Neurocluster Brain Model/Moses and Yogis

[Andy_Ross]

I don't think you understand the process. The man learns to control his bodily processes through his mind. It is pure mind over body. Some people just starve because they can't do it. Not everyone can actually do this and the yogi's don't promise you will. If you don't get it in this life, you are on the way to getting it in the next. This is what I can garner from my readings on the subject.

This is as much woo as the OP!

 

[neuroclusterbrain]

It's not the forty days of starvation we're complaining about. That would be (occasionally) survivable, if only barely. It's the forty days without water that's the problem. Nobody can survive without water for that long.

What about the water? Stop running away from your claim.

The claim of 40 days without water is NOT my claim, this is the claim of the bible. dafydd should raise his qualification in distinguishing which claims are made by the opponent and which claims are simply cited from external sources just to illustrate the general idea – these are two completely different things. If somebody is citing some external source this does not automatically mean that he fully supports or believes in the claims of that external source. The citing of external source is just for informational purposes to show the general idea, however dafydd is incapable to understand such trivial and simple things.
Ok, let’s go back to “40 days without water” question. Brian-M wrote that man cannot survive so long without water. Explanation is very simple – the authors of the bible wanted to exaggerate the capabilities of Moses/Jesus and maybe increased the number of days for the simple reason – they knew that standard average man cannot survive so long thus the claim of 40 days should make look Moses/Jesus as having special powers, you simply need to add something to a character in order to make him look like having divine powers. As it was written before – the exact number of days is not important. What is important here is that many religious cults were and are practicing prolonged starvation in order to induce hallucinations – especially this is inherent to the founders of ancient religious cults. In medicine it is well known that long starvation (especially without water) causes hallucinations which religious adepts interpret as getting into “spiritual worlds”. It is extremely high probability that Moses/Jesus had used the same very old well known technique of starvation for getting into “spiritual world” and meeting “divine creatures” (angels, demons, God, etc). The exact number of days is not important. What is important here is the technique for “getting into spiritual worlds” and medicine has many documented cases that this technique is functional and is able to deliver into “spiritual worlds”. And btw, when the man is knocked into coma stage he can survive without food and water much longer than the awake man because in coma stage the speed of biochemical activity is decreased and the biochemical reserves are depleted not so fast.

 

[catsmate]

If he had really gone forty days without food or water, he'd be dead.
(ETA: But it looks like I've been beaten to this point already.)

I didn't know that those 1970's IRA hunger strikers were holy men. They went longer than forty days.

Surviving 40 days without food is possible, however the IRA hunger strikers had extensively prepared for the ordeal and were in excellent physical condition. And they drank water.
Surviving 40 days without water is nonsense.

Forty days of starvation is not necessarily needed in order to begin seeing the hallucinations, the man might begin seeing hallucinations after shorter period of starvation.

So yet again you're selecting what bits of the bible to accept.

And not all people die after forty days of starvation – some people die, however some people survive.

A small number of people, in good physical condition, have survived. Thought not without water.

And in the case if the man has survived such prolonged starvation, he will begin seeing the hallucinations.

Evidence?

And the ones who have survived and see hallucinations – many of such people believe that they have entered the “spiritual worlds”.

Evidence?

It is important to note that short duration starvation will not carry the man
into the “spiritual worlds” because the body will use the accumulated resources to keep the equilibrium of brain’s biochemical reactions intact, and only long enough starvation will knock out the biochemical equilibrium when some of vital biochemical substances will be depleted.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Here is the most up to date one of these but keep in mind, the west has been trying for the last century to disprove these.

Unsupported claims. Lots of claims and assertions, no evidence. Try here for a more skeptical take on his claims.

I don't think you understand the process. The man learns to control his bodily processes through his mind. It is pure mind over body. Some people just starve because they can't do it.

And amazingly when those people who claim to be able to survive without food and water are tested in properly controlled conditions their "powers" fail them.

I think someone is using "debunking" the Bible as a tool for pushing his own crackpot science.........

Exactly.

 

[catsmate]

The exact number of days which Moses and Jesus had starved is not important. The number of days (40) may have been exaggerated. Maybe they have starved 30, 20, 15 or whatever days - it does not matter. The number of days is not important.

Or maybe Moses is a fabricated character and none of it happened. The whole "Egyptian captivity" is ahistorical nonsense.

 

[wrs]

Unsupported claims. Lots of claims and assertions, no evidence. Try here for a more skeptical take on his claims.

After discussing the 2003 test, this starts talking about some woman who was a fraud. This capability is claimed a lot and shown not to be true. However, there have been others besides this guy that have succeeded in going without food and water for longer than doctors claim people can live. The source I linked to was mostly discussion.

Here is a better link to information about the 2010 test which was more conclusive and included 35 doctors. Feel free to be skeptical but this looks pretty well documented.

From Wikipedia

From 22 April until 6 May 2010, Prahlad Jani was again observed and tested by Sudhir Shah and a team of 35 researchers from the Indian Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS), as well as other organizations.[2][9][10][11] The director of DIPAS said that the results of the observations could "tremendously benefit mankind", as well as "soldiers, victims of calamities and astronauts", all of whom may have to survive without food or water for long spells.[12] The tests were again conducted at Sterling Hospitals.[13] Professor Anil Gupta of SRISTI,[14] involved in monitoring the tests, described the team as being "intrigued" by Jani's kriyas apparently allowing him to control his body's physiological functions.[15]

The team studied Jani with daily clinical examinations, blood tests, and scans. Round-the-clock surveillance was reportedly followed using multiple CCTV cameras and personal observation. The researchers say that Jani was taken out of the sealed room for tests and exposure to sun under continuous video recording.[16] According to the researchers, Jani's only contact with any form of fluid was said to be during gargling and occasional bathing starting from the 5th day of observation, and the toilet in Jani's room was sealed to test his claim that he did not need to urinate or defecate.[2]

After fifteen days of observation during which he reportedly did not eat, drink or go to the toilet, all medical tests on Jani were reported as normal[16] and researchers described him as being in better health than someone half his age.[2] The doctors reported that although the amount of liquid in Jani's bladder fluctuated and that Jani appeared "able to generate urine in his bladder",[15] he did not pass urine. Based on Jani's reported levels of leptin and ghrelin, two appetite-related hormones, DRDO researchers posited that Jani may be demonstrating an extreme form of adaptation to starvation and water restriction.[17] DIPAS stated in 2010 that further studies were planned,[18][19] including investigations into how metabolic waste material is eliminated from Jani's body, from where he gets his energy for sustenance, and how he maintains his hydration status.[20]

 

[Brian-M]

The claim of 40 days without water is NOT my claim, this is the claim of the bible.

Ok, let’s go back to “40 days without water” question. Brian-M wrote that man cannot survive so long without water. Explanation is very simple – the authors of the bible wanted to exaggerate the capabilities of Moses/Jesus and maybe increased the number of days for the simple reason

Okay, so you're not actually claiming that he literally went without water that long, and that this claim is just another made-up miracle like him parting the red sea or his face glowing so radiantly after coming down the mountain the second time that he had to wear a veil except for times when he went to speak with God.

– the exact number of days is not important. What is important here is that many religious cults were and are practicing prolonged starvation in order to induce hallucinations –

What hallucinations are we talking about here? According to Exodus, God personally announced more than five hundred commands before Moses even went up the first time, and this was witnessed by his entire people. Why would he have to enter a hallucinatory state just to receive ten more?

 

[catsmate]

<snip> However, there have been others besides this guy that have succeeded in going without food and water for longer than doctors claim people can live.

No. There have been lots of claims but no actual evidence.

The source I linked to was mostly discussion.

It was mostly waffle, leavened with unsupported claims like yours.

Here is a better link to information about the 2010 test which was more conclusive and included 35 doctors. Feel free to be skeptical but this looks pretty well documented.

If you'd actually read the page I liked to, it mentioned the claims of the 2010 "test" (as well as the 2003 one) which was designed to support the "yogi". Skeptics were intentionally excluded, the physician failed to provide all the data and that which was released indicated a textbook case of starvation.
There's more, from the inimitable PZ, here.
Randi's own take.

Sonograms showed urine in the bladder and feces in the colon that later disappeared, somehow. And the blood work taken by the credulous MD, Sudhir Shah, show changes symptomatic of starvation.

The same is true for serum sodium, serum chloride and serum potassium. The hematocrit is also increasing. This is a clear sign of dehydratation and hemoconcentration, compatible with a period of starvation and thirst. Blood sugar is decreasing, and serum acetone is increasing. This is also a sign of starvation. At the beginning and three days after the test, values are normal.
But, instead discussing such a starvation period (and not a long lasting esoteric inedia) as a very plausible source for the blood values shown, these are explained by neurologist Sudhir Shah to be amazing and to show a sort of medicine wonder. But in fact they show a normal behaviour of a subject, compatible with actual knowledge in physiology and bioenergetics.

Lots of claims, no independent scrutiny and commentary from a credulous physician.

Not exactly. The more exact statement is: “we've reached the death spiral of dafydd and other unqualified people who claim that dream characters do not have consciousness”.

Then provide evidence to support you claim. Or stop the waffling.

 

[dafydd]

The claim of 40 days without water is NOT my claim, this is the claim of the bible.

Complete bollocks then. Understood.

 

[Iamme]

Been reading many posts above. This is hillarious. How did the Lord get thrown into the mix, using Moses and the Lord as any point at all, when most? posters here are atheists and dont even believe a Lord existed, at least as being ``the Lord``, as opposed to just being another prophet or God wannabe. With this being said, lets suppose you are willing to use the Lord and Moses scenario merely to make a point regarding the OP. And you argue Moses could not have survived 40 days without water? Hahaha...you forgot one important detail; he was with the Lord, duh!(i mean, this argument only applies if you want to even discuss he was up on the mountain with the Lord, rather than a fabricated fable) You think the Lord would let his chosen laison die up there on the mountain? Lol

 

[Iamme]

....and i love stories about Gurus and Yogis...the Beatles with their TM...Maharashi Yogi...their trances, levitations, claims of collective minds changing the world...guru owning 37? Rolls Royces? Lol (like Imelda Marcos owning shoes, lol). And are these gurus just gurus where they just sit around all day doing guru stuff? Where does their money come from?..donations?

 

[wrs]

the page I liked to, it mentioned the claims of the 2010 "test" (as well as the 2003 one) which was designed to support the "yogi". Skeptics were intentionally excluded, the physician failed to provide all the data and that which was released indicated a textbook case of starvation.
There's more, from the inimitable PZ, here.
Randi's own take.

Here is the problem, Randi didn't ask to be part of the study to begin with and it's not incumbent on people doing the studies to address every issue that some skeptic could imagine. I watched Randi's video and he is essentially calling the people who did the test fools and incompetent. That is a pretty tall claim itself with no facts to back it up other than Randi waving his hands and saying fact, fact, fact. What I see in your writeup of the 2003 test is simply questions about the data, not any conclusive evidence that the man was starving.

I have read about this stuff repeatedly and I know that in the early 20th century there were tests of these kind of people done in England and that the doctors doing the tests certified the results to the best of their abilities.

Not all people do this stuff for notoriety, they do it because it's their way of life. Some of them are fakes and I think if you can show this guy is getting all kinds of money and acclaim from this then you might be on to something. I don't see that accruing to this person. Just that he does something that is unnatural and supposedly not possible. The fact that your writeup includes references to a proven fake undermines your case. That isn't this case, it does nothing to help your position in this case.

The link you provided doesn't analyze any of the 2010 data and I have yet to see anything from Randi actually addressing the 2003 data. The video you provided was pretty much just a lot of claims without proof. The claim that the yogi drank water when bathing is only speculation, where is the proof? If you have real conclusive evidence that either of these tests was a sham, then produce it. So far, the weaker case is yours.

I am an objective observer, I have no dog in this fight but I would say your dog is losing. Oh by the way, I went to the Case Study Summary and read that as well. What I saw was a lot of doctors certifying the 10 day test and concluding that the man wasn't starving. I guess I am willing to believe those doctors over skeptics who claim the doctors are simply blinded by their religious bias. Here is what they say.

He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.
We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit.


Reading your writeup one might infer he secretly released the urine after being informed it was there. In a fast, you will pass urine and defeacate. I would suggest that maybe this is the problem for your conclusions about the facts. The lack of urine being passed and the measurements of the bladder suggest that there is no starvation. Blood work is generally just an indicator and not proof of physiological changes. I am not a doctor so I can't say for sure but it seems that is the way doctors use it. I would think the sonogram measurements on the bladder and the constant monitoring are stronger physiological indicators.

I lean to believing the doctors in this case. Can anyone do this? No way. Has this guy really not eaten for 70 years? I have no way to prove otherwise but I have a hard time believing it. As to the tests the doctors did, I do accept their conclusions.

 

[sleepy_lioness]

Really? You think that a miracle whereby some guy can defeat all we know about physiology, is a more likely explanation than that he drank the water given him to gargle with, and/or drank his bathwater and peed in it?

 

[catsmate]

Here is the problem, Randi didn't ask to be part of the study to begin with and it's not incumbent on people doing the studies to address every issue that some skeptic could imagine.

If they expect to be taken seriously by anyone other than the gullible they should be prepared to defend them with proper methodology.

I watched Randi's video and he is essentially calling the people who did the test fools and incompetent.

Yes. Which is, as the analysis of their "data" shows, quite correct. The physician in charge made statements about the tests that are simply wrong.

What I see in your writeup of the 2003 test is simply questions about the data, not any conclusive evidence that the man was starving.

Did you actually read it? And the other analyses? Where it's shown that the results were standard indicators of starvation.

I have read about this stuff repeatedly and I know that in the early 20th century there were tests of these kind of people done in England and that the doctors doing the tests certified the results to the best of their abilities.

Let's see your evidence then.

Not all people do this stuff for notoriety, they do it because it's their way of life.

Ah yes, the standard "we're not interested in the money" whine of those unwilling to allow proper, independent, tests of their supernatural claims.
Except of course they are.

I am an objective observer, I have no dog in this fight but I would say your dog is losing.

Right.

Oh by the way, I went to the Case Study Summary and read that as well. What I saw was a lot of doctors certifying the 10 day test and concluding that the man wasn't starving. I guess I am willing to believe those doctors over skeptics who claim the doctors are simply blinded by their religious bias.

Or you could look at the results, do a bit of research of your own, and compare the results with the effects of starvation.

Blood work is generally just an indicator and not proof of physiological changes.

I lean to believing the doctors in this case.

Because you want to believe.

Can anyone do this?

No. No-one can. It's a fake.

 

[dafydd]

Has this guy really not eaten for 70 years?

No.

 

[wrs]

Really? You think that a miracle whereby some guy can defeat all we know about physiology, is a more likely explanation than that he drank the water given him to gargle with, and/or drank his bathwater and peed in it?

I think that is only a claim without proof. You guys are on the short end of the deal here. There is video of both of these tests. If you can get it and show that your claim is true, I will concede that the doctors faked it. Otherwise, I have a difficult time figuring out why these doctors would lie.

 

[wrs]

Did you actually read it? And the other analyses? Where it's shown that the results were standard indicators of starvation.

Yes I did and I commented on them and on the indicators that suggested otherwise and which obviously the doctors thought more significant in drawing their conclusion.

I am not an expert but given the two sets of claims here, I find theirs to be more compelling than yours.

 

[dafydd]

I think that is only a claim without proof. You guys are on the short end of the deal here. There is video of both of these tests. If you can get it and show that your claim is true, I will concede that the doctors faked it. Otherwise, I have a difficult time figuring out why these doctors would lie.

Of course videos always tell the truth. Just look at YouTube.

 

[sleepy_lioness]

I think that is only a claim without proof. You guys are on the short end of the deal here. There is video of both of these tests. If you can get it and show that your claim is true, I will concede that the doctors faked it. Otherwise, I have a difficult time figuring out why these doctors would lie.

Was he videoed 24/7? I doubt they videoed him during his 'bathing rituals'. And, how would a video be able to show whether he drank the water he was gargling, or peed in the bath?

 

[catsmate]

I think that is only a claim without proof. You guys are on the short end of the deal here. There is video of both of these tests.

Untrue. There are recording of part of the "tests" with plenty of opportunity for the "yogi" to cheat.

Yes I did and I commented on them and on the indicators that suggested otherwise and which obviously the doctors thought more significant in drawing their conclusion.

You are wrong, I've linked to quite detailed assessments of the indicators and why they show early symptoms of starvation.

I am not an expert but given the two sets of claims here, I find theirs to be more compelling than yours.

I really don't care which you find to be "more compelling", the facts say otherwise.

Was he videoed 24/7? I doubt they videoed him during his 'bathing rituals'. And, how would a video be able to show whether he drank the water he was gargling, or peed in the bath?

Exactly. There was no continuous recording, no attempt to prevent consumption of water, no involvement of those skeptical of the claims (in fact in 2010 a direct refusal to allow such to monitor the process).

Ok, it looks that some readers have not even read the description of Neurocluster Brain Model and as a result they are unable to get the idea what is going here.

We I for one have, it's nonsense.

<snippage>. However what matters is that dreams characters act as separate entities (agents).

Which you have yet to prove.

At first please read very carefully the short description of Neurocluster Brain Model in the link bellow before you post your arguments about it.
http://neuroclusterbrain.com

Linkspam, how pathetic. Try answering the questions put to you first.

 

[Brian-M]

And you argue Moses could not have survived 40 days without water? Hahaha...you forgot one important detail; he was with the Lord, duh!(i mean, this argument only applies if you want to even discuss he was up on the mountain with the Lord, rather than a fabricated fable) You think the Lord would let his chosen laison die up there on the mountain? Lol

That still leaves the question, why would God do this very silly thing?

Why would a God who had recently announced hundreds of laws and commands in a voice audible to thousands of people (including Moses) then perform a miracle in order for Moses to enter a hallucinatory state induced by prolonged deprivation of food and water so that he could imagine receiving ten more commands, plus a few promises about how God would support the people if these commands were kept?

Would this be the equivalent of God making promises with his fingers crossed behind his back?