Syria and UN Security Council Decision

[magellan]

She presented some(weak) evidence that supported Henry McPhee's claim. You should have done that.



Earlier you made a big deal about knowing the definition of "legitimate".

It means legal. Note the "leg" at the beginning of both words, same root.

Wrong.
A government is a body that makes the rules, interprets them and executes them. All governments are legal. Syria as well as the IS and Donbas and Ukraine. Even if you form a government while breaking a rule you will later just rewrite the rule or reinterpret it. (As happened in Ukraine)

Legitimacy is something else.

Bashir al-Assad inhereted the presidency from his father. This illegal but not unexpected seizure of power was "legitimized" by an election rigged in that they only allowed one candidate.

How was it illegal? Against what laws? You keep saying inherited but that's not what happened. Hafed al Assad didn't leave a will, giving the presidency to his son.

Ignoring the obvious rigging of an election doesn't make the issue go away, it only makes you look disingenuous. If you want to pretend there is nothing unusual about results that one sided in a nation that fractured (even before the civil war) go on, but the rest of us don't need to pretend stupidity.

You should read up on the process. It's the same way Merkel got 95% last February in Stralsund. I guess that was obviously rigged too?

Some people support Assad because of his closeness to Putin. They believe Putin will be able to prop up Assad, prevent the formation of a Kurdish state which would likely be friendly to the United States. A state that could someday host a US military base uncomfortably close to Iran, Syria, and a whole slew of territories Russia might want to expand into soon.

Boring "Russia evil US good" - BS. After almost 20 Years of american agression I really can't buy into that anymore.

 

[Henri McPhee]

You quoted it twice, bro. Post #3585, where I challenged the assertion that the Assad government is legitimate by asking what makes it legitimate. Answer the challenge or not, your choice. I can't dumb it down any more than I already have.



Will do, but for right now we'll see if anyone can demonstrate the legitimacy of the Assad government. So far neither you nor Henry McPhee has even attempted.

Just a reminder because you don't seem to understand, the burden of proof is on the claimant. That doesn't put any obligation on the one who demands that proof to make any argument themselves.

What that means, and I'm trying to dumb this down as much as possible, is that if you're waiting for me to make some argument, then you're missing the point. The next step is for you, Henry McPhee, or whoever wants to, to produce some factual evidence that supports the legitimacy of the Assad government.

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The point is that if the Russians tried to topple the government in Saudi Arabia and interfere in its elections, and criticise the Saudis for human rights abuses, and launch aggressive war against it, then the American military and security and media complex would say that is not in the American national interest, or American economic interests, or even against international law. You can't have it both ways, or rush off to war at a chemical attack by Isis and Al Nusra, pretending it to be from Assad. North Korea is a communist fascist country, but there needs to be due and careful thought about it before you start moaning about appeasement.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I agree that political action is based on philosophies of power - whether the state should own certain kinds of asset, or operate certain activities, whether the State should use force for certain ends, whether the State should co-operate with other States for certain purposes.

There are lots of countries which have governments which I don't like, like Argentina and South Sudan and Zimbabwe and Eritrea, and others, but I don't propose dropping a nuclear bomb on them in order to avoid appeasement. Sometimes you have just got to say that we shall be unable to maintain even the appearance of friendly relations and use a bit of subtlety. Israel just uses endless negotiation.

I suppose you could say that Tanzania's invasion of Uganda in about 1978 to topple the tyrant Idi Amin broke international law, but there are doubts about that:

On October 27, 1978 Ugandan forces carried out a surprise invasion of the Tanzanian territory, annexing the Kagera Salient (area north of Kagera River).

The area had been defended by the 202 Brigade commanded by Brig Gen Yusuf Himid. Within two days of the invasion, Ugandan troops occupied 1,850 sqkm of Tanzanian soil, after bombing Bukoba and Kyaka towns and blowing up the Kagera Bridge which connected the salient to the rest of Tanzania. Amin went ahead and announced that the Kagera Salient was now part of Ugandan territory.

Tanzania reacts

Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere’s first reaction was to seek a diplomatic solution to the conflict through the Organisation of the African Union (OAU) now African Union. When the OAU failed to act, President Nyerere on November 2, 1978 declared war on Uganda calling on the TPDF to defend the national sovereignty and integrity.

“The world must understand our reason for wanting to hit Amin hard. Sababu za kumpiga Amin tunazo, nia tunayo, na uwezo tunao” meaning “We have the reasons to hit Amin, we have the ability to hit him and we have the determination to hit him),” said Nyerere at the Diamond Jubilee Hall in Dar es Salaam as he formally declared war on Uganda.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If you weren't "just asking a question" what was your intent with that question? Please stop wasting my time.

That's rich, my friend.

The next step is for you, Henry McPhee, or whoever wants to, to produce some factual evidence that supports the legitimacy of the Assad government.

Hama rules. His dad established that criterion. Syria ain't where you live.

2)Subsequent plebiscites gave him ridiculous majorities around the 98th percentile. Naturally, these elections were widely condemned worldwide except for the usual suspects that did not.

3)The most recent plebiscite, the only contested plebiscite in the history of Syria (contested in this context means there was someone else to vote for) won him a ridiculous majority around the 89th percentile. Naturally, this election was widely condemned worldwide except for the usual suspects that did not.

He won the election. That counts for something, doesn't it?
Allende won an election.
Look, Bashar Al Assad is never going to enter my hall of fame of people who I admire, but the facts of the matter are that in a part of the world where the freaking King of Saudi Arabia is a legitimate head of state, then Bashar Al Assad getting it from his dad is as legit as any of the fruitbat emirs just east of him.
They have seats at the UN also. And those (rule 10's) have been feeding millions of dollars to his opponents.

This quibbling over legitimacy by outsiders is somewhat bizarre. The quibbling by all of the people in Syria has its merits, to be sure.
Now let's look at the French Republic. I think they are up to being the Fifth Republic, right?
For it to ever happened, First, Second, Third, Fourth, or Fifth, a Hell of a Lot of Blood had to Flow. More than once.
Syria is just doing as we nice westerners have done in setting the example for how to change government.
First, fight a bloody war.
Then, when people are done fighting, get that election thing worked on.
They are in the middle bit, where the war isn't over yet.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Has everybody now forgotten about Syria and Syrian refugees, or is the CIA now just concentrating on toppling the bus driver government in Venezuela and interfering in their elections?

 

[trustbutverify]

Has everybody now forgotten about Syria and Syrian refugees, or is the CIA now just concentrating on toppling the bus driver government in Venezuela and interfering in their elections?

Just curious... is this a direct quote from RT, or did you kinda put it into your own words?

 

[Agatha]

This thread has become long and is putting a strain on the servers, so I have opened a continuation thread here.

Posted By: Agatha