Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Yet you say what you say about Curatolo and heroin and reliability of witnesses and we're supposed to believe you about Knox's truthfulness?

Curatolo was believed by all courts who questioned him directly, so your generic opinions and prejudices are all beyond the point. The consistency of his words is before everyone to see, you can assess it yourself. My opinion about scientific properties of morphine doesn't matter (you are not in a position to object to it anyway).

Knox is instead a relevant point: she is inconsistent, not believable and she is contradicted by witnesses (such as Anna Donnino and Filomena) and by findings.
This is objective. It has nothing to do with Knox's morality or psychology. It is only the mind of the pro-Knox supporters that want to would like to make the credibility "depend" on her being called a "whore" or a "whitch".
Actually, it's you and your side who call Knox a whore (and Guede a pimp).

Knox is a liar because she is a liar, it's self-evident from her testimonies, oral and written, it does not depend on other judgements nor on any other inference about her personality.

And you advance the part highlighted in yellow as a reason to hold Italy's courts in positive regard?

Anna Donnino has her own potential misconduct to deal with... she's the one by her own testimony said she acted as a mediator between Knox and the cops - since, acc. to Donnino, when she arrived at the interrogation things (to her reckoning) had badly deteriorated. Knox needed an interpretor that night, not someone trying to convince her that she'd had repressed memories.

That is Donnino's contribution to this mess.

You're the one who claims that Heroin does not impair judgement, and we're supposed to believe you when you call Knox a liar? (This isn't going to be one of those things, again, where you now claim you never said it? You're a slippery fish, Machiavelli.)

 

[LondonJohn]

Anyway I repeat the concept: I believe Curatolo indicates that a couple was sitting there for over one hour an a half, I have actually no doubt that this happened. The only reasonable question could be if it was them.

"No doubt", eh?

In other words, you 100% reject the possibility that Curatolo was a sad, ill, confused, drug-addicted man who knew full well the power of the police and the judiciary to make his life even more difficult than it already was?

And that this situation might have been a motivating factor for Curatolo to agree to help the authorities in a criminal case - where he had already given various conflicting accounts of what he thinks he saw that evening - by agreeing to choose the one version of events (among several) that was helpful to the authorities?

And that by doing so, Curatolo might have believed - perhaps correctly - that he had "bought" some favour from the authorities which might be advantageous to him in the future? (Perhaps the police would refrain from hassling him on his park bench for a few months, or they'd turn a blind eye to some of his less-savoury activities......)

Or even that perhaps Curatolo might have been coerced by the authorities into providing prosecution-friendly testimony, owing to the fact that they had a cast-iron heroin-dealing case against him that curiously appeared to be lying dormant at that time? ("Hey, Antonio, we could always look again at our files and bring those charges, unless...............")


You 100% reject any possibility that any or all of the above might just possibly have been reasonable motivation for Curatolo to give false testimony that was helpful to the authorities?

Oh, and you also 100% reject any possibility that Curatolo (a heroin addict at the time) was simply honestly mistaken in what he thought he saw, and/or the night on which he thought he saw it?

 

[kwill]

Anna Donnino has her own potential misconduct to deal with... she's the one by her own testimony said she acted as a mediator between Knox and the cops - since, acc. to Donnino, when she arrived at the interrogation things (to her reckoning) had badly deteriorated. Knox needed an interpretor that night, not someone trying to convince her that she'd had repressed memories.

That is Donnino's contribution to this mess.

There is nothing in the interrogation that's more disturbing than this woman's part, IMO. It's perfectly obvious what happened: the police believed they knew who the killers were, and they saw their job as extracting confessions. They must have been very frustrated when Amanda kept saying she wasn't there.

I don't think -- absent a motherly, helpful translator arriving when Amanda was in distress to tell her in English that it was normal to have repressed memories of traumatic events -- that Amanda would ever in a zillion years have said what she said.

How bloody cruel.

No wonder they won't admit to having taped it.

 

[tsig]

Actually Hellmann said "Curatolo whose credibility this court very much doubts". This is a polite way of saying old Toto was lying or delusional. I certainly would put it past the old bum to have created a false memory for himself. I also wouldn't put it past him to lie for the attention.

Proven in the same way that Amanda was convicted and therefore correct? This is circular logic.



Not really, since, everything about his memory points to Halloween. The only thing that points to November 1st is that Curatolo says he remembers because he saw Martians at the cottage the next day which we assume were the staff of the Scientific Police.

If he can be so mistaken about masks and Halloween, is there any reason not to believe that he is mistaken about the day of the Martians?



Actually it does. There is study upon study upon study that shows that heroin (particularly long term use of heroin) severely effects memory and other cognitive abilities. In fact, it is the kind of details and clear conflation of events by Curatolo that demonstrates this fact.

For example, From THE EFFECT OF HEROIN ON MEMORY
Sladjana Martinović Mitrović, Aleksandra Dickov, Nikola Vučković,Dragan Mitrović& Danijela Budiša
Institute of Psychiatry, Clinical Centre „Vojvodina“, Novi Sad, Serbia

The consumption of heroin over a long time can lead to organic damage of various cerebral structures which results in psychopathological and neuro-physiological consequences which become apparent through cognitive, connative and affective spheres of mental functioning (Lacković2007). Cognitive functions which are in most cases affected by the toxic influence of opiates are: attention, concentration, memory and perceptual-motor speed /coordination[


No, Toto and only Toto said there was a couple that remained in the Piazza that night and he is the only one. I wonder if he noticed them while he was sticking the needle in his arm?

Why would they discuss this outside when they had both the apartment and the cottage to discuss anything they want? **BTW, night time temperatures ranged was from 8 to 10 degrees. Daytime high was 13 degrees.
Really? He knew Amanda by sight? AK had spent all of 42 days in Perugia and Toto knew her by sight? Seriously? how do you give any credence at all to this silly testimony?...No please don't answer that. It was rhetorical. I don't want to hear your logic.

The police probably slapped him on the back of the head, we all know that will make you spout out anything, even accuse your boss of the crime.

 

[Diocletus]

The police probably slapped him on the back of the head, we all know that will make you spout out anything, even accuse your boss of the crime.

We can't know what that would make a particular person do in a particular set of circumstances, but one thing for sure is that after such hitting, the interogee is no longer responsible for the results of the interrogation.

 

[kwill]

Knox is a liar because she is a liar

Is Mignini a liar because he is a liar? He said that the reason no tapes were made of her interrogation was that there was no budget.

Do you believe this? If so, why? If not, is he a liar?

 

[JREF2010]

If Curatolo were an upper class businessman, with a well-paid job, living with a wife and children, a regular social life with his acquaintances and relatives, who would have dinner every night at 9 pm, in a cool apartment in some other neighborhood downtown… then, his profile and lifestyle would appear "not compatible" with a scenario of him testifying for money, doing favors for the prosecution, and hanging out with a criminal.

Curatolo was a 50+-year old who had been a heroin addict and dealer for decades. As a drug addict he was “only interested in pleasure” and completely detached from reality. His proclivity for living on a park bench for ten years can only be described as excessively abnormal. He is a person who would drift around town looking for drugs, and would do God-knows-what to get them. Witnesses described him as being wheeled into the courtroom on an office chair, dressed in a coat, hat and scarf, which he did not remove once on the witness stand. He must have known Guede for the entire time Guede had lived in Perugia. Obviously, he had psychological issues, drug addiction being first and foremost among them. He admitted to using heroin all the time. His companions were other dealers and, no doubt, users of all kinds in Perugia, where police turn a blind eye to the active drug trade.

Your objection is that he was credible because he sounded credible to you, and that he was not brain-damaged because heroin is nothing more than morphine.

You may try to disagree on the interpretation of some of the details listed above, but you can perfectly see the basic data about the person’s profile.

The profile of Curatolo is just compatible with a scenario in which it is likely he committed crimes with Rudy Guede. Every rational person can see that.

Just say it’s compatible and move on.

I would settle for a sober witness versus a drug-induced heroin, self confessed user during the time of the blurry visioned witness.

It seems that Mignini is a retard, to build a case using a foggy minded Heroin addict.

 

[acbytesla]

The police probably slapped him on the back of the head, we all know that will make you spout out anything, even accuse your boss of the crime.

Out of curiosity TSIG? If a person in a position of authority ordered you to deliver a 400-volt electrical shock to another person, would you follow orders?

 

[Bill Williams]

There is nothing in the interrogation that's more disturbing than this woman's part, IMO. It's perfectly obvious what happened: the police believed they knew who the killers were, and they saw their job as extracting confessions. They must have been very frustrated when Amanda kept saying she wasn't there.

I don't think -- absent a motherly, helpful translator arriving when Amanda was in distress to tell her in English that it was normal to have repressed memories of traumatic events -- that Amanda would ever in a zillion years have said what she said.

How bloody cruel.

No wonder they won't admit to having taped it.

IIRC Donnino is part of the defamation lawsuit against Knox for the allegation she'd been hit at interrogation.

Yet by her own admission Donnino arrived an hour after the interrogation had started in earnest. How'd she know if hitting had happened? It's bad enough by her own admission she "mediated" in an already chaotic room.

BTW - trained cops know how to handle protestations of innocence. It neither phases nor frustrates them. It's what happens. They continue with the task at hand until the suspect buckles and tells them what they already knew.

Please note. I do not mean this to vilify cops. 9/10s of the time they actually DO have the perp in front of them. In the US since the Central Park Five where all five confessed to something they did not do, cops receive additional training. Guess what kind?

Yes. How to spot a false confession. There are some kinds of confessions where the cops unlock the cuffs and tell the suspect to go home.

 

[RWVBWL]

Oh yes I do think the match on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment.
And I don't think at all that the print shows a particular shape of the knife.

I don't think the stain is anyway an 'imprint' the way that a footprint would be, because the knife is not a foot. It's a light object that was smeared with blood irregularly and had a very partial contact with a sheet, and some blood dropped on it. There is little information this can offer, beyond an approximate lenght of the knife blade and an outline suggesting the shape of the point.

It is obviously not a match, the knife imprint on the bed is much smaller than the kitchen knife. Machiavelli is simply wrong about this.

Greetings Author RoseMontague!
Machiavelli's observations remind me of discussions here at the beaches of Los Angeles:
Was that a shark or a dolphin?
Dolphins have a horizonial tail, sharks a vertical tail,
and when a shark breaches, in the blink of an eye,
people get them confused sometimes

But in this case we discuss,
there is a photograph where the investigators laid The Knife, or a photo of it,
over the bloody imprint outline left on Miss Kercher's bed sheet.
So we can examine the photo over and over again,
instead of wondering, was that a shark breach or a dolphin?
(And yes, sharks do swim near dolphins).


As this photograph shows us,


The Knife, from Raff's pad, is too long,
the curve of the bottom of the murder weapons tip is completely different to that of Raff's kitchen knife,
and the top of the murder weapon, near the tip,
it ain't straight either, BUT instead curves downward a bit.

Machiavelli,
a dolphin ain't a shark,
err, I mean that knife isn't a match!
RW

 

[Supernaut]

Oh yes I do think the match on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment.
And I don't think at all that the print shows a particular shape of the knife. ... [etc']

There is a clear, precise imprint of the hilt (or part of the handle), which is at a completely different angle from that of Raff's kitchen knife.

Anyone can see this.

 

[Bill Williams]

Please note how Machiavelli's claims about the kitchen knife matching the knife out line on Meredith's sheet has migrated somewhat.

First Machiavelli original claim.

Oh yes I do think the match on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment.And I don't think at all that the print shows a particular shape of the knife.

I don't think the stain is anyway an 'imprint' the way that a footprint would be, because the knife is not a foot. It's a light object that was smeared with blood irregularly and had a very partial contact with a sheet, and some blood dropped on it. There is little information this can offer, beyond an approximate lenght of the knife blade and an outline suggesting the shape of the point.

The "match on the bedsheet" being compatible with Raffiaele's knife is now....

I'll help you. You may say: "Machiavelli believes there is no conclusive evidence that the stain on the sheet is incompatibe with the kitchen knife".

or shorter:

"Machiavelli doesn't think the bed sheet stain is incompatible with the kitchen knife".

The problem is, it's completely incompatible. What I am waiting for is a denial from Machiavelli for him saying what he said above, that it was compatible. When pressed, he's fudged a bit moving into the "not incompatible" argument.

But my point is not to refute Machiavelli on the issue of the kitchen knife and the outline in blood of another knife on Meredith's bedsheet. It is simply ludicrous for Machivaelli to even be claiming this... see RoseM's remarks, and see RWVBWL's response.

I'm not even going to get into the issue of Machiavelli being either mistaken a liar, or something else.

It's just that Machiavelli is full of these sorts of claims - they serve some sort of unknown purpose when he's claiming them, then when time moves on he violently opposes anyone who reminds him of what he once said.

Now - did he ever say, "Yes, I once said those things but find I am now mistaken"? Did he ever say, "Well, I should have been more precise: instead of saying it was compatible, I should have said it was not incompatible, which is a slightly different thing, I'll agree. I just wanted to clarify for the sake of precision"? Has he ever made those sorts of mid course corrections and admitted to them?

Not that I have seen.

I have people telling me that Machiavelli once said that the cottage in which Meredith, Amanda, Laura and Filomena lived in was a brothel. Machiavelli once claimed that it was something other than this, that one of the residents of the cottage exchanged sex for drugs, and that this made the man in question a de facto pimp for her. You have read the rest here...

Please note, the "Massei found as factual that Knox and Sollecito had no psychopathology in them," is not part of this phenomenon, because Machiavelli in that one has always maintained that Judge Massei actually DID find psychopathology in them - or at the very least made no such pronouncement...

.... (which itself would have been a repudiation of the Mignini-Comodi prosecution by Massei if Massei had said nothing.... guess what Mignini and Comodi thought of the psychopathology of the two students? How have the hate sites portrayed them?)

But what Massei found as factual is not part of this other Machiavelli phenomenon - of saying the most outlandish thing, and then spending pages and pages of posts and posts claiming that he'd never said what he'd said.

Witness the business of "Knox could choose not to sleep; you can tell by analysing her writings." This is something Machiavelli claimed way, way back when when the issue of a 20-something exhausted, stressed out foreigner was raised, who at interrogation, Machiavelli claimed, cunningly lied and manipulated seasoned investigators into a wrong investigative direction.

How could a sleep deprived Knox manage that, even if she was an expert, CIA-quality manipulator? Machiavelli's answer, "she could choose not to sleep, and was immune from the consequences of that decision."

Now he is saying he did not say that.

Me, I just wanted to make sure this ludicrous claim that the kitchen knife matches the outline on the sheet would not meet a similar Machiavellian fate. We also have the issue of Heroin not effecting perception. My big wonder is how long it will take Machiavelli to strongly and with vigour complain to the moderators that this is being brought up as if he'd once said those two things?

 

[e740JPH]

I can't believe you said this.

Nancy S's point is the salient one here. You have Knox and Sollecito turned into drugged out killers because of marijuana, but Curatolol as a reliable precision witness while under the influence of Heroin.

The only disagreement I have with NancyS is her observation that you cannot make up this stuff.

Apparently you can. Why do you embarrass yourself like this?

Amen! Mach does not know what he is talking about! Obviously he has been fortunate enough never to have been plied with heavy doses of morphine over a longer period of time. No hallucinations - my a$$

 

[Supernaut]

Of course the filling in this sandwich is Hellmann, who PQ confidently attests is now a social outcast in his home town.

LoL.

Yeh - of COURSE he is.

I liked the look of Hellmann the minute I saw him (although I still doubted that he would kick against the pricks, right up until 03/10/2011)

He appears to be a dignified, intelligent man, and I reckon that there are enough kindred spirits, even in Italy, that see him the same way and who are allied with him.

Unlike the corpulent, beady-eyed Mignini, who has allies such the no-less corpulent Peter Quennell.

 

[Supernaut]

The police probably slapped him on the back of the head, we all know that will make you spout out anything, even accuse your boss of the crime.

Oh, my aching ribs.

 

[RWVBWL]

Drug Dealers are often Drug Users too...

As I am a fan of FS's Old Perugia Shock,
especially as it kept me informed while Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were imprisoned and before they were even convicted in the 1st trial, well I am sometimes reminded of a post or 2 that popped into mind.

Such is the case right now.
Folks are discussing how ol' Antonio "Toto" Curatolo was using heroin the night he suposedly saw AK+RS hangin' outside on a chilly November night for hours.

Here's a few pix of Curatolo:



You do know that right before Judge Hellmann's Appeal Trial,
you know, the 1 that Amanda and Raff free,
that Super Witness Antonio Curatolo was arrested and imprisoned, right?

He was not imprisoned for sleeping on a bench in public.
Nor for smoking a cigarette in a public park.
Nor for searching in garbage bins around town.

He was arrested because he was selling drugs.
Curatolo not only used drugs,
but sold them too!

Gotta keep that in mind when considering his testimony...


Speaking of which, I found a lil' info about that clock:

Perugian people are very reserved people, but, one year after the crime they finally started to remember and collaborate. With a little help.
So the accusations are basically confirmed, the case is solved.
<snip>
Then Toto the hobo, a late witness, saw Amanda and Raffaele at the basketball court checking if the police was coming because of the scream. When they realized that nobody had called the police and that the crime wasn't discovered they went back to the crime scene to start the cleaning, which lasted the whole night.
<snip>
While talking to Toto I had the impression that his testimony was studied because he says he saw them at the basketball court and right after he crossed the square to go check the clock, that's why he knew that it was almost midnight. It looked to me like those murderers who have ready the alibi-receipt for when the police will go question them. He remembered such details after 3 months and many meetings with the journalists who convinced him to talk. But then, it looks like he didn't study the part too well because in his deposition he says that in the square there were masks and witches (see picture bel.), so it was Halloween not the November 1st!

I thought Curatolo wore a watch?
Why did he get up to go look at the time?


Here's a coupla links-Dec. 2, 2008 post:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182529/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html

Another link-April 18, 2008 post:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182717/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html

 

[acbytesla]

Think that crime lab officials would never fake evidence? Think again.
Today, Former Massachusetts state drug lab chemist Annie Dookhan plead guilty to obstruction of justice, perjury and evidence tampering.

The disgraced former state drug lab chemist at the center of the state drug lab scandal that resulted in more than 330 prison inmates released from custody and more than a 1,000 criminal cases being dismissed.

 

[Poppy1016]

It is obviously not a match, the knife imprint on the bed is much smaller than the kitchen knife. Machiavelli is simply wrong about this.

I don't believe the knife from Raf's apartment was the murder weapon by a long shot. I was however wondering if the wrinkles in the bed sheet may have distorted the true shape and size of the real murder weapon.

 

[RWVBWL]

I don't believe the knife from Raf's apartment was the murder weapon by a long shot. I was however wondering if the wrinkles in the bed sheet may have distorted the true shape and size of the real murder weapon.

Hi Poppy1016,
Keep looking at that photo.

That blood spot,
as shown on Meredith Kercher's bed sheet right past the end,
in my humble opinion, is from dripping off the knife tip as Guede laid the murder weapon down.

Also check out the color and thickness of the blood on the bottom of the knife tips blade, which is also imprinted.

IMHO,
The REAL Knife,
The Murder Weapon, was curved up at the tip on the bottom,
and downwards on the top...

 

[Poppy1016]

No it doesn't. The only anchor in his testimony is the police on the following day. There is no anchor to Halloween.
And it is not true that there were no buses on that thursday: there are about 20 discos around Perugia outside the city which use bud-services and several were open.



You cannot make this kind of inference. Neurological impairement cannot be guessed. You can't say one person is neurologically impaired because takes heroin, this is completely unscientifical.



Couples can well sit outside and discuss for reasons that have nothing to do with privacy. They may not be ant one's house because they might have a problem in the couple, or because they like to be outside (this is Italy; there is movida, people live outside) or because they intend to go somewhere and do something that night.
Anyway I repeat the concept: I believe Curatolo indicates that a couple was sitting there for over one hour an a half, I have actually no doubt that this happened. The only reasonable question could be if it was them.

I thought he said 9:30- midnight. That would be 21/2 hrs.