Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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RWVBWL said:
From InjusticeinPerugia:

Meredith Kercher's killer Rudy Guede is now being allowed to leave prison to study. Where is the worldwide outrage?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/rudy-guede-meredith-kercher-killer-3132708
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Maybe this will wake up everyone associated to this case.
The sick reality of Mignini's mess and his lies....Rudy goes free... the liar, the rapist, the burglar, turned murderer...

Maresca should be ashamed of his poor performance, the innocents get convicted and the rapist murderer gets to go to college, for free no doubt.

Of course the media will offer him fairly large sums of cash for talking, no doubt about that.
 
RWVBWL View Post
Here is a photo I just found of the wound that killed Meredith.
It looks like defence attorney CDV is present in the photograph.
Be warned, it's horrible to see:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg
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How did you find the photo?

ETA: http://www.teinteresa.es/sucesos/caso-Amanda-Knox_5_550194988.html?itemId=4

La agónica muerte de Meredith Kercher

07/09/2011 - AFP

Los forenses aseguraron que Meredith Kercher murió por asfixia. Pero además, la joven sufrió, entre las 43 puñaladas que le fueron propinadas, un profundo corte en el cuello que le provocó una muerte "lenta y angustiosa". Para el crimen, los tres acusados utilizaron un cuchillo de cocina. La sentencia dejó próbado que fue Amanda la que le clavó el cuchillo, mientras los otros dos implicados, Guede y Sollecito, la sujetaban. El arma homicida fue hallada días después del crimen en casa de Sollecito, y en él fueron hallados restos de ADN de Amanda y de Meredith. Según los fiscales, Sollecito sujetó a Meredith mientras Amanda la apuñalaba en el cuello.
 
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kcoh said:
<snip>Did the police really trick her into writing down the names of all of her sexual partners and then proceeded to release the list to the media?
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We don't have the precise facts on that, kcoh. What we do know is that someone at Capanne prison, who either was medical personnel or who was posing as medical personnel, informed Amanda that a blood test they had administered to her had come back positive for HIV. Amanda returned to her cell and wrote in her diary about her shock about the diagnosis. She also listed the names of men she had been intimate with.

Some days later, police told her they wanted to search her cell and she allowed them to do it. They took her diary, and some weeks after that a journalist published it in Italy, along with lots of leering speculation.

The results of the next HIV test were negative, but they didn't tell her that until two months after the first.

A lot of questions remain, but the outcome was that Amanda's personal information was published without her permission, as a result of an HIV test that may or may not actually have been negative.
 
Supercalifragilistic said:
I must say that this is how I currently see it. I can't comprehend how someone who is totally innocent in this case would think it perfectly moral or in any way reasonable to avoid paying court-awarded damages to the person who was mistakenly fingered by their statements. Plus, as you say, surely the dimmest innocent wit would want the world to see just how sorry they are by paying the damages pronto. I'm told Knox has apologized, but of course words on their own are far too easy.
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Let me help you to understand. Knox is in no way morally responsible for Lumumba's arrest and mistreatment by the police - particularly not the pointless 6-month closure of his bar, which was the real reason why his livelihood was destroyed.

The illegal callunia conviction and the civil damages will ultimately be overturned by the ECoHR, as will the likely murder conviction for both her and Raffaele.
 
JREF2010 said:
Maybe this will wake up everyone associated to this case.
The sick reality of Mignini's mess and his lies....Rudy goes free... the liar, the rapist, the burglar, turned murderer...

Maresca should be ashamed of his poor performance, the innocents get convicted and the rapist murderer gets to go to college, for free no doubt.

Of course the media will offer him fairly large sums of cash for talking, no doubt about that.
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He'll be posting on PMF in no time, giving them more 'insights' on the 'guilt' of Amanda and Raffaele. If you stop and think of it, no other single party has been as supportive of the deal that allowed him his freedom so soon as PMF. One of them (their spouse) even tutored him in prison. I hope he doesn't feel compelled to rob someone and make a donation!

Or at least he leaves the knife at home this time...
 
Kaosium said:
However, she's innocent of the calunnia charges as well and is appealing it to the ECHR. Paying him would be an admission of guilt which would be kinda stupid being as she's contesting it.

Patrick already got paid, he sold lies about Amanda to the tabloids for nearly a hundred thousand dollars, possibly more as that just accounts for the Daily Mail and one Italian outlet (70k + 10k Euros). He also has a case pending against the police in Perugia before the ECHR for half a million Euros, which might have been imperiled by his lying in court when asked about the conduct of his interrogation in which he said he was well treated to the detriment of Amanda. Before and after his court appearance he said he was beaten and his rights were violated, but not when called to testify against Amanda.

I still hope he wins that case, but if they look at his testimony in Amanda's trial he probably won't.
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... and ironically if he loses, then the PGP will no doubt use the result to excuse the police and shift the blame to Amanda.
 
acbytesla said:
aaaaah...well, that is two guilters opinions. Paying or not paying doesn't demonstrate innocence or guilt. But it can be spun either way. I can just see the comments on this site if she did pay it when she still had legal recourse NOT to pay it.

"See, the murderering bitch basically admitted that she wasn't coerced into fingering Patrick. See, she lied about that too."


My guess is that legally, the best thing to do was not to pay Patrick's judgement, so she could effectively appeal the decision to the ECHR. If the ECHR rules that Amanda was coerced into fingering Patrick, that means the police are responsible for those damages...NOT Amanda. It also shows that the prosecution's case is built on corrupt actions.

But I guess you don't comprehend that their may be legal considerations above this money?
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Slight diversion: that's very much the reasoning we've seen from some in relation to the Lockerbie case, where Gadaffi's capitulation over the "compensation" money was taken to be an admission of Libya's guilt.
 
tsig said:
Especially if I had inadvertently caused him to be arrested and lose his business, it would be an opportunity to show to the world that I was honest about being sorry for mistakenly accusing him.
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Well it was the police who certainly caused Lumumba to be arrested. And oddly after arresting him they did little or anything to investigate if he was actually involved. They claim to know what happened in the "she buckled and told us what we knew to be true" statement. So why not even DNA test his clothing, home, bar?

Lumumba lost his business because either Mignini or the Perugia police or both closed his bar and strangely kept it closed for many months after he was cleared of involvement. Why do you suppose they kept his bar closed for months and months? Not to starve him into silence right?

I have a guess about this. Shortly after release Lumumba was granting... well getting paid for interviews and he was claiming police abuse and treatment that was strikingly similar to the abusive illegal interrogations suffered by AK and RS. Beating, no food, no water, no lawyer...called him a "dirty black"...and he even filed a case against Italy for false arrest. BUT

Mignini and police by keeping Lumumbas bar closed and in essence were denying him of a way to feed his family. This was not Knox... how could she have the power to do that? It was the prosecutor and police. They kept the bar closed. They starved him into silence and submission. Soon he stopped telling the tale of his beating and interrogation and got on the Mignini bus of lies.

Sadly Lumumba was too stupid to realize that this Mignini bus only stops in hell. And it will be on the cold day there that Lumumba will collect for his "damages" ...Lying skunk coward that he is and remains.

The fact remains that Lumumba could still be the accomplice of Guede since they were acquainted, Lumumbas phone pinged an area near the plaza very near the TOD. Lumumba was overly interested in the case as evidenced by his several attempts to get information about the case from Knox...even waiting for her outside her school after she returned to class. Lumumba also expressed an unusual interest in Miss Kercher and even offered her a job IIUC.

You and your group should be demanding answers about why the police and prosecutor kept Lumumbas bar closed apparently illegally for so very long. I think it is a critical piece of evidence indicating a corrupt police and judicial force and clear abuse of authority. They appear shameless and abusive.

How can you blame a dumb young girl locked away in jail for ruining Lumumbas life and business? The facts on this simply DO NOT add up at all.

The facts strongly indicate that the police named Lumumba and later punished him into silence about the abuse he suffered at their hand. Shameful, corrupt and common in Italy it appears.
 
There you go Rolfe, you get the anglo version and the, rather longer and more informative, LJ one! I agree with you both and Charlie about the usefulness of these comparators. Charlie seems to know dozens and dozens of cases. I only know a few (and clearly not that well) but they all come in very handy. In the Tabak/Jefferies case we see the police wielding great power. They can destroy lives and can even kill with impunity (ask Colin Stagg or the family of Jean Charles de Menezes) and can wilfully ignore cases that seem unimportant to them (Stephen Laurence). It is a corollary of this great power that those using it must be seen to be wise and judicious and an aspect of that is that they are not allowed to be wrong. Not often anyway.

We can see exactly the same process at work in extending Jefferies' police bail for months as was in play in keeping Patrick's bar closed. The Italian version is more extreme. It may be just a question of catching up. Before PACE the police enjoyed enormous powers of framing and used them to good effect to nail people they just knew were up to something. Maybe Italy is just a few decades behind us in realising that these powers must be effectively curbed, not just by writing down some rules and doing nothing when they are broken.

ETA I hasten to say framing did not stop with PACE, obviously. It became rather more difficult. Not just taped interviews but also custody officers with a duty to record the goings on in the cell area and other things, the need for which ought to offer a clue about what was going on before.
 
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GWCarver said:
Why aren't the Kerchers going to the media and trumpeting their outrage about Guede being allowed out of prison?
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Because he's poor. Because he was the poor, innocent dupe of evil Amanda and rich Raffaele and he made amends by changing his story to finger Amanda and he's really sorry about his DNA being inside Meredith's corpse's vagina and that makes it okay.
 
Kaosium said:
He'll be posting on PMF in no time, giving them more 'insights' on the 'guilt' of Amanda and Raffaele. If you stop and think of it, no other single party has been as supportive of the deal that allowed him his freedom so soon as PMF. One of them (their spouse) even tutored him in prison. I hope he doesn't feel compelled to rob someone and make a donation!

Or at least he leaves the knife at home this time...
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I am not sure I will be able to contain myself if that happens. Stop the world, I want to get off.
 
Mary_H said:
I am not sure I will be able to contain myself if that happens. Stop the world, I want to get off.
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Who knows? It might be just the thing that tips the Kerchers into looking askance at what the authorities have been doing. The last thing those with reputations on the line want is the Kerchers turning on them. I don't think it will happen but it is a direct consequence of the putrid dishonesty that Guede's role had to be minimised.
 
NancyS said:
I think people should start congratulation the Pro-Rudy lot at PMF, they must be so proud
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One PMFer expressed outrage, but was quickly silenced by another who said the Italian system is lenient, advanced, and far more progressive than the American system.

Actually that debate is clearly relevant, notwithstanding the above contortion which is required for the rebalancing of the crime to vilify Amanda and Raffaele.
 
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Chris_Halkides said:
It's a challenge to find a sentence that does not have an error. But I did find this interesting: "After the Jan. 31 conviction was announced, Lumumba told London’s Channel 5 News, 'I’d like to tell Amanda that she’s completely destroyed my life. She made me, my family, my friends suffer. She should be writing to me to apologize.'" If the author knew what fact-checking was, she could have discovered what we found out today on this thread, namely that she apologized on a number of occations. So Patrick thinks Amanda destroyed his life? He needs to get a job, support his family and stop helping to destroy hers.
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I totally agree.

What's more, it's worth remembering that if the police/PM had treated Lumumba appropriately - even after they'd sent the lights-and-sirens convoy to arrest him on the early morning of the 6th - they could and should have held him for no longer than a few days. That should have been all the time they needed to establish that there was no prima facie evidence against him, together with the facts that Knox was already indicating a withdrawal of her confused "accusation" of him, and that he was clearly in possession of a good alibi.

Instead, the police/PM not only held Lumumba in custody for two weeks, but they also - utterly inexplicably - kept his place of business (his bar) closed for several months under the ludicrous premise that it was a "potential crime scene". Those are the reasons why Lumumba lost his livelihood. Had the police/PM treated Lumumba fairly and properly - even with Knox's confused (and coerced) "confession" - the interruption to his business, livelihood and life should have been no more than if he had suffered a bout of flu.

ETA: I see that others have also made exactly the same points as me in intervening posts. I really should read the thread to the end before replying to posts made one or more pages back!
 
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Kevin_Lowe said:
Because he's poor. Because he was the poor, innocent dupe of evil Amanda and rich Raffaele and he made amends by changing his story to finger Amanda and he's really sorry about his DNA being inside Meredith's corpse's vagina and that makes it okay.
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Do you think Michael (aka Fulcanelli) is making ready for him to move in? Remember that? Michael was so convinced of the Evil Powers of Amanda that he thought Rudy Guede almost as much a victim of her as Meredith in his eyes. Said he'd be happy to put him up after prison--no worries mate!

Since Rudy is just on release now I wonder if Michael is thinking of moving down there to take classes with him in preparation of their new relationship as roomies when Rudy is totally out?

These clowns claim to revere the memory of Meredith Kercher by minimizing the crimes of the man who butchered her.

I suppose it figures though, they wish to inflict upon two other innocent families what Rudy Guede did to the Kerchers: deprive them of their children and bankrupt them in the process. No wonder they don't dare criticize Rudy Guede....
 
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RoseMontague said:
Horrible and disgusting.
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Am I alone in thinking this is a positive development for AK and RS?
I am no psychologist, but reading the full report, I conclude that it is probable RG is at low risk of reoffending, so Italian leniency may be vindicated. His desire to be forgotten is steeped in his lone role in the crime. He can not believe his luck, yet is utterly consumed by guilt, not only for his crime, but for helping consign the innocent to purgatory. Yet we all have one life, he is assimilating his circumstances to this effect, and is studying in an exercise to pretend he can firewall his past from his present.
The absurd notion, such as ships passing in the night, AK and RS enter jail as he is leaving, will create a new paradigm in irreconcilable human complexity.
I could go on and on...
 
Mary_H said:
I have to go watch Sherlock.

This is the supreme irony of articles like this:

The title of the article? Trial by Media - The Case of Amanda Knox
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Illustratated with a picture of Knox. I'm sure "Knox" is more frequent in the text than "Kercher" too. It's not the first time this has happened.

Complaining that there's too much focus on Knox by focusing a lot on Knox. :rolleyes:
 
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