Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

Hopefully it will give them time to review some transcripts so they can determine for themselves who is making stuff up about the evidence and who is not. I expect Bongiorno's arguments to be very strong.

I do too. I remain of the firm opinion that Knox's Italian legal representation fell well short of the required standard, and I hope that she will not face an unjust outcome as a result. It absolutely should not be the case that Bongiorno is repeatedly tasked with effectively defending both Sollecito (who IS her client) and Knox (who is not) - regardless of the obvious linkage between the two defendants. Dalla Vedova and Ghirga simply haven't been up to the job and have not pulled their weight in courtroom argument, in my opinion.

 

[Poppy1016]

I do too. I remain of the firm opinion that Knox's Italian legal representation fell well short of the required standard, and I hope that she will not face an unjust outcome as a result. It absolutely should not be the case that Bongiorno is repeatedly tasked with effectively defending both Sollecito (who IS her client) and Knox (who is not) - regardless of the obvious linkage between the two defendants. Dalla Vedova and Ghirga simply haven't been up to the job and have not pulled their weight in courtroom argument, in my opinion.

I too am of the opinion that the defense team was not strong enough. Do you happen to know if any of the American advisors are assisting in any way? They need to be much more forceful and firey.

 

[GreyFox]

I do too. I remain of the firm opinion that Knox's Italian legal representation fell well short of the required standard, and I hope that she will not face an unjust outcome as a result. It absolutely should not be the case that Bongiorno is repeatedly tasked with effectively defending both Sollecito (who IS her client) and Knox (who is not) - regardless of the obvious linkage between the two defendants. Dalla Vedova and Ghirga simply haven't been up to the job and have not pulled their weight in courtroom argument, in my opinion.

Agreed ! That Jessica Rabbit line helped pull a rabbit out of a hat the last time. (Still going to take more than that to finish the job.)
She separated the men Woman from the boys last time.

Knox's lawyers already took a spanking from the Judge this time around. I'm still not impressed. If nothing else they could have brought up things in this trial that would help favor Knox in an extradition trial at home.

On the other hand...Who really knows anything about the job they are doing.

All we ever get is second hand information from biased reporters and a local yummi nut job who runs around here as if he was Mignini himself. Constantly proclaiming the defense never brought this or that up.

 

[katy_did]

On the other hand...Who really knows anything about the job they are doing.

Yes, that's what stops me being too harsh in my criticism of them. I've been pretty unimpressed by their performances based on the reports that have come out, and I get the feeling Nencini is definitely not Dalla Vedova's biggest fan, but on the other hand I don't know for sure how effective they were since I wasn't there. I do picture Bongiorno rolling her eyes and muttering under her breath every time one of Amanda's lawyers gets up to speak, though.

Having read bits and pieces from Crini's closing, I can't imagine they were very much worse than him anyway (not unless Crini came across much better in person than he does in writing!).

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, that's what stops me being too harsh in my criticism of them. I've been pretty unimpressed by their performances based on the reports that have come out, and I get the feeling Nencini is definitely not Dalla Vedova's biggest fan, but on the other hand I don't know for sure how effective they were since I wasn't there. I do picture Bongiorno rolling her eyes and muttering under her breath every time one of Amanda's lawyers gets up to speak, though.

Having read bits and pieces from Crini's closing, I can't imagine they were very much worse than him anyway (not unless Crini came across much better in person than he does in writing!).

I agree it's impossible to make a definitive assessment of the performance of dalla Vedova and Ghirga in court, given that we are relying on selective reporting, and given that there's a language/culture/justice system barrier to cross.

But I still think it's possible to suggest that Knox's two main Italian lawyers have not provided her with a service of sufficient quality and power. I think they dropped the ball massively in the Massei trial, and believe they made little impact on the Hellmann trial or this current appeal trial. As far as I am aware, neither lawyer has ever drilled down properly into the critical points underpinning Knox's defence. Furthermore, reports suggest that neither lawyer has demonstrated the capability of establishing a rapport with the judicial panel - something that is crucial in terms of then being able to persuade them of your client's case.

I feel that the US consulate and embassy fell down significantly on their responsibilities at the time when Knox's mother was selecting legal assistance. They should have only presented her with a list of lawyers with appropriate criminal defence credentials, who also had sufficient English language skills to be able to represent a US native English speaker properly. Dalla Vedova, I'm afraid, should never have been on the list. But what's more, I feel Dalla Vedova should have refused to take the work, and might indeed have gone to the trouble of locating an appropriate bilingual criminal defence lawyer (preferably with experience of defending serious crimes of violence) to propose to Knox as a better option.

Likewise, the selection of Ghirga appears to have been made in a non-optimum way: IIRC, the mayor of Perugia suggested his name, since Ghirga is a mate of his who also has dealings with the city council. At least Ghirga had prior experience of criminal work, but at a much more mundane and lower-profile level. Personally, I don't think he's cut out for the intensity and depth of a high-profile murder trial.

I'm sure that Dalla Vedova and Ghirga are both decent, pleasant men who have Knox's best interests close to their hearts. And I am guessing that they have put in an awfully large amount of time, effort and energy into constructing and conducting her defence. Unfortunately, in my opinion, none of that counts for much if you can't jump the final hurdle: convincing the court to acquit your client.

There are certain professional male tennis players who play in a fluent, talented way, but who "choke" when it comes to the small number of crucial points that determine the outcome of a tennis match. To me, it looks like dalla Vedova and Ghirga keep getting offered fairly simple put-away volleys at set point, but keep dumping the volley into the net. Let's hope that Bongiorno plays a good enough match to compensate for her team-mates......

 

[Bill Williams]

On the other hand...Who really knows anything about the job they are doing.

Yes, that's what stops me being too harsh in my criticism of them. I've been pretty unimpressed by their performances based on the reports that have come out, and I get the feeling Nencini is definitely not Dalla Vedova's biggest fan, but on the other hand I don't know for sure how effective they were since I wasn't there. I do picture Bongiorno rolling her eyes and muttering under her breath every time one of Amanda's lawyers gets up to speak, though.

Having read bits and pieces from Crini's closing, I can't imagine they were very much worse than him anyway (not unless Crini came across much better in person than he does in writing!).

Everyone sit down.... I'm about to say something nice about Barbie Nadeau.

She was the featured, on-site video correspondent for CNN the night of the Dec 2009 conviction at the hands of Judge Massei. Despite all the truly knuckleheaded things she's said about this travesty of justice, that night she got it 100% correct. She tends to stray from the facts a wee bit when under the thrall of The Beast or with Winterbottom and eating overpriced salads these days with Kate Beckinsale....

But that night she said to CNN, "The prosecution case was weak, but the defence case was weaker. This could very well be overturned at appeal."

The rest is from memory, and everyone here can head over to YouTube to find this clip, but she also said something to the effect that the Sollecito defence team and the Knox defence team were unco-ordinated. She implied something that was actually great advice to the pair, who had just been found guilty of something they'd not done....

... she implied that the two defence teams needed to start acting as one. Indeed, at the Hellmann trial, Biongiorno did come up with that wonderful soundbyte, "She's not bad, like Jessica Rabbit she's just drawn that way," which, when you think of it, could have fallen completely flat, like Knox wearing the "All you need is love" T-shirt to court.

There's no way of knowing beforehand if the soundbyte will schmeck....

But the sound byte also is no replacement, as Nadeau observed, for a coordinated defence. Sound bytes alone will not cut it. Esp. when a weak prosecution effort is allowed to win.... in that case the defence should not need to even prepare a defence! But in the uneven Italian playing field, Sollecito and Knox either hang together or hang separately, as the saying goes.

I, therefore, find it hard to criticize ANY of the lawyers, Once forces are joined, they all become role players. And the point is not to be a good lawyer or a bad lawyer, the point is to be a winning lawyer.

 

[Bill Williams]

You can lead jurors to the evidence, but you cannot make them believe it.

http://groundreport.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder-conspiracy-the-evidence-was-manipulated-from-the-start/

The bolding is mine for emphasis....

The Perugian PR Campaign begins

I read the article and several things struck me as suspicious. They show that the Perugian authorities were briefing the press with information intended to mislead and set the investigation on the wrong track even before anyone had been arrested. When the Daily Mail hit the newsstands on the morning of November 6th, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba were in custody, but the story was written on the 5th and the Perugian PR machine was already in full swing by then. The railroading had begun.

The Mail story is typical of what was in the British newspapers at the time. The London Sunday Times reporter was briefed by the police/prosecution two days before Knox was arrested and was told that the chief suspect was a woman who was close to Meredith. The net was closing.

So what was so suspicious about the Mail article? Quote:

“One theory being looked at is that she was murdered after a consensual sexual encounter with her murderer which became violent for some unknown reason.”

Meredith was dead with her throat cut. Why did the police believe, or seek to make the media believe that anything about her murder was consensual? The appearance of her brutally stabbed body suggested nothing consensual at all. What scenario were they trying to set up?

Was the semen stain tested or not?

 

[Mary_H]

You can lead jurors to the evidence, but you cannot make them believe it.

http://groundreport.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder-conspiracy-the-evidence-was-manipulated-from-the-start/

The bolding is mine for emphasis....

Nigel brings up a good point by implying that the semen may have been sampled while still wet, which makes a lot of sense. They could have just scraped some up, and there would have been no need to cut up the fabric, as so adamantly opposed by Machiavelli.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>The UW needs to know that one of their employees is running a board while at work.<snip>

Ugh, I see. He's a co-administrator at PMF and also on the payroll at UW's school of dentistry as an expert in educational technology.<snip>

When Raffaele appeared at the University of Washington for an interview with King5 News, a huge photographic image of Meredith suddenly appeared on the wall behind them. It was projected from the control room at the back of the auditorium. As I recall, some technicians tried to turn it off, but were not able to. Apparently it had been set up on a computer that was being operated remotely, if such a thing is possible. Obviously, it was the work of Randy Jackson, and complaints were made, but whether it was ever followed up on is anybody's guess. He still works at UW.

Kathleen Jackson was in the audience, taking pictures of every person who walked in, lol.

The UW's position on this is somewhat inscrutable. Amanda has a good friend (a professor) in the Italian Department, but when the entire department was contacted a few years ago asking for volunteers to help translate Injustice in Perugia, nobody responded.

 

[Bill Williams]

You can lead jurors to the evidence, but you cannot make them believe it.

http://groundreport.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder-conspiracy-the-evidence-was-manipulated-from-the-start/

The bolding is mine for emphasis....

Nigel brings up a good point by implying that the semen may have been sampled while still wet, which makes a lot of sense. They could have just scraped some up, and there would have been no need to cut up the fabric, as so adamantly opposed by Machiavelli.

Out of all the dietrology which Machiavelli has offered here in his posts, the one which make no sense at all is the "explanation" of why it was mete and right for the PLE not to test that stain.

Can anyone explain, at all, why that was not the first thing tested? Judge Massei, in convicting the pair, cited that even if it had been tested there is no way to "time stamp" when it had been deposited, because, as Massei explained, "Meredith had an active sex life."

Can anyone explain this reasoning? I read what Machiavelli typed about this four and five times and could not make out what he was talking about.

I mean for mercy's sake, it was presumed semen found on the pillow underneath a murdered girl's hips!!!!!! If it had been Rudy's that would have perhaps added nothing more to what was already known - he did it.

If it had been Raffaele's, I would be a guilter cackling away on the PMF sites.

And yet, Judge Massei ignored this "time stamp" reasoning when he said that finding |knox's biological material" mixed in with Meredith's blood was proof Knox had been there that night... that the "biological material" could have only come off during the act of Knox cleaning herself following the murder.

In the very cottage and bathroom Knox shared with Meredith.... presumably, Massei had checked the time stamp on this "biological material".

It is sometimes hard to fathom the rationale's people have to maintain guilt in this for those two. The non-testing of the presumed semen stain takes the cake.

Yet the Kerchers wrote before the Nencini trial that ALL evidence be examined. Everyone here should make up their mind about the quality of Italian jusitce, or the quality of Maresca for not following the wishes of his clients.

 

[AmyStrange]

Sorry, if this has already been posted:
-

'I have to accept that the Kerchers believe I’m guilty': Amanda Knox joins Twitter and claims she wants to 'honor' Meredith
PUBLISHED: 19:05 EST, 28 December 2013 | UPDATED: 20:25 EST, 28 December 2013
By HUGO DANIEL IN LOS ANGELES

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...redith-Kerchers-family-think-shes-guilty.html

"Amanda Knox has linked to Meredith Kercher's family's fundraising page on her blog and Twitter account

"The family's lawyer asked her to remove the links

"Knox has acknowledged that Kercher's family believe she is guilty in the case
She is currently being retried for the crime in Perugia, Italy, but is not attending the trial... "

-

 

[kwill]

Out of all the dietrology which Machiavelli has offered here in his posts, the one which make no sense at all is the "explanation" of why it was mete and right for the PLE not to test that stain.

Can anyone explain, at all, why that was not the first thing tested? Judge Massei, in convicting the pair, cited that even if it had been tested there is no way to "time stamp" when it had been deposited, because, as Massei explained, "Meredith had an active sex life."

Wait. Was Massei suggesting that even if the stain had been RG semen, it would have been meaningless because she may have been his willing partner at some other time? Or was he saying that her active sex life may have included Raffaele, also at some time not the night of the murder?

Wtf. That might be legitimately called criminal incompetence.

 

[kwill]

When Raffaele appeared at the University of Washington for an interview with King5 News, a huge photographic image of Meredith suddenly appeared on the wall behind them. It was projected from the control room at the back of the auditorium. As I recall, some technicians tried to turn it off, but were not able to. Apparently it had been set up on a computer that was being operated remotely, if such a thing is possible. Obviously, it was the work of Randy Jackson, and complaints were made, but whether it was ever followed up on is anybody's guess. He still works at UW.

Kathleen Jackson was in the audience, taking pictures of every person who walked in, lol.

That is completely creepy. I wonder what she was trying to accomplish?

 

[Mary_H]

That is completely creepy. I wonder what she was trying to accomplish?

Good question; maybe she just likes subterfuge. She must have a file with a lot of pictures of the people who were there. She was also writing a mile a minute, taking copious notes. Probably recording the time each person came in, who they were with, etc. Someone asked her what she was doing and she said she was just interested in the case.

 

[AmyStrange]

I've been reading rumours here and other places that Rudy Guede could possibly be released in a year or two? Is this true?

 

[Bill Williams]

I've been reading rumours here and other places that Rudy Guede could possibly be released in a year or two? Is this true?

IIRC he's eligible for release this year. Maybe next year at the latest. This is what Mignini has wrought.

 

[Bill Williams]

Out of all the dietrology which Machiavelli has offered here in his posts, the one which make no sense at all is the "explanation" of why it was mete and right for the PLE not to test that stain.

Can anyone explain, at all, why that was not the first thing tested? Judge Massei, in convicting the pair, cited that even if it had been tested there is no way to "time stamp" when it had been deposited, because, as Massei explained, "Meredith had an active sex life."

Wait. Was Massei suggesting that even if the stain had been RG semen, it would have been meaningless because she may have been his willing partner at some other time? Or was he saying that her active sex life may have included Raffaele, also at some time not the night of the murder?

Wtf. That might be legitimately called criminal incompetence.

If I were Machiavelli responding to you, I'd call you a liar for the suggestion. I'd dare you to point out where Massei said this. Strictly speaking, Massei nowhere directly says this. Machiavelli has as his logical exit strategy Massei's legalistic decalration (as below), "therefore, a purely explorative activity, [which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested."

I am not Machiavelli. I believe that reasonable inferences can be drawn, and that yours is a very reasonable inference. This is what Massei wrote in his motivations report, released in early 2010....

Professor Anna Aprile was examined next, on questions relating to the sexual violence. She gave evidence of the presence of signs, which led to the assertion that Meredith Kercher had been sexually active shortly before dying.

In this regard, what has been previously observed on the subject is called to mind; with specific reference to the stains found on the pillowcase, particular mention of which was made by Sollecito’s defence *team+ during the trial and in the related illustrative memorandum, the following should be noted: even if a genetic investigation established the spermatic nature of these stains, such an investigation, as a rule, would not allow these stains to be dated and, in particular, it would not be possible to establish that they had been deposited on the night on which Meredith was killed. It having furthermore been established that Meredith had an active sexual life and at times had intercourse in her own room (cf. on this point the statements of her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi) such an investigation, besides not being of a strictly necessary nature due to the impossibility of dating [i.e. establishing the date] (cf. what was elucidated on this aspect by the genetic experts), might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity, [which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested.

This would be laughable if it was not about the the depraved murder of an innocent. Massei misses completely that if the presumed semen stain was Rudy's, then the prosecution would have had to have argued consensual sex at some other time..... to make this stain not part of the murder.

Of course if it was Raffaele's, I would be a guilter. Yet reading this bit of inexplicable silliness from an Italian criminal judge makes me feel that the courts there were not interested in True Justice for Meredith Kercher.

 

[RandyN]

When Raffaele appeared at the University of Washington for an interview with King5 News, a huge photographic image of Meredith suddenly appeared on the wall behind them. It was projected from the control room at the back of the auditorium. As I recall, some technicians tried to turn it off, but were not able to. Apparently it had been set up on a computer that was being operated remotely, if such a thing is possible. Obviously, it was the work of Randy Jackson, and complaints were made, but whether it was ever followed up on is anybody's guess. He still works at UW.

Kathleen Jackson was in the audience, taking pictures of every person who walked in, lol.

The UW's position on this is somewhat inscrutable. Amanda has a good friend (a professor) in the Italian Department, but when the entire department was contacted a few years ago asking for volunteers to help translate Injustice in Perugia, nobody responded.

Yes Randy Jackson aka Fly By Night...aka the projector guy at UW. I guess UW has no policy about employees administering and posting to hate sites during work hours. Isn't Latoya errr Mrs Jackson also an employee of UW?

Creepy doesn't come close to what this group proclaims and since the key administrators all live quite near Miss Knox families and in fact Piggy Ganog even stalked the Knox or was it Mellas homes counting and posting about the number of shrubs or something idiotic like that....hopefully the Seattle police and FBI are monitoring these neighbors, whack jobs and projectionists. Also I expect that Grinder is keeping watch over them all.

 

[RandyN]

Grinder - I am not just saying all this because you and I have crossed swords before....

.... but there are only two people in the universe who pretty much HAVE TO defer to the Italian judicial system... namely Raffaele and Amanda. Raffaele already had this (briefly) put to the test after he addressed the court in Florence. The very airplane he was on, leaving Italy, was halted on the tarmac while they got permission to go off with him on board. That permission came from no-less than the prosecutor himself, Crini.

Crini, apparently, does not deem Sollecito a flight risk (one of the criteria of hold someone in detention) even though he's on a friggin airplane out fo the country!!!!

But to the point, Sollecito and Knox not only have to accede to the final decision of the Italian process, no matter how daffy, but the intervening rules as well.

You, I and CoulsdonUK are not so bound. All CoulsdonUK has done is say he will be bound by what Italy says - I cannot find any post of his which says that we should similarly be so bound.

In a sense, I think he's beating you at your own game of being "devil's advocate". All he's saying is that we here on this obscure posting-service can bleat all we want. In a sense, that's true, but neither yours, nor mine, nor his comments matter a bucket of spit compared to what Italy is going to register about all this according to their laws and (somewhat wacky) practises.

Raffaele yes. Amanda no. To suggest that Italy could come here to present its case against her in a certain appeal of extradition and not be COMPLETELY LAUGHED OUT OF OUR COUNTRY is simply wrong thinking and an unrealistic view of what this case actually has for evidence, witnesses, motive, time line, plus the strong indications of police abuse, corruption and malfeasance which flows then to the mockery Italy calls a justice system.

This group if 2 or 20 is revealing to the world a bass ackwards country of liars and thieves...and that's just the cops and prosecutors and judges. If Italians wish to go along with this preposterous joke they are calling a case then they get what they deserve from their governmental servants....thugs with the morals of the mafia...and its all available for the world to see...someone just needs to provide a tour through the madness.

The crazy will soon end...or it may soon enough just begin. Clearly nothing about it has anything to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher anymore. I think they stopped looking into that on Nov 6th 2007. The rest has been a truly silly imbecilic comedy acted out by fools IMHO. Scazzi and Earthquakes and tripping Cruise ship captains help to bolster this image. All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing...the Italians seem to be going beyond doing nothing and are backing evil without bothering to take a look at the facts. Purposely deciding an opinion while failing to bother opening their own eyes to even look.

A US jet cut a wire and killed Italians. Sue the US government for the irresponsible operation of this jet...do that. Not this.

 

[Antony]

You can lead jurors to the evidence, but you cannot make them believe it.

http://groundreport.com/the-meredith-kercher-murder-conspiracy-the-evidence-was-manipulated-from-the-start/

The bolding is mine for emphasis....

It would be interesting to have a link to the Mail news item that Nigel Scott refers to in the Ground Report item, but it doesn't seem to be on MailOnline. A search for articles mentioning "Perugia" and dated between 1 and 8 November 2007 throws up only the initial news item (3 Nov) and these 3 headlines from 7 November:

Lumumba: The popular and gentle bar owner willing to help anyone;

YouTube video of 'FoxyKnoxy' drunk while at university;

Murdered Meredith: Flatmate's 'crazy' boyfriend poses with a meat cleaver and bleach;

... all of which suggests that if Police were briefing the press about their theories then it wasn't Lumumba who was chiefly being lined up as the killer.