Neurocluster Brain Model/Moses and Yogis

[dafydd]

Neuroclusterbrain.

You're right. Only you have consciousness. You and only you are magical and special and unique. So magical and special and unique that you are the only true being in the universe and everyone else are just automatons that exist only to give your world flavor. You are the Alpha and Omega and the rest of us are just shadows on the walls of your cave.

Is that what you want to hear?

Yes! Look Mom, no hands! Thread over?

 

[wrs]

neuroclusterbrain
Have you heard of The Fourth Way? It is an interesting system propounded by an Armenian by the name of Georges Gurdjieff. He suggests that even when we believe ourselves to be awake, we are still asleep. In fact, the system is all about creating a dominant personality that can manage all the disparate personalities that each of us demonstrate. Each action one takes would be controlled by one personality. The issue is limiting the time each personality is allowed to have control of the actions and to react to the stimuli presented. Each personality will react differently to a given set of stimuli and if a different personality is in control when the stimuli are presented, the man will react differently to the same stimuli. This is a consistent problem even for supposedly sane and rational people.

 

[dafydd]

neuroclusterbrain
Have you heard of The Fourth Way? It is an interesting system propounded by an Armenian by the name of Georges Gurdjieff. He suggests that even when we believe ourselves to be awake, we are still asleep. In fact, the system is all about creating a dominant personality that can manage all the disparate personalities that each of us demonstrate. Each action one takes would be controlled by one personality. The issue is limiting the time each personality is allowed to have control of the actions and to react to the stimuli presented. Each personality will react differently to a given set of stimuli and if a different personality is in control when the stimuli are presented, the man will react differently to the same stimuli. This is a consistent problem even for supposedly sane and rational people.

George Gurdijeff. He was Russian, he's dead and he was a con man who lived off gullible rich people. There is a good chapter about him in this book.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...eter-washington-secker-20-pounds-1455965.html

 

[wrs]

George Gurdijeff. He was Russian, he's dead and he was a con man who lived off gullible rich people. There is a good chapter about him in this book.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...eter-washington-secker-20-pounds-1455965.html

His autobiography is pretty interesting. He spent a lot of time in Baku and he traveled extensively in the Near East including the Himalayas according to his AB. This is where he claims to have come into contact with many of the ideas he put into his system. He actually admits that people would see him as a con man in his AB, however, he has a different view of his motivations and I think the truth is, he demonstrated that in his life. There are many more writings about him that don't view him as a con man. Instead they see him as one who really didn't connect with others very well but who was able to convince others that he had something they didn't and that what he had was something worth having.

Most of what he had was only given through the device of "schools" which of course relied on group work and teaching from him or more advanced adherents. This is of course how all of these systems work. In my opinion, if you can't figure it out on your own, there is no value in it. The trouble is that in order to keep that from happening, most of the useful information is "esoteric", that is to say, it's not divulged unless you have personal contact with the person who holds the "esoteric" knowledge. Thus you are forced to join a shcool or have a guru if you want the knowledge. It's a bit like the process of getting a PhD.

 

[wrs]

The Tesla Thought Process of Invention

I am tossing this on here because it's really interesting how Tesla described his own thought process. It has always sounded like Lucid Dreaming but it's not. He could do this while he was awake and he of course derided the other scientists of his day for not thinking in the same way.

Here is a link to his description of his own process of invention.

He also says it's not hallucination so I am just wondering how it would fit in with the Neuro Cluster Brain Model.

Of course it's also just interesting reading for anyone else that is curious how someone like that thinks.

 

[dafydd]

His autobiography is pretty interesting. He spent a lot of time in Baku and he traveled extensively in the Near East including the Himalayas according to his AB.

Have you only just read that on the net? You thought that he was American, named Georges and still alive. I doubt if you have read any of his works.

 

[dafydd]

''Gurdjieff obviously had a powerful personality, but his disdain for the mundane and for natural science must have added to his attractiveness. He allegedly exuded extreme self-confidence and exhibited no self-doubt, traits which must have been comforting to many people. My favorite Gurdjieff story is told by Fritz Peters. To explain "the secret of life" to a wealthy English woman who had offered him £1,000 for such wisdom, Gurdjieff brought a prostitute to their table and told her he was from another planet. The food he was eating, he told her, was sent to him from his home planet at no small expense. He gave the prostitute some of the food and asked her what it tasted like. She told him it tasted like cherries. "That's the secret of life," Gurdjieff told the English lady. She called him a charlatan and left. Later that day, however, she gave him the money and became a devoted follower. He might have hit her with a stick like some Zen master and obtained the same result.''

http://www.skepdic.com/gurdjief.html

As I said, he was a con man preying on the rich and foolish.

 

[wrs]

Have you only just read that on the net? You thought that he was American and still alive. I doubt if you have read any of his works.

Where did you get that I thought he was American and still alive? His AB (or the best part of it) is called "Meetings with Remarkable Men". In it he describes the progression of his life through his experiences with various of these remarkable men.

I have sitting next to me right now"Views From the Real World" which is a group of some of his earlier talks. I have also read by Ouspensky, "In Search of the Miraculous". I am by no means an adherent but I still find the whole system to be quite intriguing. To that end, I have the three book series by Boris Mouravieff called "Gnosis" in which he goes through the material in more detail than the Ouspensky book does.

Here is a good site with some of his writings

 

[tsig]

neuroclusterbrain
Have you heard of The Fourth Way? It is an interesting system propounded by an Armenian by the name of Georges Gurdjieff. He suggests that even when we believe ourselves to be awake, we are still asleep. In fact, the system is all about creating a dominant personality that can manage all the disparate personalities that each of us demonstrate. Each action one takes would be controlled by one personality. The issue is limiting the time each personality is allowed to have control of the actions and to react to the stimuli presented. Each personality will react differently to a given set of stimuli and if a different personality is in control when the stimuli are presented, the man will react differently to the same stimuli. This is a consistent problem even for supposedly sane and rational people.

No.

 

[tsig]

His autobiography is pretty interesting. He spent a lot of time in Baku and he traveled extensively in the Near East including the Himalayas according to his AB. This is where he claims to have come into contact with many of the ideas he put into his system. He actually admits that people would see him as a con man in his AB, however, he has a different view of his motivations and I think the truth is, he demonstrated that in his life. There are many more writings about him that don't view him as a con man. Instead they see him as one who really didn't connect with others very well but who was able to convince others that he had something they didn't and that what he had was something worth having.

Most of what he had was only given through the device of "schools" which of course relied on group work and teaching from him or more advanced adherents. This is of course how all of these systems work. In my opinion, if you can't figure it out on your own, there is no value in it. The trouble is that in order to keep that from happening, most of the useful information is "esoteric", that is to say, it's not divulged unless you have personal contact with the person who holds the "esoteric" knowledge. Thus you are forced to join a shcool or have a guru if you want the knowledge. It's a bit like the process of getting a PhD.

That's the very definition of a con man.

 

[dafydd]

Where did you get that I thought he was American and still alive? His AB (or the best part of it) is called "Meetings with Remarkable Men". In it he describes the progression of his life through his experiences with various of these remarkable men.

I have sitting next to me right now"Views From the Real World" which is a group of some of his earlier talks. I have also read by Ouspensky, "In Search of the Miraculous". I am by no means an adherent but I still find the whole system to be quite intriguing. To that end, I have the three book series by Boris Mouravieff called "Gnosis" in which he goes through the material in more detail than the Ouspensky book does.

Here is a good site with some of his writings

Fair enough. But any attempt to link Gurdijeff's fantasies to science is doomed to failure.

 

[dafydd]

That's the very definition of a con man.

The shenanigans that went on at his 'school' make amusing reading. He had a real gift for conning money out of the gullible.

 

[wrs]

The shenanigans that went on at his 'school' make amusing reading. He had a real gift for conning money out of the gullible.

Here is what Ouspensky says about it in "In Search of the Miraculous"

At this time certain definite types of people had already begun to show a negative attitude towards our work. Besides the absence of "love" many people were very indignant at the demand for payment, for money. In this connection it was very characteristic that those who were indignant were not those who could pay only with difficulty, but people of means for whom the sum demanded was a mere trifle.

Those who could not pay or who could pay very little always understood that they could not count upon getting something for nothing, and that G.'s work, his journeys to Petersburg, and the time that he and others gave to the work cost money. Only those who had money did not understand and did not want to understand this.

"Does this mean that we must pay to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?" they said. "People do not pay nor is money asked for such things. Christ said to his disciples: 'Take neither purse nor scrip,' and you want a thousand roubles. A very good business could be made of it. Suppose that you had a hundred members. This would already make a hundred thousand, and if there were two hundred, three hundred? Three hundred thousand a year is very good money."
G. always smiled when I told him about talks like this.

"Take neither purse nor scrip! And need not a railway ticket be taken either? The hotel paid? You see how much falsehood and hypocrisy there is here. No, even if we needed no money at all it would still be necessary to keep this payment. It rids us at once of many useless people. Nothing shows up people so much as their attitude towards money. They are ready to waste as much as you like on their own personal fantasies but they have no valuation whatever of another person's labor. I must workfor them and give them gratis everything that they vouchsafe to take from me. 'How is it possible to trade in knowledge? This ought to be free.' It is precisely for this reason that the demand for this payment is necessary. Some people will never pass this barrier. And if they do not pass this one, it means that they will never pass
another. Besides, there are other considerations. Afterwards you will see."

The other considerations were very simple ones. Many people indeed could not pay. And although in principle G. put the question very strictly, in practice he never refused anybody on the grounds that they had no money. And it was found out later that he even supported many of his pupils. The people who paid a thousand roubles paid not only for themselves but for 0thers

 

[wrs]

That's the very definition of a con man.

Can you link me to that precise definition?

 

[wrs]

Fair enough. But any attempt to link Gurdijeff's fantasies to science is doomed to failure.

Are we considering the Neuro Cluster Brain Model to be science? The thread is in religion and philosophy, I wasn't considering any of this to be science. Metaphysics yes, science no.

 

[Pyrts]

He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.
We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit.

As to point A, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the rather obvious -- that he drank his own urine.

And as for point B (and the suggestion that he somehow absorbed water from his bladder), the transitional epithelium of the bladder is impermeable for humans: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=42258.0

Retaining urine for more than a week is not very good for your body (among other things, you may form urinary crystals.)

 

[Loss Leader]

Another batch of Rule 11 and 12 posts have been moved to AAH. Please discuss something - anything - other than each other. Thank you.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader

 

[Iamme]

That still leaves the question, why would God do this very silly thing?

Why would a God who had recently announced hundreds of laws and commands in a voice audible to thousands of people (including Moses) then perform a miracle in order for Moses to enter a hallucinatory state induced by prolonged deprivation of food and water so that he could imagine receiving ten more commands, plus a few promises about how God would support the people if these commands were kept?

Would this be the equivalent of God making promises with his fingers crossed behind his back?

I see your point. Yeah. Could you please list either these scripture verses or if against JREF rules, provide a google link about this? I cant recall ever reading this in the Bible. If true...well, i`d hate to bring this up to my Christian mother, that`s for sure. I wouldnt.

 

[Brian-M]

I see your point. Yeah. Could you please list either these scripture verses or if against JREF rules, provide a google link about this? I cant recall ever reading this in the Bible. If true...well, i`d hate to bring this up to my Christian mother, that`s for sure. I wouldnt.

Start reading from Exodus 19 for the whole thing. I'll just quote a few brief highlights.

God apparently announced that he was going to make a public appearance...

The Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the Lord what the people had said.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

Hmmm... It seems that I was wrong about him announcing hundreds of laws in front of thousands of witnesses. After the first ten, they asked Moses to hear the rest of the laws for them, so that they wouldn't have to hear God's voice. But the bit about the thousands of witnesses still stands.

After God announced the first ten commands (known today as the Ten Commandments) this happened...

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven:

And then all the rest of the laws and commands.

(I can't help but imagine Moses having a co-conspirator hiding in a cave whose entrance was mostly concealed by the smoke produced by the volcanic mountain announcing the commandments with some kind of brass megaphone to make his voice all deep and boomy, and wobbling a large sheet of metal to make thunder-like sounds. That would explain why Exodus 19 makes a very strong point about other people not being allowed to approach God, and that anyone who attempted it should be killed.)

After all the laws and commands were given...

When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.” Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

So they had a written copy of the laws to work with before Moses got the tablets. (I wonder how Moses remembered them all?)

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and commandments I have written for their instruction.”

So before Moses even went up to get the first set of tablets, we have seventy elders of Israel who supposedly saw God with their own eyes, plus all the people who'd heard the voice of God giving them the first ten commandments the day before.

 

[Iamme]

Thanks Brian. I am going to read Exodus, and contemplate. Very disturbing to me about many of the Bible stories...sounds contrived, in order that some leader can gain respect and command over his people. Also what disturbs me is how a god that is the creator of the heavens and of all people, only concentrated his interest on Hebrews/Jews, as if they were the only people on Earth.