Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

Perry Mason never used a factoid in those dramatic moments.

fac·toid (fktoid)
n.
1. A piece of unverified or inaccurate information that is presented in the press as factual, often as part of a publicity effort, and that is then accepted as true because of frequent repetition: "What one misses finally is what might have emerged beyond both facts and factoids a profound definition of the Marilyn Monroe phenomenon" (Christopher Lehmann-Haupt).
2. Usage Problem A brief, somewhat interesting fact.

He didn't use false information that had been in the press numerous times, which is what a factoid is.

Paul had uncovered some information that Perry put together that he could use to get the person in the visitors' gallery or on the stand to confess.

You might as well give up on this, Grinder, before you tear all your hair out as I have done over Bill's usage of the word (and he uses it a lot).

You may have provided the definition, but usage rules in my town. Oh wait -- we both live in the same town. Never mind.

In every context in which I have heard or read the word factoid (until now), I, and everyone I know, have understood a factoid to be a small, unimportant fact, or a "factette" if you will. It is not necessarily false; it is more a "fun fact" than a "false fact." It may be true OR false.

"oid" means "like," so technically, a factoid is fact-like. That does not necessarily make it false. I think Christopher Lehmann-Haupt's message was that a factoid may be a fact, but we may never know for sure. A factoid is something that sounds like it could be a fact.

Definition schmefinition -- look how your source said to pronounce it. And I'm supposed to go by what they say? I scoff at them!

Bottom line -- don't use "factoid" to mean "false fact" around me, because it does not mean that to me.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Why do you think they didn't show the easy lift to the ledge but instead cut to another camera leaving out the actual move to the ledge?

They do it both times he raises himself to the ledge, first at 6:30, then at 7:35.

I would like to see a reconstruction of someone climbing the wall, climbing through the broken window, entering and exiting the bedroom, and using the bathroom, without leaving footprints containing dust, dirt, leaves or glass in either of the two rooms or the hall.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I think that could be an inference. I could be wrong, but if it were me, I would have had the pictures on Facebook by that time and I would not have deleted them from my camera by that time. I'm not sure Amanda had used her camera much once she got to Perugia. There are not only no pictures of Meredith, there are few pictures of anything or anyone from the previous month.
ETA: I think Amanda and Raf had only myspace pages, not Facebook. Maybe it is not as photo-friendly.

She had no internet connection at the cottage. Uploading anything was not so straightforward.
OTOH obviously she had to put the photos into her laptop for viewing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sgt Pasquali did one reconstruction

I believe there are three possibilities with regard to the broken glass and the video only dealt with two of them.

1. The rock was thrown from the outside and broke the outside surface of the glass.
2. The rock was thrown from the inside and broke the inside surface of the glass.
3. The rock was thrown from the inside and broke the outside surface of the glass.

Item 3 is possible because the window is an inward opening casement window.

My reading of Massei is that his theory is #3. My problem with it is that the position and momentum of the rock will be different from what they would have been in #1. Defense witness Sgt. Pasquali attempted to reconstruct #1, and this was shown to the Massei court. IIUC his demonstration accounted for the glass that was distributed well into the room.

 

[Strozzi]

They do it both times he raises himself to the ledge, first at 6:30, then at 7:35.

I would like to see a reconstruction of someone climbing the wall, climbing through the broken window, entering and exiting the bedroom, and using the bathroom, without leaving footprints containing dust, dirt, leaves or glass in either of the two rooms or the hall.

Mary, you want to see shoeprint dust traces in Filomena's room? Photos exist in Ron Hendry's "Part Two: Did Rudy Guede gain entrance to the cottage through Filomena Romanelli’s window?"

Hendry states that two garments on the floor exhibited indications of having been stepped on by someone whose shoe had loose appearing material on it. The shoeprints are laid down in such a direction to indicate that the person was stepping from the window area towards the center of the room.

Read section 5 and look at the two photos in that section (9th and 10th photos down in the article) at the following link:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry2-----a.html

 

[Diocletus]

There are other omissions in her technical report, some of which are irrelevant.

Yeah. But most of which are not irrelevant.

 

[Diocletus]

My reading of Massei is that his theory is #3. My problem with it is that the position and momentum of the rock will be different from what they would have been in #1. Defense witness Sgt. Pasquali attempted to reconstruct #1, and this was shown to the Massei court. IIUC his demonstration accounted for the glass that was distributed well into the room.

I don't know what to say about this theory, it's so asinine.

There is no way on God's green earth a rock could be thrown from inside, bounce off a shutter, then break the glass on the outside-facing surface, creating the spray and damage pattern that we see here.

For one thing, anyone who has ever thrown a rock knows that the force of that rock hitting the shutter would severely damage the shutter and/or its locking mechanism. If the rock even did "bounce" backwards from the shutter (as opposed to more or less dropping straight down), it would not do so with enough force to burst all of that glass backwards into the room. It's a silly theory invented by liars and dreamers.

 

[Diocletus]

How many times do officials in Perugia lie?

You might as well ask how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

 

[Strozzi]

You might as well ask how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

Diocletus, you must have gone to Purdue. You set yourself up for that one. Engineering students from Purdue University reported that its licking machine, modeled after a human tongue, took an average of 364 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary, you want to see shoeprint dust traces in Filomena's room? Photos exist in Ron Hendry's "Part Two: Did Rudy Guede gain entrance to the cottage through Filomena Romanelli’s window?"

Hendry states that two garments on the floor exhibited indications of having been stepped on by someone whose shoe had loose appearing material on it. The shoeprints are laid down in such a direction to indicate that the person was stepping from the window area towards the center of the room.

Read section 5 and look at the two photos in that section (9th and 10th photos down in the article) at the following link:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry2-----a.html

Thank you, Strozzi; that is helpful. I am going to counter it by saying that what we are looking at may be the path the rock took into the shopping bag. It hits the first pair of black pants, bounces at a right angle (as square-edged rocks will do), heading across the other black pants and into the shopping bag, which may already have been lying partly on its side on the floor, for all we know. Even if the rock ricocheted directly into the bag, it still could have left debris on the second pair of pants.

ETA: Has anyone ever tried to explain how the rock got itself heading in a direction adjacent or parallel to the window as opposed to directly into the room? And why it would end up closer to the unbroken pane than to the broken one?

ETA: Why, yeas, someone has, and his name in Ron Hendry: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html (Items 1 and 2)

 

[NancyS]

So Sollecito watches cartoons as Meredith lies dying . On a serious note is the computer evidence new? It seems pretty important if so.

It seems to be fairly conclusive evidence. If they started playing a cartoon at 9:26, they can't have left Raffaele's until after 9:30 even if they just opened the file and ran out carrying a big knife. What is the very earliest they could have made it to the cottage? You would have to include a period of standing about in the square to be seen by Curatolo and the time it would take to meet Guede and invite him back. Once back at the cottage Guede would need time to do a poo prior to the supposed argument and then time to touch Meredith's vagina - and Amanda would have needed to change her clothes as no blood was found on the clothes she had worn earlier that day.

There seems to be so much evidence of their innocence that I find it so hard to understand that some people think they are guilty beyond all reasonable doubt

 

[Mary_H]

Bad for glass

As for the glass on the ledge, it is lined up because when the rock hit the window and the shutter, they slammed open into the room, against the doors of the closet, which fell open, then swung back shut, lining up the glass on the ledge, then swung back open into the room in their final resting place.

If I were a burglar removing shards of glass from a window, I would throw them on the ground, not lay them neatly on the windowsill where I might have to step or climb across them. Rudy could have reached up and pulled himself over the windowsill by holding on to the molding, but there are no marks there.

ETA: No takers, eh? That's okay, it's just for fun and I don't care if I'm wrong. I have skipped over pretty much every post in these seven threads that had the word "window" in it, but I imagine it has been talked about a time or two.

There is one major detriment to Ron's report, though-- he assumes Filomena's room was ransacked. He should not have started out with that assumption.

P.S. Things were moved on the floor between the time of the video and the time of the photos.

 

[anglolawyer]

As for the glass on the ledge, it is lined up because when the rock hit the window and the shutter, they slammed open into the room, against the doors of the closet, which fell open, then swung back shut, lining up the glass on the ledge, then swung back open into the room in their final resting place.

If I were a burglar removing shards of glass from a window, I would throw them on the ground, not lay them neatly on the windowsill where I might have to step or climb across them. Rudy could have reached up and pulled himself over the windowsill by holding on to the molding, but there are no marks there.

Have you actually tried this at home? He didn't lay them neatly. He just yanked out a couple of big pieces, put them on the wide sill, climbed in and closed the shutter behind him, lining up the glass as he did so. I would like to see your method demonstrated please. It seems fantastical to me.

 

[Mary_H]

Have you actually tried this at home? He didn't lay them neatly. He just yanked out a couple of big pieces, put them on the wide sill, climbed in and closed the shutter behind him, lining up the glass as he did so. I would like to see your method demonstrated please. It seems fantastical to me.

Home is the sailor, home from the sea! Welcome back, Honorable anglolawyer. You were missed.

I will try this at home the first chance I get. To be honest, I thought YOU were the one who told me the pieces were lined up. I am going to hunt down that post.....

I still don't see any reason to put them on the ledge when it would be so much easier to toss them on the ground. Off to look at the pictures again....

 

[Strozzi]

Thank you, Strozzi; that is helpful. I am going to counter it by saying that what we are looking at may be the path the rock took into the shopping bag. It hits the first pair of black pants, bounces at a right angle (as square-edged rocks will do), heading across the other blacks pants and into the shopping bag, which may already have been lying partly on its side on the floor, for all we know. Even if the rock ricocheted directly into the bag, it still could have left debris on the second pair of pants.

Mary, there is more evidence. The 10th photo down shows what appears to be shoe debris on the bottom of the window drape. Hendry believes that the burglar stepped on it as he entered through the window. Similar-looking debris is on the two garments on the floor seen in the 9th photo down. I am sceptical that a 9 lb rock bouncing off a shutter as it entered the room bounced sideways leaving the debris pattern it did before coming to rest on the paper bag. The fact that the paper bag, positioned as it is, is torn from the top indicates that the rock was descending from above, not bouncing laterally. To bounce laterally and tear the top of the bag suggests the rock bounced in an upward arc from the garments to the top of the paper bag.

I am not aware that the police saw the shoe debris evidence or analyzed it. But then, they were not the ones to spot the putative seamen stain on the pillowcase either. Believing from the beginning that the break-in was probably staged, they did not do serious collection and testing of evidence in the room such as testing what looks to be shoe debris that forensic engineer Hendry identified. Too bad Andrea Vogt's husband, a reputable soil scientist (Ph.D) with many peer-reviewed publications on soil matter, was not consulted by the police to examine shoe and other debris. He might have helped identify the sole killer, Rudy.

 

[Grinder]

What kind of protected childhood did you have where you weren't able to explore your environment? Climbing is natural and there is nothing spectacular about that move.

Sand in your kibble? When is the last time you used the first move of the rock climber?

As a life long resident of the great NW I've probably been much higher (in a tree) than you have ever seen but the technique used was a rock climber move that wouldn't be one that moist would use. Go review the lawyer climbing.

Before there is the over reaction, I'm sure that Rudy could have climbed up. The fact that the guy could easily reach the window with his feet on top of the lower window's upper frame makes that clear. I urged, since seeing it, showing the video in court or promoting it as Maori did.

 

[anglolawyer]

Home is the sailor, home from the sea! Welcome back, Honorable anglolawyer. You were missed.

I will try this at home the first chance I get. To be honest, I thought YOU were the one who told me the pieces were lined up. I am going to hunt down that post.....

I still don't see any reason to put them on the ledge when it would be so much easier to toss them on the ground. Off to look at the pictures again....

Thank you Mary .

They were lined up alright - but not your way. Let us know how the window-smashing goes.

 

[Grinder]

I use to live in the Eastlake area of Seattle. A nice apartment with a great view of Lake Union and the Space Needle. The only problem with the apartment is that it had only one parking space. And I had a roommate. So if the space was occupied by his car, I would park on the crowded street in the neighborhood. Which meant I parked in a different spot all the time and sometimes as many as a couple of blocks away.

Maybe you should have spent a few bucks for a residential parking permit.

 

[anglolawyer]

She had no internet connection at the cottage. Uploading anything was not so straightforward.
OTOH obviously she had to put the photos into her laptop for viewing.

We had this a zillion times before Katody. I think she did have internet access. The source escapes me (but I will find it). It might be Barbie quoting Amanda in a MySpace entry or an email home.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary, there is more evidence. The 10th photo down shows what appears to be shoe debris on the bottom of the window drape. Hendry believes that the burglar stepped on it as he entered through the window. Similar-looking debris is on the two garments on the floor seen in the 9th photo down. I am sceptical that a 9 lb rock bouncing off a shutter as it entered the room bounced sideways leaving the debris pattern it did before coming to rest on the paper bag. The fact that the paper bag, positioned as it is, is torn from the top indicates that the rock was descending from above, not bouncing laterally. To bounce laterally and tear the top of the bag suggests the rock bounced in an upward arc from the garments to the top of the paper bag.

I am not aware that the police saw the shoe debris evidence or analyzed it. But then, they were not the ones to spot the putative seamen stain on the pillowcase either. Believing from the beginning that the break-in was probably staged, they did not do serious collection and testing of evidence in the room such as testing what looks to be shoe debris that forensic engineer Hendry identified. Too bad Andrea Vogt's husband, a reputable soil scientist (Ph.D) with many peer-reviewed publications on soil matter, was not consulted by the police to examine shoe and other debris. He might have helped identify the sole killer, Rudy.

It is hard to believe, as is everything about this case, that they did not look for footprints in the bedroom. But then they didn't want to know whether anyone had come in through the window.

ETA: It's still not much evidence a burglar walked through the room, Strozzi.