Syria and UN Security Council Decision

[Caustic Logic]

That reads about as specific and understandable as a Nostradamus quatrain, CE.

It was a bit muddled. Let me make sure even I've got it. Re=phrased:

It'll be funny as hell when even John Kerry - whose face I utterly detest - finally understands that nobody believes his and his the propaganda machine's heedless crap flinging.

And then there was a question with the answer no, he wouldn't make much of a liar if he realized or thought the lies were no longer believable. That'd just be dumb. He lies with little care because he realizes they will be bought/close enough/doesn't matter/everyone hates Assad/we do what we want, pretty much.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Interesting story, vis Global Research, or Press TV via them, but first from a Jordanian source I don't know about, JBC. Apparently not state-run or anything.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-israel-plan-to-occupy-south-syria-report/5367494



Maybe not exacly true, but sounds like the kind of thing that has been proposed and that some people here, John McCain, etc. have rooted for. True or not, sounds promising, a renewed multinational forces "security belt" plan. Might finally turn back the entire Syrian military, its NDF and other allies, city police forces, its civilian supporters, etc. AND the non-moderate rebels (FSA IF, some other FSA, al-Nusra (AQ good cop) and ISIS (AQ bad cop, go al-Nusra!). Yes probably so!

But just in case they turn on us and go Jihadist as soon as they hit the field, and it's happened before, I recommend a backup plan. We should create another yet more moderate faction to keep the security belt people in check. This can be staffed by an even larger number of even more imaginary pure Syrian moderates, maybe ones with friggin laser eyes.

How can this be "not exactly true" (which is the understatement of the year) and interesting at the same time?

To be pedantic, I accept that fiction like, say, the blade itself, can be interesting, but I do not assume that this is what you meant.

 

[Caustic Logic]

How can this be "not exactly true" (which is the understatement of the year) and interesting at the same time?

To be pedantic, I accept that fiction like, say, the blade itself, can be interesting, but I do not assume that this is what you meant.

If Lindsay Graham and some Europeans and Israelis and Syrian exiles proposed a plan just like that, and people have proposed plans like that, you'd root for it, right? It's a general class of supposed solutions that the article reminded me of, and spurred that little riff there.

The Zaatari camp people are a good follow-up. If we wind up arming Abu Annas' people and it turns into a bloodbath in their turf, we can fall back on the ones who had wanted to stop the massacres. And then they can fight for a while, as JAN and ISIS form a new alliance, and yadda yadda. 2011-when?

 

[Doctor Evil]

If Lindsay Graham and some Europeans and Israelis and Syrian exiles proposed a plan just like that, and people have proposed plans like that, you'd root for it, right? It's a general class of supposed solutions that the article reminded me of, and spurred that little riff there.

The Zaatari camp people are a good follow-up. If we wind up arming Abu Annas' people and it turns into a bloodbath in their turf, we can fall back on the ones who had wanted to stop the massacres. And then they can fight for a while, as JAN and ISIS form a new alliance, and yadda yadda. 2011-when?

I do not know if I would support it. It all depends on the details. If it is possible to have the more reasonable factions of anti government rebels to control and protect parts of Syria from the current civil war in which the two sides already massacre each other and the civilians in between then I would think that this would be a positive development. At least compared to the current situation.

What you are seem to imply, as far as I could gather from your response, is: i) that it is certain that any faction with the means would immediately go ahead and kill civilians as revenge, ii) that there is a concrete plan to do so, and iii) and that somehow it involves cooperation between unlikely counterparts such as Syrian factions and Israel over that. Any evidence for that? Because I seriously doubt those assumptions.

BTW why choose Israel and not Turkey? The latter is much more affected by the civil war in Syria, and as a result is much more involved in what happens there.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The latter is much more affected by the civil war in Syria, and as a result is much more involved in what happens there.

What as a result of what now?

But yeah, the Israel aspect of that story is clearly the stumbling block. Otherwise though it's much as people have proposed over and over and it keeps not being able to happen.

What I poposed was stuff all too likely to happen, not sure to.

I support some belated respect for the Syrian government, and until*that's possible, a re-appraisal of the moral record on which the world decided Syria'ss government had to be overhtrown at all costs. I've selected the Houla Massacre as the point we need to re-assess first. So, northing personal, but my bits to add to this thread have run out and I need to get back to waiting for responses in that thread.

 

[Doctor Evil]

What as a result of what now?

After all the time you spent here discussing this subject you still need to ask this?

In short, it all has to do with the fact that Turkey is Sunni, as are the majority of factions fighting the Ba'ath. As a result there a fair number of refugees from Syria fled to Turkey. The official position of Turkey is that Assad has to go, and it has been argued that Turkey extends material support to factions fighting against the government. There have also been several incidents of fire along the Turkey Syrian border. Is any of this news to you?

I support some belated respect for the Syrian government, and until*that's possible, a re-appraisal of the moral record on which the world decided Syria'ss government had to be overhtrown at all costs. I've selected the Houla Massacre as the point we need to re-assess first. So, northing personal, but my bits to add to this thread have run out and I need to get back to waiting for responses in that thread.

Considering that even before the current civil war the government of Syria ran as a police state, and that they massacred their own civilians I have no respect for them. We will have to disagree here.

 

[HoverBoarder]

CIA, etc. Unwitting dupes? Co-conspirators? Accidental allies?

You have no idea, do you?

Mmmm, nothing like the smell of Conspiracy Theories in the morning.

 

[HoverBoarder]

That sounds pretty good. Do you support new sanctions on Iran for supportin alQaeda in Syria? Do you think that's more effective than addressing the Sunni sponsors? How big of a role do you think Iran has in getting AQ there? Is it totally, mostly, or only partly an Iranian Shi'ite terrorist plot?

I get the idea of course, to make the rebels look bad and give Iran/Assad/Hezbollah etc. a heroic role turning it back. Just wondering how much of of a role is played by the help they get in that from government and un-punished people in KSA, Qatar, Jordan, Turkey, Libya, the extremist networks in Iraq and Lebanon, Muslim Brotherhood, CIA, etc. Unwitting dupes? Co-conspirators? Accidental allies?

You have no idea, do you?

Iran just wants more power, especially when it comes to their power struggle with Saudi Arabia. That desire for power is not unique in the world, nor does it need any grand secret plan.

The problem all lies with what they have decided is acceptable in achieving their goals. The large scale killing of the Syrian people, especially the large scale killing of civilians has created a vacuum and a magnet for terrorism on all sides to come to Syria.

The reason why it is absolutely essential in pressuring Iran (and Russia) for a solution is that their actions, and unquestioning support for Assad's internationally illegal war crime actions is one of the primary, if not the most primary reason why there is a Syria conflict, and AQ in Syria in the first place.

The conflict started because Assad couldn't stop his forces from torturing and killing civilians protesting against his dictatorship. The conflict escalated because his allies refused to confront him on his war crimes. The impunity for Assad to commit war crimes created a vacuum that brought in AQ, and Assad's continued use of terrorist tactics creates a magnet for terrorists on all sides of the sectarian fight to come to Syria.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I support some belated respect for the Syrian government, and until*that's possible, a re-appraisal of the moral record on which the world decided Syria'ss government had to be overhtrown at all costs. I've selected the Houla Massacre as the point we need to re-assess first. So, northing personal, but my bits to add to this thread have run out..

What about mass war crimes by the Assad regime? Especially all of the ones with hard evidence?

Tell me for each of the following war crimes, why you have decided to ignore them, and why you think the international community should ignore them and instead give Assad "belated respect:"

1) Breadline bombings

2) Cleansing and destroying full neighborhoods:
Syria wiping neighborhoods off the map to punish residents – rights group - Report contains satellite imagery showing seven areas that have been largely or completely destroyed
This is really a story where the aerial photos show direct evidence of Assad war crimes.
Full 38 page report "Razed to the Ground: Syria’s Unlawful Neighborhood Demolitions in 2012-2013"

3) Deliberate bombings of civilians Including the full 80 page report “Death from the Skies: Deliberate and Indiscriminate Air Strikes on Civilians”


4) Deliberate targeting of civilians and children by regime snipers in Aleppo. While this has occurred in many other cities, the part that makes this case unique is that because of the location, a rebel held intersection used by civilians that is only receiving fire from a government held area, that it is impossible to blame these killings on the rebels. There is no feasible option that they would be able to sneak in that large of a number of snipers into regime held territory for weeks and years at a time, and fire on civilians every day. It is in other words, one of the direct evidences of Assad forces committing war crimes that cannot be blamed on anyone else. Given how interested you were in one kids death from a sniper, I thought that you would at least consider a case where hundreds of kids are being deliberately shot by snipers...

Aleppo: A city where snipers shoot children

Bustan al-Qasr is the last remaining crossing point between the rebel and regime-held sides of Aleppo. Snipers are rife and the atmosphere tense, yet hundreds are forced to use it every day to get to work, to study and buy food.

"Today, at about midday, I treated someone who had been shot in the arm," Sam tells me. "He was a child, they usually are. I think that the snipers are aiming for kids, just kids."

Sam, crouching behind sandbags at the Bustan al-Qasr crossing point, is the only doctor on hand to treat those targeted by the snipers.

"On average I treat about 10 people a day, every single day, but Fridays are always the worst," he says. "Yesterday about 30 people were shot here..."

On a corner where the main street meets a side road he points to the buildings where the snipers are stationed, in a government-owned tower block, in an apartment building, in a minaret.

"There are 72 snipers aiming towards us," he says. "And they only ever shoot at civilians."
...Because however chaotic, however deadly, Bustan al-Qasr is a lifeline.

It is the last artery connecting a divided city and the only choice for many people.

5) Mass detention and torture/killing of detainees.

 

[trustbutverify]

What about mass war crimes by the Assad regime? Especially all of the ones with hard evidence?

Tell me for each of the following war crimes, why you have decided to ignore them, and why you think the international community should ignore them and instead give Assad "belated respect:"

Because the same robotic dupes who admire any brute currently classified as "anti-imperialist" by the likes of PressTV, dole out their support based on dogmatic political criteria having absolutely nothing to do with ethical or humanitarian considerations? Because if Assad had happened to have been an American ally, these same dupes would now be denying Islamic rebel atrocities?

 

[HoverBoarder]

Because the same robotic dupes who admire any brute currently classified as "anti-imperialist" by the likes of PressTV, dole out their support based on dogmatic political criteria having absolutely nothing to do with ethical or humanitarian considerations? Because if Assad had happened to have been an American ally, these same dupes would now be denying Islamic rebel atrocities?

Yeah, sometimes it is scary to see how well propaganda works on some people. For them, it's not about who it is specifically, or what they have done, or what evidence there is about their actions. The only thing that matters is whose side they are on.

Three years of running an Assad fan club site, and never once seriously considering the thousands of pieces of evidence about his war crimes shows that facts and reality are not really important to them.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Sometimes it is scary to see how well propaganda works on some people, the same robotic dupes who verify nothing, trust what the news says, and admire any brute currently classified as "anti-dictator"

What about mass war crimes by the Assad regime? Especially all of the ones with hard evidence?

Like the Houla Massacre? I'll tell you about that one, and already have, in the other thread.

For good measure, since you went to the hassle of a point-by-point list, I'll spend more time than I should offering answers you'll ignore.

Tell me for each of the following war crimes, why you have decided to ignore them,

False premise question. The ones I haven't covered yet is not from a decision to ignore, but from constraints on time that force me to proritize.

and why you think the international community should <s>ignore them and</s> instead give Assad "belated respect:"

Because IMO justice and peace are based on truth, not on upholding cherished myths we, as a culture, have talked ourselves irreversibly into. We've made that the basis for 3 years and absolute minimum 140,000 have died on all sides (I suspect it's really around 200,000)

1) Breadline bombings

You'd need to go case-by0-case, ideally. But I looked at the Halfaya bakery bombing.No proof there was a bakery, despite some flatbread, about a box's worth, and an empty box the right size. So it's food delivery, run by al-Nusra. I don't know who fired those mortar shells, but the angle of impact seems steep, suggesting nearbt, when all nearby areas were rebel-held. On the flip-side, there were very few civilians to blame Assad, and mostly rebel fighters seem to have been killed.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Halfaya_Bakery_Bombing

A lot of these happen in Aleppo, where it's well-known the rebels had imposed a strict food embargo on the loyalist areas. The bombing of bread lines and the sniper-shooting of people crossing over to get food, both play into the rebel strategy. And in general, just having something like the bombing of a bread queue to blame on Assad is reason enough for rebels to do it, as they did in Bosnia.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Siege_of_Aleppo

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Karaj_al-Hajez
See the Channel 4 video there and please try to pay attention to the context of what it shows.

2) Cleansing and destroying full neighborhoods:
Syria wiping neighborhoods off the map to punish residents – rights group - Report contains satellite imagery showing seven areas that have been largely or completely destroyed
This is really a story where the aerial photos show direct evidence of Assad war crimes.
Full 38 page report "Razed to the Ground: Syria’s Unlawful Neighborhood Demolitions in 2012-2013"

No detailed study of the specific claims, bt I've heard these are areas where everything was ruined by fughting, after rebels dug themselves into civilian neighborhoods with foreign-supplied weapons, fighters, and political cover, and had to be pounded out. Should all re-building be done one building at a time? Or is it still legal to clear a whole area and start over? What proof did anyone provide this is not the explanation? Activists saying the house was fine and 'the regime' forced them out, and stomped on the koran along the way? Possible, not proven. Words are just that, and in this conflict, even less so.

3) Deliberate bombings of civilians Including the full 80 page report “Death from the Skies: Deliberate and Indiscriminate Air Strikes on Civilians”

No, I haven't and I'm not going through this 80-page report. You haven't either and you know that. In trade, I won't make you look at the pictures I just documented of three women killed, just a few miles north of Ma'an during the Feb. 9 massacre there, fleeing on a bus when the regime shelled it, they say. Rebels were closest at the time and scooped up the bodies (and the survivors, I presume - some 80 civilians are missing, authorities say) and one woman has a head sliced in half with a sword. So there, a shelling of civilians case you didn't even ask about, and an answer you can double check if you want.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Maan_Massacre,_2014#Al-Taman.27ah_Bus_Victims

4) Deliberate targeting of civilians and children by regime snipers in Aleppo. While this has occurred in many other cities, the part that makes this case unique is that because of the location, a rebel held intersection used by civilians that is only receiving fire from a government held area, that it is impossible to blame these killings on the rebels. There is no feasible option that they would be able to sneak in that large of a number of snipers into regime held territory for weeks and years at a time, and fire on civilians every day. It is in other words, one of the direct evidences of Assad forces committing war crimes that cannot be blamed on anyone else. Given how interested you were in one kids death from a sniper, I thought that you would at least consider a case where hundreds of kids are being deliberately shot by snipers...

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Unseen_Snipers_in_the_Syrian_Conflict

And see the Karaj page, linked above. You say "a rebel held intersection used by civilians that is only receiving fire from a government held area" I have noot seen any of the fire yet, or figured out how to trace where it's coming from. I'm curious how you managed that? By believing the reports that just flat out say "regime snipers," without the slightest evidence?

5) Mass detention and torture/killing of detainees.

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Torture_Photos_from_"Caesar"

stub page:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Category_talk:Prisoners

There are a bunch of difficult questions I could ask you back about some truly horrific rebel crimes - like the Houla Massacre - we as a culture let them just fob off at will. But time still ticks. I'll just leave it to the ones I've already asked the whole community in the Houla thread. It could be said you owe me an answer, and even a fair and considered one, and in the right spot. But hey, I've got no power to collect even if so.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It could be said you owe me an answer, and even a fair and considered one, and in the right spot. But hey, I've got no power to collect even if so.

I predict it will just be back to square one like always with these types.

Hey HB, as your list of horror stories comes to a great extent from one source, HRW, are you aware that their publications about the trajectories of the rockets allegedly uses by "Assad" to deliver CW to "kill his own people" in Ghouta - pointing to a prominent military installation - have turned out to be total hogwash? And are you aware that the final Sellström report concludes that there have indeed been cases of the use of CW - against civilians and Syrian Army soldiers? No? It's upthread. Read it.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Okay, one counter-question, for Hover Boarder or anyone.

You have surely seen the images of babies and elderly people who starved to death in the Yarmouk Palestinian Camp, and elsewhere. This is blamed on the army siege, and there does seem to have been one, as well as a real food crisis. But can you take a look at this combination of reports, images, and common sense, and see the disconnect?

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Yarmouk_Camp#How_Bad_is_it.3F
And there are things I thought I added that aren't there. Hm. Should be better in 15 minutes.

There's a real face of hunger there that's way different from this amped-up one people keep showing us (in the Responsibility to Shock corollary of the disastrous "responsibility to Protect" doctrine). The problem there is a gross defect of the social fabric within rebel-held areas, probably related to the balance of people with guns favoring some nasty cats. They've proven unable (or unwilling?) to get any food to these few bodies when alive. But they can always get their starved bodies into their failed charity clinics and on Youtube propaganda videos, blaming Assad.

But, and this is the question, how is the regime's blockade to blame for that?

 

[HoverBoarder]

Okay, one counter-question, for Hover Boarder or anyone.

You have surely seen the images of babies and elderly people who starved to death in the Yarmouk Palestinian Camp, and elsewhere. This is blamed on the army siege, and there does seem to have been one, as well as a real food crisis. But can you take a look at this combination of reports, images, and common sense, and see the disconnect?

http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Yarmouk_Camp#How_Bad_is_it.3F
And there are things I thought I added that aren't there. Hm. Should be better in 15 minutes.

There's a real face of hunger there that's way different from this amped-up one people keep showing us (in the Responsibility to Shock corollary of the disastrous "responsibility to Protect" doctrine). The problem there is a gross defect of the social fabric within rebel-held areas, probably related to the balance of people with guns favoring some nasty cats. They've proven unable (or unwilling?) to get any food to these few bodies when alive. But they can always get their starved bodies into their failed charity clinics and on Youtube propaganda videos, blaming Assad.

But, and this is the question, how is the regime's blockade to blame for that?

So there is not enough food being allowed in to feed the people there, largely due to widespread starvation tactic by Assad, and you blame the survivors?

Even if everyone in all of the starved cities had the exact same amount to eat, you would still have starvation.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I predict it will just be back to square one like always with these types.

Hey HB, as your list of horror stories comes to a great extent from one source, HRW, are you aware that their publications about the trajectories of the rockets allegedly uses by "Assad" to deliver CW to "kill his own people" in Ghouta - pointing to a prominent military installation - have turned out to be total hogwash? And are you aware that the final Sellström report concludes that there have indeed been cases of the use of CW - against civilians and Syrian Army soldiers? No? It's upthread. Read it.

Yeah, I read your 'link' awhile back. It appeared almost entirely based on what he wanted to happen so it must be fact, and not on actual facts. You still have the vast amount of evidence pointing towards an attack carried out and ordered by Maher and the 4th Division.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I also suggest HRW as a source due to their enormous attention to detail, and very well laid out fact based reporting. The main complaint of them as a source is that their reports are too detailed and long to read.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Yeah, I read your 'link' awhile back. It appeared almost entirely based on what he wanted to happen so it must be fact, and not on actual facts. You still have the vast amount of evidence pointing towards an attack carried out and ordered by Maher and the 4th Division.

You obviously didn't read anything as you have no idea what I'm talking about, evidenced by your reference to "Maher and the 4th division". That was what turned out to be hogwash. You can try yourself at challenging the state of research (or educate yourself) over here. Good luck.

 

[Caustic Logic]

So there is not enough food being allowed in to feed the people there, largely due to widespread starvation tactic by Assad, and you blame the survivors?

Even if everyone in all of the starved cities had the exact same amount to eat, you would still have starvation.

Yes I blame the survivors, holding the dead, with whom they didn't share their food, but whose preventable (by them) death they freely exploit to blame Assad.

You didn't answer HOW the regime is to blame for this failure to share with the victims. There is no human decency embargo I'm aware of.

Why don't you go ahead and again display your total non-comprehension of this basic point with another dodge?

 

[Caustic Logic]

You obviously didn't read anything as you have no idea what I'm talking about, evidenced by your reference to "Maher and the 4th division". That was what turned out to be hogwash. You can try yourself at challenging the state of research (or educate yourself) over here. Good luck.

Ah, I didn't see you sneak in. So we're both wasting time here? Hope it's not too much. Why is that diagnosis so familiar? And the square one comment - indeed, some people insist there's no other square at all. I'm not allowed to make smart-ass comments incorporating floating, evasive weiner dogs, but man is it a tempting thing... or am I? Your avatar-based nickname for Virus has stuck ...