Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

<snip>As for whether you can deduce TOD with great precision from stomach contents alone under normal conditions, of course you cannot. However if you combine eyewitness testimony, the location of the body, the state of the flat, Meredith's failure to call her mother, the phone records, Rudy's Skype conversation, stomach contents and body temperature you can narrow down the TOD substantially. Meredith was seen alive until 20:55 or so, and is incredibly unlikely to have lived much past 21:30 or so at most.<snip>

Now, there's your basic osmotic evaluation.

 

[Strozzi]

Any photo showing the last few weeks of Meredith enjoying life is very important. How could these be forgotten?! Somebody needs to put up a site to collect donations to have whatever data is on that drive recovered so Meredith can be remembered.

ETA: I already discussed the drive and it's history with an engineer from The Data Rescue Center and he thought there was a good chance of getting the data back. This is one of the real recovery services and not a fly-by-night that does the easy stuff and sticks you with a huge bill. They are now familiar with the Toshiba drives (2 years ago they said they couldn't do it because of the new technology used).

Dan, that is a noble idea. However, have the computers been returned to Raffaele and Amanda or are they still held by the prosecutor? If a recovery center can recover data from the computers I hope their first priority is to recover computer data from the evening of the crime until and including the police interaction (destruction) of the computers. To me, that is more important than recovering photos of the two young women together.

Furthermore, if I had to make a choice between contributing again to Amanda's and Raffaele's legal defense expenses or recovering nice photos for the Kercher family (who despise Amanda and whose agent is trying to help imprison her for 30 years), I'd rather contribute my money to the legal defense.

 

[davefoc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsQLKWDskhA

...

I believe there are three possibilities with regard to the broken glass and the video only dealt with two of them.

1. The rock was thrown from the outside and broke the outside surface of the glass.
2. The rock was thrown from the inside and broke the inside surface of the glass.
3. The rock was thrown from the inside and broke the outside surface of the glass.

Item 3 is possible because the window is an inward opening casement window. It is theoretically possible that somebody got a rock and busted the glass while they were inside the apartment with the window partially open so that the shards would land in the room thereby mimicking the results of a rock thrown from the outside. I thought this was the prosecution's theory because the distribution of the glass in the room and probably outside the room make it look like the glass was broken from the outside.

Am I confused and/or wrong about this? Maybe the prosecution's theory is that either AK or RS went outside and threw a rock into the window?

 

[codyjuneau]

No he left the costume jewelery and knock off bags...but I bet he stuffed his pockets full with her stash...probably her coke, hash, butter and earwax. And she is going to report that missing right??? Didn't Laura and Filomena ask Knox to lie about the drugs?

.
Wasn't there something about Filomena's makeup bag being rifled or stolen? That would be a convenient place for Filomena to hide illegal drugs.
.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I thought this was the prosecution's theory because the distribution of the glass in the room and probably outside the room make it look like the glass was broken from the outside.

Am I confused and/or wrong about this? Maybe the prosecution's theory is that either AK or RS went outside and threw a rock into the window?

I really struggled to figure out this bit too. The Massei passage is rather confusing.

Once deciphered, the Massei story is that they closed the shutters and chucked the rock at the shutters from the inside. The rock somehow threw most of the glass backwards, and then the shutters bounced the rock back into the room without suffering any visible damage.

Why did they come up with this? Well, if the accused had "staged" a break-in by chucking a rock through from outside that would have looked exactly like a real break-in and give no possibilities for framing up Knox and Sollecito. So they made up some story where they faked it in a really strange way, so they could present it as evidence they were guilty.

It's one of the places where Mignini, Massei and Christiani went totally off the reservation in my humble opinion. It was total nonsense and not even necessary to the prosecution story.

 

[codyjuneau]

.
One other thought about the TV 5 video.

I hope the judge and jurors have been made aware that the bars on the lower window were there the night of the murder, and that the bars on the upper window were not.

That might not be obvious to them.
.

 

[codyjuneau]

Given that some posters regard an 18 minute delay in calling 112 suspicious, and regard a one-year delay in reporting information about a crime to be rock solid evidence....

...... maybe Quintavalle will be giving his iron-clad evidence in 2015!

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It's like wine. It gets better with age. Or is that whiskey? Screech maybe?
.

 

[codyjuneau]

This was Dec 18th 2007. So it is simple. Where on this 18 Dec. video is the place where we can watch these TMB tests being done? The defense experts were outside in a van ...so this must be videoed correct? Please be so kind to provide a time stamp so that we can quickly get to the bottom of this matter about TMB tests.

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Why were defense experts relegated to a van outside?

Was the prosecution team worried the defense experts might contaminate evidence by picking it up with dirty gloves and passing it around? Or that they might step in blood and track it around the cottage?

Experts would never do that would they?
.

 

[codyjuneau]

Any photo showing the last few weeks of Meredith enjoying life is very important. How could these be forgotten?! Somebody needs to put up a site to collect donations to have whatever data is on that drive recovered so Meredith can be remembered.

ETA: I already discussed the drive and it's history with an engineer from The Data Rescue Center and he thought there was a good chance of getting the data back. This is one of the real recovery services and not a fly-by-night that does the easy stuff and sticks you with a huge bill. They are now familiar with the Toshiba drives (2 years ago they said they couldn't do it because of the new technology used).

.
The highlighted part really is true Dan. Seriously.
.

 

[Mary_H]

Any photo showing the last few weeks of Meredith enjoying life is very important. How could these be forgotten?! Somebody needs to put up a site to collect donations to have whatever data is on that drive recovered so Meredith can be remembered.<snip>

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The highlighted part really is true Dan. Seriously.
.

This is another test of how devoted PLE was to the victim, that they allowed "investigators" to discard all of Meredith's belongings, including personal items, mementos and gifts she had bought for her parents. I know John Kercher, for one, spoke out against it, but I guess he blames Amanda and Raffaele for that, too.

Has Amanda ever stated there were pictures of Meredith on her hard drive? I know others have inferred it, but I don't think it's something we should assume and/or look forward to.

 

[davefoc]

I really struggled to figure out this bit too. The Massei passage is rather confusing.

Once deciphered, the Massei story is that they closed the shutters and chucked the rock at the shutters from the inside. The rock somehow threw most of the glass backwards, and then the shutters bounced the rock back into the room without suffering any visible damage.

Why did they come up with this? Well, if the accused had "staged" a break-in by chucking a rock through from outside that would have looked exactly like a real break-in and give no possibilities for framing up Knox and Sollecito. So they made up some story where they faked it in a really strange way, so they could present it as evidence they were guilty.

It's one of the places where Mignini, Massei and Christiani went totally off the reservation in my humble opinion. It was total nonsense and not even necessary to the prosecution story.

It sounds like the prosecutor's theory was item 2 on my list, that is the rock was thrown from the inside and towards the interior side of the glass. The twist is that to explain the fact that there was glass shards intruding substantially in to the room, the judge/prosecutor theorized the rock somehow bounced off the closed exterior shudder back into the room and this explains both the fact that the rock was in the room and that there were glass shards distributed in the room substantially back from the window?

This was a testable theory at one point. As has been mentioned by different investigators the direction of the rock travel through the window could have been determined by looking at the glass fragments. I doubt the prosecution ever believed in the theory enough to want it tested though.

 

[Dan O.]

Has Amanda ever stated there were pictures of Meredith on her hard drive? I know others have inferred it, but I don't think it's something we should assume and/or look forward to.

“Amanda and Meredith were very friendly,” said Janet Huff, Knox’s aunt. “Just two days before (the murder) they attended the Chocolate Festival together and had been out together to local pubs. There were quite a few photos of the two of them together in the days before her murder on Amanda's computer. Too bad the Italian police completely fried it when trying to get into it and were not able to retrieve a single thing.

It should be noted that the Chocolate Festival ended on October 21, 2007 so this event would be a couple of weeks before the murder not days.

 

[Mary_H]

​

It should be noted that the Chocolate Festival ended on October 21, 2007 so this event would be a couple of weeks before the murder not days.

I think that could be an inference. I could be wrong, but if it were me, I would have had the pictures on Facebook by that time and I would not have deleted them from my camera by that time. I'm not sure Amanda had used her camera much once she got to Perugia. There are not only no pictures of Meredith, there are few pictures of anything or anyone from the previous month.
ETA: I think Amanda and Raf had only myspace pages, not Facebook. Maybe it is not as photo-friendly.

 

[Antony]

I have posted an array of reasons actually - not just one.

And there are more.

I already explained several times why it makes no sense to try deduce the defendants are innocents based on this: it makes no sense to try deduce TOD with any useful accuracy based stomach content, and makes no sense to deduce innocence even based on TOD in general.

Well, of course others have pointed out ad nauseam that it's not "stomach contents" as such that's crucial - it's the absence of duodenum contents that show that TOD cannot possibly be much later than 9:30pm. And that's something that makes perfect sense to anyone who approaches this starting from the facts. (As for "innocence based on TOD", I won't repeat the scathing comments from others here.)

The trouble is that Mach's position, and that of the other PGP, has never been to start from the facts. It's conclusion-driven, and nothing can be allowed get in the way of the conclusion that the defendants are guilty, and that the methods of the Perugia police and prosecutors were beyond reproach. If the facts disagree with the conclusion, then it's the facts that are at fault.

 

[Samson]

Well, of course others have pointed out ad nauseam that it's not "stomach contents" as such that's crucial - it's the absence of duodenum contents that show that TOD cannot possibly be much later than 9:30pm. And that's something that makes perfect sense to anyone who approaches this starting from the facts. (As for "innocence based on TOD", I won't repeat the scathing comments from others here.)

The trouble is that Mach's position, and that of the other PGP, has never been to start from the facts. It's conclusion-driven, and nothing can be allowed get in the way of the conclusion that the defendants are guilty, and that the methods of the Perugia police and prosecutors were beyond reproach. If the facts disagree with the conclusion, then it's the facts that are at fault.

So Sollecito watches cartoons as Meredith lies dying . On a serious note is the computer evidence new? It seems pretty important if so.

 

[Mary_H]

I have a problem with this part in particular. A transcript of a recording need only be performed one time. After that, who cares how many parties request a copy? It's not like it has to be transcribed over and over again every time a party requests a copy.

Also, no one is suggesting "all investigation activities" be recorded, only that interrogations be recorded, as they are pretty much everywhere and probably were that night in Perugia as well.

I agree. In Seattle, you buy the audio recording from the court and hire someone else to do the transcribing for you. I bet that's how they do it in Italy, too. Nothing has to be transcribed until somebody needs a hard copy.

In fact, Mignini might have been better off if he had had the recordings transcribed, "edited," and then passed off those transcripts as verbatim. Minus the slapping, shouting and screaming. It would not have raised as many suspicions.

 

[Dan O.]

I think that could be an inference. I could be wrong, but if it were me, I would have had the pictures on Facebook by that time and I would not have deleted them from my camera by that time. I'm not sure Amanda had used her camera much once she got to Perugia. There are not only no pictures of Meredith, there are few pictures of anything or anyone from the previous month.
ETA: I think Amanda and Raf had only myspace pages, not Facebook. Maybe it is not as photo-friendly.

LG: So in your computer there were photographs of you and Meredith at the
Chocolate Festival?
<br><br>
AK: That, and pictures of us going around, and she asked me to take pictures of
her next to her window, where you could see the view. They're all in the computer.

Of course, in Italy, suspects are expected to lie. That's like saying that a suspect is assumed to be guilty.

 

[Mary_H]

I think they said that it would be impossible to restrain somebody with a knife because that never happens. That's why knifepoint rapes are unknown in the history of humanity.

Also, Meredith, having been taught kung fu, could easily have kicked ass. She would have spun Guede around over her head and thrown him right out of the broken window (well, unless he bounced off the shutter).

Too bad she hadn't been taught not to date a dirtbag who hangs around with criminals. Now that would have been some good self defense.

I love this post, Diocletus. I am wondering if the books that have portrayed the lovely environment of Umbria in autumn have cast a false, unfairly positive impression of what that place was really like, usefully feeding into the prosecutor's image of a murder most extraordinary and anomalous.

But..."drug dealers' paradise...""the highest rate of drug overdose deaths per capita in Italy...?" Almost sounds worse than downtown Vancouver, am I right, Bill?

 

[Mary_H]

Of course, in Italy, suspects are expected to lie. That's like saying that a suspect is assumed to be guilty.

Okay, thanks, that's helpful. I'm sure she didn't lie, since there is always a chance the data can be recovered.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Why did they come up with this? Well, if the accused had "staged" a break-in by chucking a rock through from outside that would have looked exactly like a real break-in and give no possibilities for framing up Knox and Sollecito. So they made up some story where they faked it in a really strange way, so they could present it as evidence they were guilty.

Heh. That's exactly it. But their made-up story doesn't fit the spray of glass in Filomena's room, which is consistent with a rock pitched from outside. It's pitiful.