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Coke creates advert that causes conservatives to go nuts

Not only were both speaking different languages, we were each speaking the other person's native language instead of our own. :eye-poppi

I think that is very common in multilingual conversations. That's the best way to make sure you aren't using vocabulary beyond the other person's grasp.

ETA: I visited a German high school english class when I was a teen and the teacher asked me about a word that to this day I have no idea what she meant. She spoke with a UK accent, so it was likely something we Americans just didn't bring over. It was quite embarrassing to just stare at her in total confusion while discussing "my" language.
 
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You are the one equating change to pandemonium, why don't you specify the rate of change.

It all relates to being able to build an identity, on psychological integrity. As Bruce Alexander addressed in The Globalization of Addiction, "psychosocial dislocation" in times of great upheaval leads to the creation of addictive personalities, often in a very negative sense--of being addicted to something that harms one's mental and/or physical health. Socially disoriented people often don't even know the source of their existential malaise, but the psychic pain of lacking a healthy culture surfaces through this addictive behaviour.

So, while in theory "pandemonium" would seem to equate to infinite change (to wit, screaming demons swinging from the chandeliers of the mind, etc.), in practice this change needs only be something akin to the Highlands Clearing, or the invasion of North America by Europeans. The destruction of race (though that seems a minor part of most people's identities), religion, language, and culture, leaves only trade holding people together which is a hell of a thing to have solely in common.

So, the kind of society that leads to high levels of addictions, such as the free market society we have today that atomises people and liquidates culture into a "whatever" mode, is edging close to what I would call pandemonium. So, I can fully sympathise with "conservatives" who wish to preserve all they can preserve of their "culture suite" we might say: culture, language, religion, and race, and not just huck it into the four winds. A strong culture suite retains a way of looking at the world that is lost when life becomes anything goes.

Cpl Ferro
 
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IThe destruction of race ..., religion, language, and culture, leaves only trade holding people together which is a hell of a thing to have solely in common.

.... So, I can fully sympathise with "conservatives" who wish to preserve all they can preserve of their "culture suite" we might say: culture, language, religion, and race, and not just huck it into the four winds. A strong culture suite retains a way of looking at the world that is lost when life becomes anything goes.

Cpl Ferro

I get that - but the American culture suite is, and always has been multi-lingual.

The "language" part of our cultural suite is multiple languages, with American English being only the most dominant of many.

To add that that, there are many nations which have multiple languages but still have a strong cultural identity. Nepal, for example, has about 50 languages. There is no separatist movement within Nepal; it is a multi-cultural but cohesive nation, as are the various other multi-lingual nations described in the thread.
 
You are the one equating change to pandemonium, why don't you specify the rate of change.

It all relates to being able to build an identity, on psychological integrity. As Bruce Alexander addressed in The Globalization of Addiction, "psychosocial dislocation" in times of great upheaval leads to the creation of addictive personalities, often in a very negative sense--of being addicted to something that harms one's mental and/or physical health. Socially disoriented people often don't even know the source of their existential malaise, but the psychic pain of lacking a healthy culture surfaces through this addictive behaviour.

So, while in theory "pandemonium" would seem to equate to infinite change (to wit, screaming demons swinging from the chandeliers of the mind, etc.), in practice this change needs only be something akin to the Highlands Clearing, or the invasion of North America by Europeans. The destruction of race (though that seems a minor part of most people's identities), religion, language, and culture, leaves only trade holding people together which is a hell of a thing to have solely in common.

So, the kind of society that leads to high levels of addictions, such as the free market society we have today that atomises people and liquidates culture into a "whatever" mode, is edging close to what I would call pandemonium. So, I can fully sympathise with "conservatives" who wish to preserve all they can preserve of their "culture suite" we might say: culture, language, religion, and race, and not just huck it into the four winds. A strong culture suite retains a way of looking at the world that is lost when life becomes anything goes.

Cpl Ferro
Could you synthesize that down to answering my question, which was actually your question to someone else?
 
And I wonder how many people were upset when all the Catholic churches switched from the "classic" Latin services to services in people's spoken languages?
The traddies still are.

<snip>But really, don't the borders in Europe, for example, mostly lie along linguistic lines? Germans speak German, Frenchmen speak French, Spaniards speak Spanish, etc.?
Good grief you really have the parochialism.
Have you ever heard of Switzerland, Austria, Belgium...........
 
I think that is very common in multilingual conversations. That's the best way to make sure you aren't using vocabulary beyond the other person's grasp.

ETA: I visited a German high school english class when I was a teen and the teacher asked me about a word that to this day I have no idea what she meant. She spoke with a UK accent, so it was likely something we Americans just didn't bring over. It was quite embarrassing to just stare at her in total confusion while discussing "my" language.

Haha. I actually had a few similar things like that my time in Spain.

When I wrote to my host family before going over there, I asked about what type of clothing to bring for the weather. They suggested I have an 'anorak', which I was unable to translate. It wasn't until mid year that I heard the English teacher use that as an English word and I realized it was a type of coat that was popular in the UK (and possibly colder places in the US), but not in Southern California.

The other was when I learned the slang for toilet was pronounced 'bah-tear' and I assumed it was spelled 'bater'. Again, much later in the year I realized it was 'water' and was short for water closet.

Back on topic of language and culture. What is more American than a Buckaroo* using his lasso** to rope some cattle

The idea that speaking languages other than English is un-American is complete hogwash. English has taken so much of its vocabulary from foreign languages, that everybody who speaks English is speaking many words that came from foreign parts.

* from Spanish Vaquero - meaning one who works with cattle - a cowboy.
** also from Spanish lazo meaning knot.
 
It all relates to being able to build an identity, on psychological integrity. As Bruce Alexander addressed in The Globalization of Addiction, "psychosocial dislocation" in times of great upheaval leads to the creation of addictive personalities, often in a very negative sense--of being addicted to something that harms one's mental and/or physical health. Socially disoriented people often don't even know the source of their existential malaise, but the psychic pain of lacking a healthy culture surfaces through this addictive behaviour.

So, while in theory "pandemonium" would seem to equate to infinite change (to wit, screaming demons swinging from the chandeliers of the mind, etc.), in practice this change needs only be something akin to the Highlands Clearing, or the invasion of North America by Europeans. The destruction of race (though that seems a minor part of most people's identities), religion, language, and culture, leaves only trade holding people together which is a hell of a thing to have solely in common.

So, the kind of society that leads to high levels of addictions, such as the free market society we have today that atomises people and liquidates culture into a "whatever" mode, is edging close to what I would call pandemonium. So, I can fully sympathise with "conservatives" who wish to preserve all they can preserve of their "culture suite" we might say: culture, language, religion, and race, and not just huck it into the four winds. A strong culture suite retains a way of looking at the world that is lost when life becomes anything goes.

Cpl Ferro

Consider a visit to Fredricksburg, TX.

Majority languages are German and Spanish.

4th of July? Jalapeňo bratwurst burritos washed down with dopplebock; green-chile mustard potato salad; apple-cinnamon empanadas and calavasita kolaches. And vanilla ice cream with cajeta.

Conjunto music? German polkas played by mariachis.

You should hear the novum ordo celebrated in German, with folklorico accompaniment.

Of course, the old traditions are dying out...now the newcomers are speaking English, and the kids want McDonald's. Selena who?
 
Of course, the old traditions are dying out...now the newcomers are speaking English, and the kids want McDonald's. Selena who?

Oh noes, according to Ferro, that means anything goes! Next you'll see bestiality orgies in the streets being part of the culture and the country will collapse!
 
Consider a visit to Fredricksburg, TX.

Big smiles!!

Love that part of the state and visit as often as possible.

I knew an elderly man there who could not keep a conversation in English if he tried. Born and raised in the Hill Country, his parents spoke German and the people who worked for him spoke Spanish, so while he spoke English fine, he wandered in and out of the other two quite often.

I think it hurt my head more than others because I knew a few words in German and had taken Spanish in school, so I was actively trying to follow him when everyone else just tuned him out.

He was more American than apple pie and baseball combined.
 
Oh noes, according to Ferro, that means anything goes! Next you'll see bestiality orgies in the streets being part of the culture and the country will collapse!

You may be right. Last time I was there I saw a Whataburger being put up on the corner where a guy used to carve bears and eagles from tree trunks with a chain saw. [flips through revelations for a related passage . . . ]
 
Consider a visit to Fredricksburg, TX.

Majority languages are German and Spanish.

4th of July? Jalapeňo bratwurst burritos washed down with dopplebock; green-chile mustard potato salad; apple-cinnamon empanadas and calavasita kolaches. And vanilla ice cream with cajeta.

Conjunto music? German polkas played by mariachis.

You should hear the novum ordo celebrated in German, with folklorico accompaniment.

Of course, the old traditions are dying out...now the newcomers are speaking English, and the kids want McDonald's. Selena who?

Fredericksburg is also the site of some really great museums;I recommend the National Musuem of the Pacific War highly. If you are wondering why the major museum devoted to WW2 in the Pacific is located there,has something to do with it's being the hometown of Admiral Nimitz.
 
Odds are pretty good your neighbours are learning English to work with the dominant local language. Or they're still using (insert language X here) around the house as a way of maintaining some of their own traditions, either way they are your neighbours. You can either be friendly or not, but I know which one makes life easier.

Being from a country with 2 official languages, yes I am aware of translational difficulties. Oddly, people are able to work through them.

As a member of the CAF, I am acutely aware of tradition. My own philosophy on it and one that I share with a good many people is that mindlessly doing something because "it's tradition" is pointless unless the tradition supports a valid goal. For example, even if no other part of Canadian society did so, the military would still hold our Remembrance Day ceremonies to honour the sacrifices of those who have gone before us, because that particular call back gives hope to those currently serving that what we are called to do means something, we still hold "Soldiers Christmas Dinners" where the officers and SNCOs serve the JNCOs and do the clean up as a way of saying thank you, and to remind us in the "high-priced help" where we started and where the lowest of us can rise to - all valid social goals.

What social goal does not speaking another language serve, and why should it be supported?

Dear Reiver,

Why can't "we do this because it gives meaning and cohesion to our lives" be a valid goal?

Why can't the maintenance of hegemony of our current language be an example of such a valid goal?

Cpl Ferro
 
Could you synthesize that down to answering my question, which was actually your question to someone else?

Dear David,

How about, a rate of change that doesn't cause the cultural suite to disintegrate leading to social problems and a sense of malaise in people like myself?

Cpl Ferro
 
Dear David,

How about, a rate of change that doesn't cause the cultural suite to disintegrate leading to social problems and a sense of malaise in people like myself?

Cpl Ferro

So long as that rate of change doesn't cause the cultural suite to stagnate leading to social problems and a sense of malaise in people like myself.

Any idea on how to find the balance?
 
Dear Reiver,



Why can't "we do this because it gives meaning and cohesion to our lives" be a valid goal?



Why can't the maintenance of hegemony of our current language be an example of such a valid goal?



Cpl Ferro


That fact that you see it as "maintaining hegemony" that tells me that your goals aren't positive, but rather based on fear - fear of losing a favoured position.

Nothing prevents English speaking persons from speaking it. And given English's position in the US overall, I would worry about English losing out to another language - how many Hindi movies did Hollywood release this year? When was the last time the Senate debated in Finnish? Which major US firm releases it's annual report in Arabic?
 
So long as that rate of change doesn't cause the cultural suite to stagnate leading to social problems and a sense of malaise in people like myself.

Any idea on how to find the balance?

Dear Dr.,

Well, we start from the idea of what people are, which is humans made, as it were, in the image of the Creativity of the universe. Call that God or not, doesn't really matter, the universe creates things--planets, frogs, rainbows--and we can create things, too. This is the basis for our value as a species, that is, that our identity as creative individuals best affords us the good life, which corresponds with the survival of our species and the concomitant technological transformation of the biosphere and the rest of the universe immediately accessible to us for the time being.

From this perspective, the highest or most important thing to preserve is a healthy linguistic tradition, which means a well-stocked language (metaphors, words) and a literate population capable of reading the classics of its own tradition, and the translated works of others. It can, I admit, help to learn other languages; translation helps broaden the mind; but it also helps to have everyone in the country speaking the same language, so that everyone can be included in the national dialogue.

Most polite people will dislike talk of racial preservation, you probably are, and LaRouche is adamantly against it, but, some people still care about it, unconsciously, preconsciously or consciously. A given race is preserved by the expedient of industrialising and otherwise developing the countries from whom the cream of their populations are being skimmed by emigration. That is, if we would rather not be inundated by people of alien races, changing the racial stock of the nation, the humane solution—indeed, the solution mandated whether or not anyone cares about race--is to help make where they came from worth living in, since people most often emigrate due to lack of opportunities, and the presence of some kind of national strife that makes life there unpleasant. The fact that people are immigrating to the European-predominant parts of the world indicates a profound immorality embedded in the world system of political economy.

Religion, I would recommend recognising that Christianity is one of the three essential developments that lead to modern Western civilisation (the other two being the Renaissance and Classical Greece). Making it the official religion would help, I think. Not the state religion in the sense of being compulsory, but official in the sense that its foundational importance to Western civ is recognised and its tenets should be taught in schools, its holidays are the basis for official holidays, and the like. This may make some people grumpy. I'm prepared for grumpiness if it means maintaining the traditional and Classical value that Christianity has for our society. I'm not perfectly convinced of this, but there you have it.

Culturally, the matter is more difficult. As dudalb astutely pointed out, I am a follower of Lyndon LaRouche, who has no time of day to give to popular culture or distinctly national culture which doesn't have anything to do with Classical art. This all he shoves into the drawer labelled “counterculture” before proceeding to close and lock it. I grasp the danger counterculture has: it's addictive and distracting and a personality marinating in it can lose the capacity for appreciating Classical beauty. In fact, this is where I want to emphasise that the political situation being sought, by myself and by my fellow LaRoucheans, orbits Beauty. So in dealing with counterculture, which is perpetually changing and increasing, the question is how can Beauty be derived from it. I'll give one example: abolish the “intellectual property” laws that prevent Classical composers from using elements of what amounts now to peasant music, counterculture. I don't know if that's a feasible or even more than a token step towards both preserving national culture, but it's an idea.

I hope this answers your question.

Cpl Ferro
 
That fact that you see it as "maintaining hegemony" that tells me that your goals aren't positive, but rather based on fear - fear of losing a favoured position.

Nothing prevents English speaking persons from speaking it. And given English's position in the US overall, I would worry about English losing out to another language - how many Hindi movies did Hollywood release this year? When was the last time the Senate debated in Finnish? Which major US firm releases it's annual report in Arabic?

Dear Reiver,

I don't know what the difference is, if one sees a good thing one is always fearful that it might come to harm or an end (unless God, I suppose, though Christ proves that even God can meet a bad end, at least on the surface).

That English, which I'm fond of, isn't losing its hegemony in the US or the rest of the English-speaking world very quickly, is, I think, a good thing.

Cpl Ferro
 

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