Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

Watch Frontlines "The Confessions", it's an unrelated case.... but could not be more relevant IMO.... I know I sound like a broken record, promoting it.... but personally I don't think 90% of the population can believe a person can confess to a crime they did not commit..... I believe that is what hurts Knox the most.

One of the best documentaries about injustice I have ever seen.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/

Thats an excellent show on corrupt cops and ignorant detectives.

There needs to be a major reform in the laws concerning interrogations.

Police should be ashamed at this, and should be removed immediately from their job.

add:
The judge ordered that Ford be taken away immediately. U.S. marshals led Ford, 57, out of court in handcuffs as family members wept quietly from their seats.

U.S. Attorney Neil MacBride called it "a really sad day" when a police officer gets convicted and sent to prison for abusing his position and betraying his fellow officers.

"He disgraced his badge," MacBride said.

 

[acbytesla]

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They're not used in every single case, but trust me, they're also not used to get evidence for court either. They're mostly used when cases get stalled and they need some kind of hint on where to go from there.

Polygraphs were used extensively in the Green River Killer case. As a matter of fact, Gary Ridgway (the Green River Killer) passed two of them,

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I'm not sure Gary Ridgway is a very good example to prove your point. Ridgway took those polygraphs more than ten years before he was arrested and I'd bet that was 20 years ago. Also, as you said, Gary passed the polygraphs. It is examples like that have led to their decline in popularity. Not to mention that some people fail them that aren't lying.

They are definitely still used, but I'm fairly sure that I have read that they have been falling out of favor. Now I want to do the research to find out if my memory or your analysis is correct. (I'm afraid to find out that my age is making me senile)...so I'm not going to look tonight.

 

[Dan O.]

I did not mean to suggest that Amanda could have left the Questura or the interrogation once the police started talking to her. She may have been legally entitled to leave, but I seriously doubt they would have allowed her to get up and walk out the door.

The fact, though, according to the cable, is that Perugia detained Amanda before they arrested her. If the US Consulate had been reactive enough to object to the Perugians detaining a US citizen before arresting her, no doubt the Perugians would have argued, "She could have left at any time."

The problem was they knew the law, Amanda didn't, and they didn't inform her of it. On the other hand, maybe Amanda did not have the legal right to leave the Questura (but I doubt it).

At any rate, when it comes to protecting American citizens, the consulate sucked in this case.

I remember reading one of the police saying that she was to prevent Amanda from leaving if Raffaele started to scream when they arrested him. If that is true then Amanda was effectively detained even if she didn't know it at the time.

 

[AmyStrange]

Not to be confused with a factoid et. al.

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I'm not sure Gary Ridgway is a very good example to prove your point. Ridgway took those polygraphs more than ten years before he was arrested and I'd bet that was 20 years ago. Also, as you said, Gary passed the polygraphs. It is examples like that have led to their decline in popularity. Not to mention that some people fail them that aren't lying.

They are definitely still used, but I'm fairly sure that I have read that they have been falling out of favor. Now I want to do the research to find out if my memory or your analysis is correct. (I'm afraid to find out that my age is making me senile)...so I'm not going to look tonight.

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Naw Ridgway was just an interesting fact, no point being made at all.

d

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[RWVBWL]

From InjusticeinPerugia:

Meredith Kercher's killer Rudy Guede is now being allowed to leave prison to study. Where is the worldwide outrage?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/rudy-guede-meredith-kercher-killer-3132708

 

[acbytesla]

I thought they went after her because of her "peculiar behavior?" I wondered if she, perhaps, was Autistic back in my on-the-fence days, but that is because I believed in the odd Foxy Knoxy caricature. I also noticed that a lot of people who knew her before she was arrested described her as goofy and eccentric. However, I think that if she had been ugly and/or fat, the police would not be so interested in carrying this obviously dud of a case on and the media would not care. No one would.

Did the police really trick her into writing down the names of all of her sexual partners and then proceeded to release the list to the media?

The answer to your question is YES. Now Machiavelli if he were here would argue that they didn't do this. I think he said that the police didn't release the list to the media, someone at the jail did that.

 

[Kaosium]

I saw no mention of $500,000 in the article.

That's how much it was supposedly for, it looks like he was denied it by the Italian government, rejected their offer and then took it to the ECHR. The sum was 516k Euros.

 

[Kaosium]

Oh hell no! I don't want any such video on my computer.

Don't look now, we agree on something!

I was speaking of the assertion it was normal in Italy and common among Italian men.

I hope he was kidding.

 

[AmyStrange]

Knifeman, the coward

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From InjusticeinPerugia:

Meredith Kercher's killer Rudy Guede is now being allowed to leave prison to study. Where is the worldwide outrage?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/rudy-guede-meredith-kercher-killer-3132708

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Here's some of it:

He is the only one currently behind bars for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher – but jail is turning into an education for knifeman Rudy Guede.

The 27-year-old has secretly been given permission to leave his cell on the sex offenders’ wing of a top security Italian jail – so he can pursue his studies for a history degree.

But the fact that he is now able to enjoy day release to visit his tutor in a nearby town has provoked outrage.

One friend of Meredith’s family said: “Rudy Guede being allowed out of prison to study like this is a sick joke.

"Poor Meredith was in Perugia to study at university and this man was convicted of killing her.

“She is dead and here he is now studying history and could even go to the same university.”

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[Charlie Wilkes]

Sometimes people do and say things to escape the moment. Not really thinking things through to a final outcome or conclusion.
Perhaps by naming Patrick she believed she would be free to go and her and RS could really nail down that alibi and get their stories straight in the interim.

Something like that.

I'm attaching an article about the Ochoa-Danziger case, which I don't think is online anymore, which is why I hoard this stuff.

Ochoa confessed to a rape-murder he had nothing to do with. Worse, he also accused his friend, Richard Danziger, and they both spent years in prison, where Danziger was attacked and suffered permanent brain damage.

The guy who really did it, locked up for something else, eventually confessed and DNA proved it was a valid confession. He said he acted alone and he had no possible connection to Ochoa or Dangizer.

Ochoa was asked - what were you thinking? His answer was just like what you describe. He wanted to escape the moment:

"At some point you think, 'If I just get out of here, if this will just
stop, I can go talk to an attorney,' "

People in that situation don't consider long-term consequences. They are focused on the situation at hand, whatever it takes to get the cops to back off.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Here is a photo I just found of the wound that killed Meredith.
It looks like defence attorney CDV is present in the photograph.
Be warned, it's horrible to see:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg


Do you think that knife pictured above was the knife that was stabbed 3 times in Miss Kercher's throat?

I too believe that this knife is too large for the wounds that Meredith Kercher brutally suffered
as shown in the photograph linked above and that this kitchen knife found at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment would have indeed nearly decapitated Meredith Kercher if shoved all the way once, much less 3 times into her throat.

Do you agree or disagree?

Agree. That is a wound inflicted with a small knife, perhaps a folding pocket knife, by an assailant who was holding the victim from behind with the knife in his right hand. He plunged it in up to the hilt and pulled from left to right.

That is Ghirga in the photo, not CDV.

 

[RandyN]

As the first sentence of your paragraph, above, says . . . "Once he (Guede) was in police custody his story evolved' " Then Guede says he went to Filomena's window. I ask the reader to note that Guede does not know for sure what evidence the police may have found of him inside the flat and since he entered through Filomena's window it is possible that there is forensic evidence of him touching the window. So in this evolved claim, he went to Filomena's window . . .

I wish the police were better at their job and had done a serious forensic examination of Filomena's window area. They might have found the physical evidence of Guede that he is concerned they may have found, which is why he created a false alibi for himself to explain his presence at the window - acknowledge he was at the window but claim falsely that his purpose in being at the window was not a criminal purpose.

Actually there was suspected blood and also hair found on/near Filomenas window. Those samples were documented but somehow got lost. WAFS!

 

[Kaosium]

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Here's some of it:


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Here's more of it:

Mr Biscotti said: “I wouldn’t like to swap my trial with theirs. We did the best out of it. Look where they are now.

"They face a long time in prison and I wouldn’t like to be in their position.

“I am convinced we had the best strategy in the trial. The verdict on Knox and Sollecito confirms my opinion.”

Biscotti may have a point here, as sick as it is to contemplate. Barbie Nadeau being at lunch with him when he got a call and said he cut a deal becomes more poignant now.

Incidentally, I couldn't help but wonder if The Independent or any of the slavish PMF media followers were aware that "Thoughtful" of PMF has a son-in-law who ran around with Rudy Guede in Perugia and her husband tutored him a while in prison?


Especially now that it appears Rudy will be walking the streets in part because of his trial where both parties (his defense and prosecutor Mignini) agreed others (Raffaele and Amanda) were involved--which would net him a mitigation--and the prosecutor showed no interest in pursuing additional charges against Rudy but piled them as high as he could against Raffaele, Amanda and both their families? As it appears that trial was used to convict Amanda and Raffaele due to the 'finding' that others were involved I wonder if that's the kind of deal Barbie overheard?

 

[GWCarver]

Why aren't the Kerchers going to the media and trumpeting their outrage about Guede being allowed out of prison?

 

[Kestrel]

http://www.shewired.com/opinion/2014/02/10/op-ed-trial-media-case-amanda-knox

Anyone up for shredding the garbage above? I gotta work at 5am... But I will try a bit tommorow.

Instead of trying to correct all the errors, just tell the key parts of the story. Something like this would be a good start.

A handprint in blood found near Kercher's body was matched to Rudy Guede, a troubled young man connected to three separate breaking and entering incidents in the weeks before to murder. Shoe prints were matched to the shoes Guede admits to wearing that night. Guede's DNA was found in multiple places in the murder room, including inside the victim.

It is known that Kercher arrived home just a few minutes after 9 pm on that fateful night. The meal she had around 6:30 pm had not yet started to pass from her stomach, an almost certain sign that she died before 9:30 pm. Other clues, such as the fact she was still wearing her jacket point to an attack just after she arrived home.

A witness places Amanda Knox a half kilometer away at her boyfriend's place shortly before 9 pm. The couple claimed they were watching movies that night. Computer evidence shows the movie Amalie being closed manually at 9:10 pm, and an anime short being started at 9:26. The couple was elsewhere during the time period when Meredith was murdered.

The evidence in this case points straight to Rudy Guede. The problem is that the Perugia investigators had declared Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollicito guilty before the key handprint and DNA evidence was processed.

 

[RWVBWL]

Why aren't the Kerchers going to the media and trumpeting their outrage about Guede being allowed out of prison?

I totally agree, GWCarver!
As it's what, 7:43am in Italy right now,
I hope to read translations from Italian news sources that Meredith Kercher's Family lawyers Maresca, Perna and others are raising HELL over this, TODAY!

 

[RandyN]

I've followed this brutal rape and murder case since it 1st happened back in 2007,
as many of you too have.

I know of the ridiculous overnight interrogation of Amanda Knox,
done without an attorney present or audio and/or video recordings,
just hours before Miss Knox's Mother was to arrive from America.

I know that Doctor Stefanoni needed special permission to work on this brutal murder case,
and that she collected evidence herself to then test it herself.

I know that she wore dirty gloves and handled the Bra Clasp herself,
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/593/1hh5.jpg[/qimg]
possibly contaminating this crucial piece of evidence.

Instead of simply using new sterile tweezers and gloves:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/706/v536.jpg[/qimg]


I've seen photo's of the alleged kitchen knife retrieved by police investigators,
from intuition, at Raffaele Sollecito flat because it looked clean:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/96/qatp.jpg[/qimg]

Amanda Knox supposedly carried this knife around town, IIRC, per convicting Judge Massei in the 1st trial, for "protection". My 1st girlfriend, my high school sweetheart was a beautiful Latina, a Venice gangster from V13, yet neither she, nor any other gal I've ever met carried a kitchen knife around town for protection, girlz I've known wanting to protect themselves will often simply carry a small bottle of Pepper Spray, like my own bottle shown here as I often do as I shoot surfpix in the early morning hours at the beaches of Los Angeles:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/534/scvv.jpg[/qimg]


Here is another photograph of that confiscated kitchen knife
from the apartment of Amanda's boyfriend,
whom she had just met at a classical music concert,
what was it, 6 days earlier?:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/708/3m7l.jpg[/qimg]

Notice how long it is in comparison to that police officers hand?


I've read that this knife would have decapitated Meredith Kercher if shoved 3 times into her neck as she fought off a rapist.

I did not attend any of the court trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
I did not ever see the neck wound that this knife supposedly did.
Did you?


I've seen illustrations of the wound:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/20/vu2p.jpg[/qimg]


But I've never seen a photograph of the wound itself that killed Meredith Kercher.

Here is a photo I just found of the wound that killed Meredith.
It looks like defence attorney CDV is present in the photograph.
Be warned, it's horrible to see:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg


Do you think that knife pictured above was the knife that was stabbed 3 times in Miss Kercher's throat?

I too believe that this knife is too large for the wounds that Meredith Kercher brutally suffered
as shown in the photograph linked above and that this kitchen knife found at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment would have indeed nearly decapitated Meredith Kercher if shoved all the way once, much less 3 times into her throat.

Do you agree or disagree?

Unlikely this knife was the murder weapon.

The size is just one problem. The fact that the knife was tested for blood and human matter and found to be negative for both is telling IMHO. That starch was found on the blade plus Knox DNA on the handle indicates that it was not cleaned well. That the DNA lab tech said she found a sample on the blade which she noted as too small but then illogically tests it anyway in a one off UN-certified and incorrect and impossible test and claims to have found a "trace" she calls as belonging to MK is suspiciously corrupt and scientifically invalid and yet no one has filed charges against this "scientist" or even disciplined her AFAIK. Likely because doing correct scientific procedures in Italy is not something the Italian courts require apparently.

BTW the man on the screen in the MK autopsy photo is AK lawyer Ghirga and not CDV. Not that it really matters.

The photo indicates this large knife did not make the deadly wound and certainly did not make the other smaller non fatal wounds. We know the prosecution claimed that the large knife was partially plunged into the neck. That ignored the pathologist findings that bruise marks indicated a knife plunged fully to the hilt which then actually caused the bruising. This seems logical and yet was ignored by the prosecution.

Once again scientific data seems irrelevant to the Italian judiciary...about as important to them as providing a fair trial actually. So not very.

 

[JREF2010]

I totally agree, GWCarver!
As it's what, 7:43am in Italy right now,
I hope to read translations from Italian news sources that Meredith Kercher's Family lawyers Maresca, Perna and others are raising HELL over this, TODAY!

Andrea Vogt and Barbie should be happy for Rudy, maybe they can have dinner together. All three, they can make up different motivations about how Amanda did it all. Poor Rudy.... TJMK and PMF can have a Rudy Day celebration.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Silent Truth continues to Speak Loudly.

I've seen photo's of the alleged kitchen knife retrieved by police investigators,
from intuition, at Raffaele Sollecito flat because it looked clean:


<snip>

Here is another photograph of that confiscated kitchen knife
from the apartment of Amanda's boyfriend,
whom she had just met at a classical music concert,
what was it, 6 days earlier?:



Here is a photo I just found of the wound that killed Meredith.
It looks like defence attorney CDV is present in the photograph.
Be warned, it's horrible to see:
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/...07_1137_18.jpg


Do you think that knife pictured above was the knife that was stabbed 3 times in Miss Kercher's throat?

I too believe that this knife is too large for the wounds that Meredith Kercher brutally suffered
as shown in the photograph linked above and that this kitchen knife found at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment would have indeed nearly decapitated Meredith Kercher if shoved all the way once, much less 3 times into her throat.

Do you agree or disagree?

Agree. That is a wound inflicted with a small knife, perhaps a folding pocket knife, by an assailant who was holding the victim from behind with the knife in his right hand. He plunged it in up to the hilt and pulled from left to right.

That is Ghirga in the photo, not CDV.

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your reply.
I wish more people world wide would dig deeper and look at the crime scene photographs, such as the the bedroom photos that I've recently posted here on The JREF, and the knife photographs also, forgetting whatever the prosecutors state in court or the media, and then look at that horrible photograph of the fatal wound in Meredith Kercher's throat and understand that The Silent Truth that you wrote of the other day

Meanwhile, the truth sits and stares. It is silent. Lawyers can flap their arms and rant about Amanda the lying she-devil and distract people's attention from the truth. But the truth will never go away.

Guede did it.
Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

is indeed what tragically happened the night Miss Kercher was raped and murdered.

 

[Kaosium]

Unlikely this knife was the murder weapon.

The size is just one problem. The fact that the knife was tested for blood and human matter and found to be negative for both is telling IMHO. That starch was found on the blade plus Knox DNA on the handle indicates that it was not cleaned well. That the DNA lab tech said she found a sample on the blade which she noted as too small but then illogically tests it anyway in a one off UN-certified and incorrect and impossible test and claims to have found a "trace" she calls as belonging to MK is suspiciously corrupt and scientifically invalid and yet no one has filed charges against this "scientist" or even disciplined her AFAIK. Likely because doing correct scientific procedures in Italy is not something the Italian courts require apparently.

BTW the man on the screen in the MK autopsy photo is AK lawyer Ghirga and not CDV. Not that it really matters.

The photo indicates this large knife did not make the deadly wound and certainly did not make the other smaller non fatal wounds. We know the prosecution claimed that the large knife was partially plunged into the neck. That ignored the pathologist findings that bruise marks indicated a knife plunged fully to the hilt which then actually caused the bruising. This seems logical and yet was ignored by the prosecution.

Once again scientific data seems irrelevant to the Italian judiciary...about as important to them as providing a fair trial actually. So not very.

This is the prosecution expert, Bacci, on the knife's compatibility with one of the three major wounds:

He ruled out that the knife (Exhibit 36) could have caused the wound on the opposite side (still inflicted on the neck but on the right side) because of the size of the wound (1 cm and a half with a depth of 4 cm) and the fact that at 4 cm from the tip the width of the blade of the knife is about 3 cm and therefore much larger than the width of the wound (as indicated, 1.5cm).

The second major stab wound the best he can say is:

This knife was a kitchen knife with a very voluminous blade. In relation to the biggest wound the compatibility was deemed to exist on the grounds that although he was aware of the arguments against such an assessment, it was not possible to be certain in terms of attribution or exclusion

In other words he's not certain he can rule it out but he's aware why others might. It just so happens this wound goes within a millimeter of the depth of the wound above and has hilt bruises too.

The third main wound could be made by just about anything sharp, including of course the one which made the two above.