way EU has ever worked, for one.

The industry in East Ukraine would collapse. I really don't understand how else to explain it.

If, and only if, Russia would start sanctioning Ukraine. In which case it is extortion which I covered above.

You're still willfully ignoring all the other cultural and historically factors about East Ukraine and Russia's relationship.

I'm not ignoraing anything, you just bring up falsehoods about economy. Eastern Ukraine has stronger historic ties to Russia and a larger proportion of ethnic Russians, what about it? It's not like Ukraine is the only country that is not homogenus culturally.

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

I can say one thing about Yanukovych though, he is extremely incompetent. By actively suppressing protestor rights he provoked this revolution. Although I don't support the new government, Yanukovych brought this on himself. If he was smart enough to sit tight and let the protesting peter out he'd still be in power now. Moscow should've backed someone with some more commonsense. I'll give it to anti-Yanukovych folks, the dude was stupid.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I'm not ignoraing anything, you just bring up falsehoods about economy. Eastern Ukraine has stronger historic ties to Russia and a larger proportion of ethnic Russians, what about it? It's not like Ukraine is the only country that is not homogenus culturally.
McHrozni

Did a bunch of pro-Russian activists take two government buildings yes or no?

 

[McHrozni]

Did a bunch of pro-Russian activists take two government buildings yes or no?

I'm not sure if that classification is sufficient. Dozens of gunmen - not bunch of activists - took two vital government buildings in Crimea and rose the Russian flag over them. What about it?

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

OK

 

[McHrozni]

OK

Any ETA on why do you think that event is relevant to the discussion? If not I'd be happy to have to moved to AAH for irrelevancy.

McHrozni