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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Then why did you ask Mondial if he agreed with David Cole/Stein that there was a Holocaust if you believe David Cole/Stein in fact said that there was not a Holocaust?

Because Mondail added the link to show that David Stein was still a denier but forgot to read his link first, which said the opposite.

In unrelated news, I see that Jerzy Ulicki-Rek the holocaust denier who has been spamming forums for the last three or so years was arrested in November for illegal weapons.



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...got-wrong-target/story-fni0cx12-1226771672735

POLICE found an "Aladdin's Cave" of illegal weapons when they seized more than 850 items ranging from 325 stun guns, masked as lip stick and mobile phones, to 218 knuckle dusters.

The Fairfield Proactive Crime Team and Bass Hill Region Enforcement Squad allegedly found $20,000 when they swooped on Jerzy Rek on Thursday near his Deveron St, St Andrews, home an hour after they found, what one investigator described as an "Aladdin's Cave" of illegal weaponry, at his Kerr Rd, Ingleburn, warehouse.

The 59-year-old is accused of selling the weapons, which included 67 gas-powered replica firearms, so realistic that one officer said if someone pulled it on him he would shoot them, 64 extendable batons, 39 sling shots and stun guns masked as women's shavers and iPhones.

Police said they also found 10 boxes of human growth hormone, four cans of capsicum spray and two firearm magazines.

Rek didn't apply bail for facing more than 20 charges at Campbelltown Local Court yesterday and will reappear on December 4.

One of the stun guns is believed to have been used by an alleged jewellery store thief to flee security in Bonnyrigg earlier this month.

Customs is investigating how Rek allegedly imported the weapons from Asia.
 
Because what David Cole/Stein does and what he says he does may be two different things. he did deny the Holocaust, that's how he got on TV and everyone said he was a weird creep. He also claims to have not denied the Holocaust, which is refuted by the words Matthew Ellard quoted.

It's not terribly unusual for deniers to make claims about their own arguments that are patently untrue, nor is it unusual for them to quote a source that seems to support one part of their belief that also contradicts another part of their belief, all while seeing no need to reconcile them.

Many people say that David Cole/Stein denies the Holocaust. David Cole/Stein says he does not deny the Holocaust. It's a semantic disagreement between different people who hold different definitions of the Holocaust. David Cole/Stein does not say that he denies the Holocaust and that he does not deny the Holocaust. There's no inconsistency there. People who say he does deny the Holocaust don't also say that he does not deny the Holocaust. They are not being inconsistent either. Matthew Ellard is the only person who has said that David Cole/Stein never denied the Holocaust and that he denies the Holocaust. He does not reconcile those two inconsistent beliefs and instead tries to change the subject.
 
Many people say that David Cole/Stein denies the Holocaust. David Cole/Stein says he does not deny the Holocaust. It's a semantic disagreement between different people who hold different definitions of the Holocaust. David Cole/Stein does not say that he denies the Holocaust and that he does not deny the Holocaust. There's no inconsistency there. People who say he does deny the Holocaust don't also say that he does not deny the Holocaust. They are not being inconsistent either. Matthew Ellard is the only person who has said that David Cole/Stein never denied the Holocaust and that he denies the Holocaust. He does not reconcile those two inconsistent beliefs and instead tries to change the subject.

Matthew's comments are not inconsistent, since he noted that David Cole has said he never denied the Holocaust, whereas Matthew believes that this recent statement is not sincere. Whether or not that belief is correct wouldn't necessarily make Matthew's remarks inconsistent.

The issue of sincerity is the crucial point both to Matthew's remarks and to the 'truth' of the matter. This is because in the early 1990s David Cole gave the impression that he was a card-carrying revisionist, appearing on TV shows with Bradley Smith, and making videos plus little essays which took a revisionist line. The small print is that Cole's 'questions' were posed as questions rather than as definitive statements, leaving him the very small 'out' that he may in fact never have actually come out and said 'there were no gas chambers', even though this was the common-sense inference of Cole's JAQ-off routine.

The gap between public statements and private beliefs, which is what Matthew noted, is precisely the problem here for revisionists, since Cole disassociated himself from the revisionist movement in 1998 before he disappeared and reinvented himself, and made various comments about gas chambers and the Holocaust which distanced himself from his apparent positions five years earlier. See here for his statement.

Ever since then, revisionists have been consoling themselves with the idea that Cole recanted only due to pressure and threats from the Jewish Defense League and was 'really' still one of them; in practice Cole was evidently busy being a Republican Party activist under a new name and also made videos about the Holocaust without any revisionist spin.

After David Stein was outed last year as David Cole, he was interviewed by The Guardian and said things which can be read in several ways, especially this quote: "The best guess is yes, there were gas chambers... But there is still a lot of murkiness about the camps. I haven't changed my views. But I regret I didn't have the facility with language that I have now. I was just a kid."

Thus in 2013 he confirmed what he said in 1998, which contradicts somewhat his apparent position in 1993, but in reality was probably consistent with the JAQ-off position he originally took.

At least some of his questions were actually answered, and this evidently led him to state in 1998 and 2013 that yes, gas chambers were used to kill Jews. It's worth noting that already by 1995, Cole was reacting badly to the dogmatism of hardcore Holocaust deniers like Robert Faurisson, who refused to accept that there was good evidence of the use of a gas chamber at Natzweiler-Struthof and conducted himself somewhat dishonestly when revisionists including Cole went on a 'field trip' there. See here for the details. (The irony with this is that it was Faurisson's attitude to Natzweiler that gave Jean-Claude Pressac, who at the time was leaning in a revisionist direction, the first warning signs that Faurisson was not operating in an honest fashion. So the 'movement' lost two activists in part because of the same issue.)

Therefore, quite what Cole believes has been obfuscated from both sides - revisionists want to reclaim him as 'one of them' whereas many commentators will focus on recent remarks like 'I haven't changed my views' and believe that Cole remains 'a denier', with both sides ignoring the fact that Cole said in 2013 the same thing he said in 1998, namely that he thought gas chambers were used in the Holocaust.

As for the ending of his career as a political activist, politics is largely about perception, rightly or wrongly. In other professions it wouldn't necessarily be an issue or would not get traction. Imagine if Stein/Cole had retrained as a teacher and it came out in the same way, a vengeful girlfriend. Obviously, that would be an act of spite, as it was in reality, but the vengeful girlfriend would find it difficult to persuade a school board to get Stein/Cole fired when this would conflict with First Amendment rights and likely involve complicated disciplinary hearings that Cole could easily have survived. In the event that the girlfriend tried to go to the local or national media and say 'hey, there's a schoolteacher here who used to pal around with deniers', then Stein/Cole could easily say forthrightly that his views had changed, and refer to the 1998 statement, meaning the fuss would be over. Because Stein/Cole was blogging and palling around with Hollywood stars, that made it news. Compared to finding out that Ron Paul employed staffers who wrote racist articles, this wasn't much of a political scandal, but it did end whatever utility Stein might have had for Republicans in California.
 
Hogan's Heroes

This 7 years of mirth and slapstick depiction of what went on behind the German lines during the "Holocaust" seems to prove that that the current agony of the Holocaust is a contrived sham/scam. If 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered in gas chambers and in other ways I'm sure this WWII war comedy would have seen the wrath of the survivors and the friends and relatives of the 6 million. If it hadn't been a trashed idea it would have been quickly canceled.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058812/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Heroes

Comedy after the alleged slaughter came as early as the 1953 Stalag 17.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046359/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_17
 
I support Dr Terry's explanation and view but want to add my "layman's opinion"

Many people say that David Cole/Stein denies the Holocaust. David Cole/Stein says he does not deny the Holocaust.

"I feel even more secure in my position as a Revisionist that there exists no convincing evidence that Jews or anyone else were taken EN MASSE into gas chambers and killed by the Nazis" David Cole 1992

It seems pretty clear that David Cole is denying the evidence and thus the holocaust in this 1992 quote. On his current web page where he is selling his book "Republican Party Animal" he says he never denied the holocaust. David Cole is simply lying so as to sell his book. He has a history of lying. He says so on the webpage flogging his book. What's new?

Matthew Ellard is the only person who has said that David Cole/Stein never denied the Holocaust and that he denies the Holocaust.
At different times Cole said different things. Didn't you grasp that?

Why don't you do a little research for us and find all the inconsistent quotes by David Cole and add the dates at the end of each quote. Post that information here. What trend do you notice concerning the dates? Would you conclude "Hey this bloke changes his tune according to where he is can make a buck" He is doing a "David Irving".

Have you actually read David Cole's webpage?
"His (David Cole's) dad was the doctor who killed Elvis Elvis's doctor was Dr George Nichopoulos. "he had a $25,000 bounty put on his head by a terrorist group" and the evidence that the JDL did this is where? "he ( David Cole) faked his death by pretending to drown off the coast of San Diego" He didn't fake anything. He name was already Stein. He simply stopped using the name Cole.
 
This 7 years of mirth and slapstick depiction of what went on behind the German lines during the "Holocaust" seems to prove that that the current agony of the Holocaust is a contrived sham/scam. If 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered in gas chambers and in other ways I'm sure this WWII war comedy would have seen the wrath of the survivors and the friends and relatives of the 6 million. If it hadn't been a trashed idea it would have been quickly canceled.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058812/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Heroes

Comedy after the alleged slaughter came as early as the 1953 Stalag 17.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046359/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_17

Neither of those shows depicted life in a Concentration Camp - both were set in Luftwaffe run POW camps. And of the two, only Hogan's Heroes could be classified as a comedy.

If you're thinking to Stalag 17 is a comedy you obviously haven't read up on either the play or movie.
 
Neither of those shows depicted life in a Concentration Camp - both were set in Luftwaffe run POW camps. And of the two, only Hogan's Heroes could be classified as a comedy.

If you're thinking to Stalag 17 is a comedy you obviously haven't read up on either the play or movie.

Stalag 17? No comedy? Read the links.

Over 60 years after WWII any hint of anything that doesn't vilify Germans is Nazi loving.

Yet, less than 20 years after WWII, the Nazis were depicted as
kinda lovable, ineffectual half-wits.

The rage over an actual final solution attempt would have never taken COMEDY breaks.
 
This 7 years of mirth and slapstick depiction of what went on behind the German lines during the "Holocaust" seems to prove that that the current agony of the Holocaust is a contrived sham/scam. If 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered in gas chambers and in other ways I'm sure this WWII war comedy would have seen the wrath of the survivors and the friends and relatives of the 6 million. If it hadn't been a trashed idea it would have been quickly canceled.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058812/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogan's_Heroes

Comedy after the alleged slaughter came as early as the 1953 Stalag 17.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046359/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_17

Mel Brooks has a bee in his bonnet about the Holocaust, and he created a parodic rap song about it. In fact, he served in WW2, and was making fun of Nazis during the war, by broadcasting a Jewish musician at them in response to their broadcasts of facist propaganda at the Allies. And he used to defuse mines.

This is a man who literally put his life on the line to fight Nazis, and he still mocks them. He says he's doing it specifically to prevent their ideas from being taken seriously ever again.

People joke about a lot of things. Rape, murder, war, loss of limbs, disease, even other attempted genocides and ethnic cleansing. That doesn't mean that they didn't happen.

Also, please stop trying to end run around the evidence that shows the Holocaust happened by saying the reaction of the Jews was "wrong" in some way, especially when you have repeatedly refused to compare it to other examples of genocide. Heck, WW2 killed 60 million people, yet there were plenty of folks making jokes about it both during and after the war. Lots of them were the people actually fighting the war.
 
Matthew's comments are not inconsistent, since he noted that David Cole has said he never denied the Holocaust, whereas Matthew believes that this recent statement is not sincere. Whether or not that belief is correct wouldn't necessarily make Matthew's remarks inconsistent.

The issue of sincerity is the crucial point both to Matthew's remarks and to the 'truth' of the matter. This is because in the early 1990s David Cole gave the impression that he was a card-carrying revisionist, appearing on TV shows with Bradley Smith, and making videos plus little essays which took a revisionist line. The small print is that Cole's 'questions' were posed as questions rather than as definitive statements, leaving him the very small 'out' that he may in fact never have actually come out and said 'there were no gas chambers', even though this was the common-sense inference of Cole's JAQ-off routine.

The gap between public statements and private beliefs, which is what Matthew noted, is precisely the problem here for revisionists, since Cole disassociated himself from the revisionist movement in 1998 before he disappeared and reinvented himself, and made various comments about gas chambers and the Holocaust which distanced himself from his apparent positions five years earlier. See here for his statement.

Ever since then, revisionists have been consoling themselves with the idea that Cole recanted only due to pressure and threats from the Jewish Defense League and was 'really' still one of them; in practice Cole was evidently busy being a Republican Party activist under a new name and also made videos about the Holocaust without any revisionist spin.

After David Stein was outed last year as David Cole, he was interviewed by The Guardian and said things which can be read in several ways, especially this quote: "The best guess is yes, there were gas chambers... But there is still a lot of murkiness about the camps. I haven't changed my views. But I regret I didn't have the facility with language that I have now. I was just a kid."

Thus in 2013 he confirmed what he said in 1998, which contradicts somewhat his apparent position in 1993, but in reality was probably consistent with the JAQ-off position he originally took.

At least some of his questions were actually answered, and this evidently led him to state in 1998 and 2013 that yes, gas chambers were used to kill Jews. It's worth noting that already by 1995, Cole was reacting badly to the dogmatism of hardcore Holocaust deniers like Robert Faurisson, who refused to accept that there was good evidence of the use of a gas chamber at Natzweiler-Struthof and conducted himself somewhat dishonestly when revisionists including Cole went on a 'field trip' there. See here for the details. (The irony with this is that it was Faurisson's attitude to Natzweiler that gave Jean-Claude Pressac, who at the time was leaning in a revisionist direction, the first warning signs that Faurisson was not operating in an honest fashion. So the 'movement' lost two activists in part because of the same issue.)

Therefore, quite what Cole believes has been obfuscated from both sides - revisionists want to reclaim him as 'one of them' whereas many commentators will focus on recent remarks like 'I haven't changed my views' and believe that Cole remains 'a denier', with both sides ignoring the fact that Cole said in 2013 the same thing he said in 1998, namely that he thought gas chambers were used in the Holocaust.

As for the ending of his career as a political activist, politics is largely about perception, rightly or wrongly. In other professions it wouldn't necessarily be an issue or would not get traction. Imagine if Stein/Cole had retrained as a teacher and it came out in the same way, a vengeful girlfriend. Obviously, that would be an act of spite, as it was in reality, but the vengeful girlfriend would find it difficult to persuade a school board to get Stein/Cole fired when this would conflict with First Amendment rights and likely involve complicated disciplinary hearings that Cole could easily have survived. In the event that the girlfriend tried to go to the local or national media and say 'hey, there's a schoolteacher here who used to pal around with deniers', then Stein/Cole could easily say forthrightly that his views had changed, and refer to the 1998 statement, meaning the fuss would be over. Because Stein/Cole was blogging and palling around with Hollywood stars, that made it news. Compared to finding out that Ron Paul employed staffers who wrote racist articles, this wasn't much of a political scandal, but it did end whatever utility Stein might have had for Republicans in California.


If
I see. So do you now agree with David Stein that there was a holocaust or did you forget to read the link first?
and
Of course he denied the holocaust. You can read all his early holocaust denial quotes in the internet. Didn't you look first?
are not contradictory then I don't understand contradictions.

I do understand what Matthew Ellard is trying to say and do. But he's doing it in a way that sounds contradictory, arrogant, and unpersuasive.
 
I do understand what Matthew Ellard is trying to say and do. But he's doing it in a way that sounds contradictory, arrogant, and unpersuasive.
How am I trying to persuade you about anything? David Stein denied the holocaust and then, to sell his book for profit, lied and claimed he never denied the holocaust. I simply pointed that out. I quoted other lies from the same David Stein webpage. The man is a liar.

Don't you think it is actually David Stein who is being arrogant?

Mondail, the holocaust denier, posted a link to Stein's website and said
"David Cole is now more determined than ever before to present his case as to why he became a holocaust revisionist"

but Stein's webpage says the opposite. David Stein says he never denied the holocaust. Captain Howdy? Can you show me anywhere on the page where David Stein presents his case of why he became a revisionist? Why aren't you telling Mondail, the holocaust denier, that his post was contradictory? Please explain?
 
If and are not contradictory then I don't understand contradictions.

I do understand what Matthew Ellard is trying to say and do. But he's doing it in a way that sounds contradictory, arrogant, and unpersuasive.

The topic under discussion was first and foremost David Cole, not Matthew Ellard. It's deeply uninteresting to see discussion dragged down to the level of a tone troll, especially when the apparent contradictions have been clarified by at least three posters.
 
Stalag 17? No comedy? Read the links.

Wikipedia said:
Prisoners of War Manfredi and Johnson try to escape through a tunnel the inmates have dug under the barbed wire. They are immediately shot by waiting prison guards when they emerge outside the fence.
...
Sefton tells the men it is foolish to try to escape. He is not seeking "fruit salad" (a common World War Two term for the colorful ribbons.) He continues, "what if you escape, make it back to the United States, they ship you to the Pacific, you're shot down again, this time you're in a Japanese Prison camp."
...
The men give Sefton enough time to get Dunbar out of his hiding place (the water tower above one of the camp latrines) then throw Price out into the yard with tin cans tied to his legs. The ruse works: Price is killed in a hail of bullets (to the later consternation of von Scherbach and Schulz) by camp guards who believe him to be Dunbar or one of the other prisoners, creating a distraction that allows Sefton and Dunbar to cut through the barbed wire and make their escape.

Yeah, that's a laff riot.

Of course, as BR already pointed out, neither film is about a concentration camp. Which you ignored.

If and are not contradictory then I don't understand contradictions.

I do understand what Matthew Ellard is trying to say and do. But he's doing it in a way that sounds contradictory, arrogant, and unpersuasive.

...How can you tell that if you can't tell what he's trying to say?

At different times Cole said different things. Didn't you grasp that?

Why don't you do a little research for us and find all the inconsistent quotes by David Cole and add the dates at the end of each quote. Post that information here. What trend do you notice concerning the dates? Would you conclude "Hey this bloke changes his tune according to where he is can make a buck" He is doing a "David Irving".

Seems pretty clear to me.
 
The rage over an actual final solution attempt would have never taken COMEDY breaks.

I find it really amazing that someone is actually presenting fiction as some kind of proof of preceding historical events. It's the sort of thing that makes me doubt the ernesty of your arguments.
 
This 7 years of mirth and slapstick depiction of what went on behind the German lines during the "Holocaust" seems to prove that that the current agony of the Holocaust is a contrived sham/scam. If 6 million Jewish people were slaughtered in gas chambers and in other ways I'm sure this WWII war comedy would have seen the wrath of the survivors and the friends and relatives of the 6 million. If it hadn't been a trashed idea it would have been quickly canceled.

Comedy after the alleged slaughter came as early as the 1953 Stalag 17.
I am not sure there is any direct proof that if the events of the Holocaust were terrible that no comedic films or television would be made about German prison camps in WWII, so I am not sure what you mean by this post.

That's basically arguing:

1) If the Holocaust was not so bad, then there would be comedies made soon after the war
2) "Comedies" were made soon after the war
3) Therefore, the Holocaust was not so bad

For one thing you are ignoring other possibilities, such as the creators had some pro-German sympathies and were deliberately trying to white-wash some aspect of the German military during the war? Or they were influenced by the current state of the Cold War in which the Germans (West Germany) were our allies against the Soviet and Eastern Bloc threats, as most recently demonstrated by the war in Korea, and it was seen as acceptable to portray them in a better light.
 
The topic under discussion was first and foremost David Cole, not Matthew Ellard. It's deeply uninteresting to see discussion dragged down to the level of a tone troll, especially when the apparent contradictions have been clarified by at least three posters.

Quoting from a story about David Stein that said David Stein never denied the Holocaust (with bold-faced type for emphasis) and saying that, of course, David Stein denied the Holocaust is contradictory. Matthew and his supprters have tried to justify these contradictory statements by pointing out that David Stein lies about what he says and that it's not unusual for revisionists in general to make contradictory statements. However, nobody has attempted to explain why the contradictory statements are not contradictory.

I have merely pointed out that "my opponent makes contradictory statements so I can too" doesn't make for a persuasive argument. But if a participant in an online discussion isn't trying to persuasively argue their position then I guess it doesn't matter very much.
 
Quoting from a story about David Stein that said David Stein never denied the Holocaust (with bold-faced type for emphasis) and saying that, of course, David Stein denied the Holocaust is contradictory.
I can see that you are confused. Let me try again.

David Stein, in 1992 denied the holocaust in his own words.

In 2014, David Stein is trying to sell his book and tells a lie, by saying he never denied the Holocaust. It is David Stein who is lying.

Do you have any evidence that says David Stein is not lying in 2014?
 
Quoting from a story about David Stein that said David Stein never denied the Holocaust (with bold-faced type for emphasis) and saying that, of course, David Stein denied the Holocaust is contradictory. Matthew and his supprters have tried to justify these contradictory statements by pointing out that David Stein lies about what he says and that it's not unusual for revisionists in general to make contradictory statements. However, nobody has attempted to explain why the contradictory statements are not contradictory.

I have merely pointed out that "my opponent makes contradictory statements so I can too" doesn't make for a persuasive argument. But if a participant in an online discussion isn't trying to persuasively argue their position then I guess it doesn't matter very much.

Actually, all this started because Matthew Ellard asked Mondial a question which remains unanswered, because Mondial doesn't check in very often. You then chimed in to ask Matthew a question which he answered in turn.

Mondial is a self-confessed Holocaust revisionist, therefore Matthew played on the contradiction in Cole's position by asking Mondial whether he agreed with Cole in 2013/2014. He then answered your question with the truth of the matter.

The contradictions you're conjuring up stem from the fact that you're conflating two lines of conversation.
 
I find it really amazing that someone is actually presenting fiction as some kind of proof of preceding historical events. It's the sort of thing that makes me doubt the ernesty of your arguments.

Then why were the Nazis presented as buffoons, in any setting, instead of vicious killers?
 
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