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Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I have posted an array of reasons actually - not just one.

And there are more.

I already explained several times why it makes no sense to try deduce the defendants are innocents based on this: it makes no sense to try deduce TOD with any useful accuracy based stomach content, and makes no sense to deduce innocence even based on TOD in general.

You have posted an array of reasons, they just make no scientific or logical sense.

Pro-guilt posters have thrown all sorts of spaghetti at the wall trying to make up some reason why a t(lag) of five hours in a normal, healthy twenty-year-old with no drugs, alcohol or illness who consumed a small-to-moderate meal of perfectly ordinary food might be possible. However it's all been variations of the argument "lots of things make people's height vary, such as shoes and diet, so it's possible that the murderer was four meters tall". The premise is correct, t(lag) does vary, but not by remotely that much and not for such trivial reasons.

There is a reason why we call it the "peer reviewed literature" and not the "random person on the internet reviewed literature". The people making these arguments simply are not scientifically or statistically literate enough to be entitled to an opinion.

As for whether you can deduce TOD with great precision from stomach contents alone under normal conditions, of course you cannot. However if you combine eyewitness testimony, the location of the body, the state of the flat, Meredith's failure to call her mother, the phone records, Rudy's Skype conversation, stomach contents and body temperature you can narrow down the TOD substantially. Meredith was seen alive until 20:55 or so, and is incredibly unlikely to have lived much past 21:30 or so at most.

Lastly the claim that you cannot deduce innocence from the fact that the accused was provably somewhere else when the crime happened simply defies all logic.
 
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Rudy was behind her, holding the knife to her throat. That can be divined by the uninterupted blood splatter which shows there was no one in front of her when she was cut.
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True, but not if they were holding her by the elbows standing up and stretched out like a cross between them. Especially if the bruising at the back of her scalp is because her head was being violently pulled back by her hair, which wouldn't allow her to turn her head right or left to get blood on Amanda or Raffaele,

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yes it's way more logical to deduce this while someone is eating a pizza.

The new forensics, the science of pizza eating (and cooking)...

True Justice for Meredith is all about the pizza. Hail the pizza.

LE should be immediately advised to stop going to coffee and donut shops and instead spend all their time at pizza shops. That's where the real criminal's are.

How stupid can people get? That's a rhetorical question, because this forum thread has already proven how stupid that is,

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Didnt Edgardo Giobbi say Amanda was guilty because she too was eating pizza and not crying?

Edgardo can tell you anything about pizza and what it means to be eating pizza.
 
Have you seen the entire show? Please point out where I am comparing it to another TV show or have ever said the climb was impossible.

I think you may be confusing me for somebody else. I did not claim that you said the climb was impossible. However you seemed to me to be saying that despite the clear video showing that the climb was not terribly hard, that we should not believe that the climb was not terribly hard because an unrelated piece supported a kooky JFK theory.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, do we agree that the video proves that the climb is not terribly difficult?
 
Since Mignini's prosecution is a luminescent beacon of truth and transparency, I am sure it was their team of experts who revealed that the cartoon show Naruto started playing at 9:26pm (near T.O.D. in a murder case), right? This certainly doesn't support an inculpatory narrative, and could even be used to construct an alibi (heaven forbid).

I think the key lesson that the prosecution and Carabinieri should take from this case, is that in order to vindictively prosecute innocent people, they *really* need to learn better hard-drive destroying techniques that actually damage the recording surfaces. But only do this after you recover data that suits your narrative, is consistent with it, or even better: is not inconsistent with it. Destroying the control circuitry (which even still does require some focused effort) is clearly insufficient -- maybe someone will get fired for not completely doing their job.

I know it's been rehashed a million times, but I can't resist: I wonder if accidental computer equipment destruction during forensics investigation, by computer experts, is a world wide phenomena or if there really are any other reported examples. -sd


I am quite sure there are other examples where a hard drive is destroyed by police experts. But 4 different hard drives all related to the same case seems rather cultist and devilish to me...

Yummi why is Knox computer data unimportant? How do you know what is on there? Are photos of AK and MK attending the choco festival or a classical musical concert together important in a case where the prosecution contends that they hate each other?

Please make better and more logical arguments. These are failing you quite badly.
 
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True, but not if they were holding her by the elbows standing up and stretched out like a cross between them. Especially if the bruising at the back of her scalp is because her head was being violently pulled back by her hair, which wouldn't allow her to turn her head right or left to get blood on Amanda or Raffaele,

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Or they weren't even there, which is why this desperate struggle must be choreographed perfectly to preclude them leaving any evidence including having three people behind and to the side when that cut is made. Imagine that for a moment, if there were three people there, with two holding Meredith to the side, why wouldn't the third person be in front of her, as opposed to dealing with her from the back?
 
Which was when, July 30th 2009 for a trial that was nearly over and had started officially in October or so of 2008? Incidentally, last time we went at this you claimed that those records were generally not made available in Italian trials, thus when Stefanoni wrote the RTIGF, supposedly a comprehensive account of the forensic work done, and failed to mention that they tested negative for blood she would have had the expectation the TMB negatives she omitted would never see the light of day.

As for the trial documentation: I said that the data requested to Stefanoni are not included in the trial files. I think I used the expression "included/deposited in investigation file" or included in technical reports. And I mean specifically the SAL, egrams and raw data.

This that I state could be theoretically verifiable, because Stefanoni herself states - before Micheli - that she would never include this documentation in the file, in any case. If you decide to make a research in documentation from other cases (prior to 2008) you might find out that what I report is true.

Hence, nothing was hidden.

That is without doubt a lie of omission.

Whithout doubt, it is not. (your interpretation of it as a 'lie' would be irrelevant anyway, this must be said; and bear in mind that TMB test results themselves are logically irrelevant).
There are other omissions in her technical report, some of which are irrelevant. But let's look at the point.

To me, it is not, because, 1) the test themselves were accessible to the defence experts (they were summoned to attend the tests).
Because 2) it was Stefanoni herself who provided the documentation about TMB tests; if you assume she intended to falsify the data, then why didn't she fabricate fake positive records, or why didn't she just withhold them or destroy them? Stefanoni's offering documentation of negative results is inconsistent with a theory of an alleged intent to conceal such data. She did not "had the expectation" as you say, because she provided them. Then it is not a deception also because 3) she had testified about having performed the TMB tests, she talked about them even before depositing her RTIGF with Massei's court, she said tests were performed and answered all questions thorughly with no problem.

Your entire argument is reduced to complaining that Stefanoni did not write down about the TMB tests in the technical report she provided to the defence on the preliminary investigation phase. I have my theory about why this information was not included at the early stage, and I found this to be totally insufficient as to object to Stefanoni's work.

It is also false to assert that Stefanoni declared she ever found the luminol footprints were in blood for sure. She acually declared something opposite to that:

Stefanoni 2009 may 22. p. 83 said:
La campionatura denominata L1 nel verbale di sopralluogo è vittima, quindi non si può dire se è sangue con certezza, naturalmente, perché è luminescente al luminol ma non… appunto avendo il luminol altre possibilità di fluorescenza possiamo soltanto dire profilo genetico della vittima...

In such passages Stefanoni points out that luminol is only presumptive and she can't say it's blood.

Furthermore, last time we went at this I knew I was forgetting something regarding what was said in court about the blood tests. I thought maybe it was someone else who'd claimed no other blood tests were done, instead of Stefanoni, which was why it could be claimed with a straight face she hadn't 'lied' about it in court. That wasn't it though.

It was something else, and your recent posts reminded me of it: you used to make the argument that a TMB test wasn't officially a blood test being as it wasn't a confirmatory test, thus when it was said in court that no other blood tests were done (outside the luminol which is also a presumptive and not confirmatory test) it wasn't 'technically' a lie.

Yes, that's a lie too.

As far as I know, what you find in Stefanoni's testimony is: Ghirga asks some questions that are clearly only about the specific confirmatory test for blood (pages 58-59 of May 23.) it is very clear that these questions are only abot confirmatory tests; Maori asks whether other tests were performed on a specific spot on the corridoor floor adjacent to the bathroom door, and Stefanoni answered they only sprayed luminol there (p. 148 may 23.); Maori asks about TMB tests on the bra clasp (p. 159). I am not aware about other questions and answers on the point, but I may have missed them.
 
I think that the point of the reference to the Youtube video is that it is now impossible for Nencini to write that the climb was "impossible" (unless he wants to look like a complete idiot to all of the Youtube-watching world, which he doesn't).

So the climb was possible. There is glass under the clothes. What else does he have? The nail? The scuff marks? Not a problem for climber guy.

So what now? Are they going to say that there was a staged break-in beyond a reasonable doubt because Rudy didn't stuff his pockets with Filomena's cheap jewelry before he took a crap, and the cops didn't happen to see any backward-flying glass outside the building during their smoke break?

I think not. I think that the staging issue can be decided only if they independently decide that Knox/Sollecito killed Kercher, and it cannot be decided preliminarily and then used as evidence to support a finding of guilt for the murder.

Proviso: I have serious reservations about the intelligence of these people.


No he left the costume jewelery and knock off bags...but I bet he stuffed his pockets full with her stash...probably her coke, hash, butter and earwax. And she is going to report that missing right??? Didn't Laura and Filomena ask Knox to lie about the drugs?
 
Are photos of AK and MK attending the choco festival or a classical musical concert together important?


Any photo showing the last few weeks of Meredith enjoying life is very important. How could these be forgotten?! Somebody needs to put up a site to collect donations to have whatever data is on that drive recovered so Meredith can be remembered.

ETA: I already discussed the drive and it's history with an engineer from The Data Rescue Center and he thought there was a good chance of getting the data back. This is one of the real recovery services and not a fly-by-night that does the easy stuff and sticks you with a huge bill. They are now familiar with the Toshiba drives (2 years ago they said they couldn't do it because of the new technology used).
 

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As for the trial documentation: I said that the data requested to Stefanoni are not included in the trial files. I think I used the expression "included/deposited in investigation file" or included in technical reports. And I mean specifically the SAL, egrams and raw data.

This that I state could be theoretically verifiable, because Stefanoni herself states - before Micheli - that she would never include this documentation in the file, in any case. If you decide to make a research in documentation from other cases (prior to 2008) you might find out that what I report is true.

Hence, nothing was hidden.



Whithout doubt, it is not. (your interpretation of it as a 'lie' would be irrelevant anyway, this must be said; and bear in mind that TMB test results themselves are logically irrelevant).
There are other omissions in her technical report, some of which are irrelevant. But let's look at the point.

To me, it is not, because, 1) the test themselves were accessible to the defence experts (they were summoned to attend the tests).
Because 2) it was Stefanoni herself who provided the documentation about TMB tests; if you assume she intended to falsify the data, then why didn't she fabricate fake positive records, or why didn't she just withhold them or destroy them? Stefanoni's offering documentation of negative results is inconsistent with a theory of an alleged intent to conceal such data. She did not "had the expectation" as you say, because she provided them. Then it is not a deception also because 3) she had testified about having performed the TMB tests, she talked about them even before depositing her RTIGF with Massei's court, she said tests were performed and answered all questions thorughly with no problem.

Your entire argument is reduced to complaining that Stefanoni did not write down about the TMB tests in the technical report she provided to the defence on the preliminary investigation phase. I have my theory about why this information was not included at the early stage, and I found this to be totally insufficient as to object to Stefanoni's work.

It is also false to assert that Stefanoni declared she ever found the luminol footprints were in blood for sure. She acually declared something opposite to that:



In such passages Stefanoni points out that luminol is only presumptive and she can't say it's blood.



As far as I know, what you find in Stefanoni's testimony is: Ghirga asks some questions that are clearly only about the specific confirmatory test for blood (pages 58-59 of May 23.) it is very clear that these questions are only abot confirmatory tests; Maori asks whether other tests were performed on a specific spot on the corridoor floor adjacent to the bathroom door, and Stefanoni answered they only sprayed luminol there (p. 148 may 23.); Maori asks about TMB tests on the bra clasp (p. 159). I am not aware about other questions and answers on the point, but I may have missed them.


This was Dec 18th 2007. So it is simple. Where on this 18 Dec. video is the place where we can watch these TMB tests being done? The defense experts were outside in a van ...so this must be videoed correct? Please be so kind to provide a time stamp so that we can quickly get to the bottom of this matter about TMB tests.
 
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Or they weren't even there, which is why this desperate struggle must be choreographed perfectly to preclude them leaving any evidence including having three people behind and to the side when that cut is made. Imagine that for a moment, if there were three people there, with two holding Meredith to the side, why wouldn't the third person be in front of her, as opposed to dealing with her from the back?
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I agree. In order for the three to be involved, you need a choreographed fight (made up fight like in the movies), not a real fight where anything can and will happen,

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Didnt Edgardo Giobbi say Amanda was guilty because she too was eating pizza and not crying?

Edgardo can tell you anything about pizza and what it means to be eating pizza.
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That's who made me think of this. The new Pizza School of Forensics would be well advised to sign him to a contract now, before somebody else gets him,

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ETA They could put that new school of forensics in Pisa, Italy. The New School of Forensics in Pisa, Italy. When you absolutely, positively have to get them in jail by tonight, a rewording of an old UPS commercial.
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For our purposes it would have been great to have 3 guys like Rudy in size and build have at it. A few tries before filming would have been fine. The first move the rock climber makes from the crouched position doesn't seem an untrained one, but now we will hear from all the Olympic athletes here that naturally used the move as mere tikes to scale tall buildings etc.

Btw, everyone already knew the SS had killed him :p

I agree Grinder, but the point really is that it could be done. The prosecution's case is that it couldn't be done. From my perspective, the moment I saw the climber standing on the grate of the lower window, it becomes obvious that it can be done. Maybe not by a fat 50 year old but by pretty much any athletic 20 year old male with reasonable upper body strength. When I was that age if I could get my elbows on a ledge I could always pull myself up and in.

Does anyone really have a doubt that Rudy could accomplish this?
 
A good point, if the postals had gotten there at 12:30 to 12:45 that begs the question what were they doing all that time? In reality they showed up, Amanda and Raffaele showed them the bathroom and the door, then one of Filomena's boys showed up followed quickly by Filomena and the other one, there wasn't much time before the door got broken down. However if it becomes on the order of a half hour, why were they sticking around so long and what were they doing while they did? Contaminating the scene? Ogling Amanda? Hanging around so they could score some weed? :p

I think Batttistelli is conflating the time he reached the cottage's porch (12:59 pm ?) with the time (15+ minutes earlier) when he and his partner first arrived in the vicinity and Battistelli got out of the car to try to figure out where the cottage is, given that they were confused by the change of street names, and his partner then drove off for 15 minutes to circle the neighborhood and come back to where Battistelli was waiting for him. But - CAN YOU TRUST A POLICE OFFICER TO TELL THE TRUTH if he has lied to avoid embarrasement? Battistelli already testified that he did not enter Meredith's room and lift the duvet - even though seeing if he she was alive and if he could save her life would seem to be critical. Marco Altieri is adament that he saw Battistelli enter the room and lift the duvet. Based on Altieri's testimony that he DID see Battistelli enter Meredith's room and lift the duvet, and that it would be natural and critical to see if she is alive and needs critical aid, I believe Battistelli lied in his court testimony and his testimony on everything needs to be treated as tainted or false.
 
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I have a problem with this part in particular. A transcript of a recording need only be performed one time. After that, who cares how many parties request a copy? It's not like it has to be transcribed over and over again every time a party requests a copy.

Also, no one is suggesting "all investigation activities" be recorded, only that interrogations be recorded, as they are pretty much everywhere and probably were that night in Perugia as well.

Sure they were recorded. Yummi is making more foolish argument. They wire tap 30 thousand plus calls of RS family (why?) but don't have money for a interrogation recording? Nonsense. Aren't allowed? More foolishness.

Michele the murderer and rapist of Sara Scazzis dead body was interrogated on tape and he confessed on tape. And then the police let him go because he could not move a rock on his own. As dumb a claim as RG couldn't climb a wall or the Milan police could not detain RG in jail. Nonsense. Utter foolish argument and logic.

The police and prosecutor are guilty of helping RG kill Miss Kercher. They are now engaged in trying to cover that up. Simple really.
 
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Any photo showing the last few weeks of Meredith enjoying life is very important. How could these be forgotten?! Somebody needs to put up a site to collect donations to have whatever data is on that drive recovered so Meredith can be remembered.
ETA: I already discussed the drive and it's history with an engineer from The Data Rescue Center and he thought there was a good chance of getting the data back. This is one of the real recovery services and not a fly-by-night that does the easy stuff and sticks you with a huge bill. They are now familiar with the Toshiba drives (2 years ago they said they couldn't do it because of the new technology used).
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I wish I had some cash to help here. That is such a good idea Dan.

This is something that I wish maybe Amanda and Raffaele could get behind publicly and give copies to Meredith's parents also. Maybe even some pro-guilt folks could help also.

If anyone thinks this is a disgusting and disrespectful thing for Amanda and Raffaele to do, they can stick their complaints up Maresca's ^ss right next to the projector he used to show Meredith's death photos,

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I think Batttistelli is conflating the time he reached the cottage's porch (12:59? pm) with the time (15+ minutes earlier) when he and his partner first arrived in the vicinity and Battistelli got out of the car to try to figure out where the cottage is, given that they were confused by the change of street names, and his partner then drove off for 15 minutes to circle the neighborhood and come back to where Battistelli was waiting for him. But - CAN YOU TRUST A POLICE OFFICER TO TELL THE TRUTH if he has lied to avoid embarrasement? Battistelli already testified that he did not enter Meredith's room and lift the duvet - even though seeing if he she was alive and if he could save her life would seem to be critical. Marco Altieri is adament that he saw Battistelli enter the room and lift the duvet. Based on Altieri's testimony that he DID see Battistelli enter Meredith's room and lift the duvet, and that it would be natural and critical to see if she is alive and needs critical aid, I believe Battistelli lied in his court testimony and his testimony on everything needs to be treated as tainted or false.

How many times do officials in Perugia lie?

Battistelli is in a bit of a double bind on this one. Any competent cross examiner would simply ask, "How did you ascertain the victim was deceased?"

Mignini said that he did not "flip the switch" because of budget problems... on the biggest case to hit Perugia, probably ever.

Mignini quoted Article 63 to Ficarra, which stops the interrogation, which also requires the suspect to have a lawyer. Article 63 specifically says that the interrogation must stop.

Mignini tells Drew Griffin that he does not stop.

How many times does this need to happen before, at the very least, the benefit of the doubt granted to police/prosecutor/judges is lost?
 
Everything is based on the pizza, look to the Pizza

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Lol, this guy......smh
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The whole case from the guilt side is almost all based on Pizza theory.

When the pizza was eaten, how it was cooked (uncooked pizza dough can throw off forensics), and how it's eaten can identify murderers,

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Mignini said that he did not "flip the switch" because of budget problems... on the biggest case to hit Perugia, probably ever.

There was a major foreign language problem between the police and Amanda. The police needed to be sure they understood what she was saying in response to the interrogators' questions. Of course they recorded it!

Furthermore . . . Giobbi said he was in the control room watching her body language. He said he could hear her screaming. To watch her body language from the control room and hear her means that he was watching her live on videocamera with audio. Mignini joined him later in the control room. Yes, they were video recording. But they don't want the public (Italian and American) or the courts to see and hear what they were doing to Amanda so they lie about it and destroyed (or hid) the evidence.
 
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