Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

It's dark out and Curatolo says he saw them at a distance.

This is a problem.

Amid all the acres of bandwidth expended on the Curatolo testimony, I'm surprised no-one has picked up on this. Even Machiavelli admits that identifying Amanda and Raff in the conditions at the time "is a problem".

So the identification, by his admission, should never have been used as evidence. End of discussion.

 

[Machiavelli]

Heroin (or diamorphine) is a form of morphine, although it's stronger, faster acting and has a much greater euphoric effect.

One of the main reasons people don't like taking morphine is because it leaves them feeling sleepy and confused and visual hallucinations are not uncommon - the one thing it definitely doesn't allow is precise memories

It's only in this case that they can argue that cannabis turns you into a violent killer - and that heroin makes you a reliable witness with precise memories. You just couldn't make it up.

Actually, my experience is that people do like taking morphine, and they like it a lot. It doesn't leave them sleepy and confused. It might cause sleep, or semi-comatose states, then once the effect starts wearing out it has a relatively long half-life so the person might feel sleepy and weaker, but absolutely not confused. They can feel sleepy, not mentally confused. People who with intense pain or who are addicted to it, however don't have these collateral effect on sleep nor the physical effects. They just feel good for a while.
Besides that it does not cause mental confusion (while cocaine does), there is no hallucinatory effect attached to morphine, which is also citologically a non-toxic substance (morphine is very different under this point of view from other drugs such anaestethics like ketamine, diopenthal etc, amphetamines, alcohol, which can all have hallucinatory effects). The only effect basically is sleep. It also does not interfer with memory, in comparison to the most common lighest tranquilizers like benzodiazepines which instead may do.

Heroin or morphine does not "turn" people into something, such as reliable witnesses: a person is reliable (truthful, or capable to understand) or not inherently, by his/her nature.

 

[Antony]

Deleted

(sorry I'm posting using a smartphone with Tapatalk and it first posted prematurely and then wouldn't let me edit.)

 

[Machiavelli]

Here is that inconsistency of the thought process again. Curatolo was purely believable and an overall good guy, a credible witness despite the heroin problem BUT...
Knox can't be believed because she was a drug-seeking whore, all because she allegedly had a drug dealer's phone number in her phone (or vice versa -- whatever.)

No no, Knox can't be believed because what she says is inconsistent; not believable, and contradicted by witnesses and by findings.

 

[Machiavelli]

(..)

You may try to disagree on the interpretation of some of the details listed above, but you can perfectly see the basic data about the person’s profile.

The profile of Curatolo is just compatible with a scenario in which it is likely he committed crimes with Rudy Guede. Every rational person can see that.

Just say it’s compatible and move on.

Besides that you don't have any witness report about Curatolo's personality, the only problem is that you have no evidence that he committed a crime with Rudy Guede.

There is instead evidence - independent and solid eviedence - that Amanda Knox committed the crime together with Rudy Guede.
Hence, it must be Amanda Knox the suspect whose profile you need to check.

 

[Bill Williams]

Actually, my experience is that people do like taking morphine, and they like it a lot. It doesn't leave them sleepy and confused. It might cause sleep, or semi-comatose states, then once the effect starts wearing out it has a relatively long half-life so the person might feel sleepy and weaker, but absolutely not confused. They can feel sleepy, not mentally confused. People who with intense pain or who are addicted to it, however don't have these collateral effect on sleep nor the physical effects. They just feel good for a while.
Besides that it does not cause mental confusion (while cocaine does), there is no hallucinatory effect attached to morphine, which is also citologically a non-toxic substance (morphine is very different under this point of view from other drugs such anaestethics like ketamine, diopenthal etc, amphetamines, alcohol, which can all have hallucinatory effects). The only effect basically is sleep. It also does not interfer with memory, in comparison to the most common lighest tranquilizers like benzodiazepines which instead may do.

Heroin or morphine does not "turn" people into something, such as reliable witnesses: a person is reliable (truthful, or capable to understand) or not inherently, by his/her nature.

I can't believe you said this.

Nancy S's point is the salient one here. You have Knox and Sollecito turned into drugged out killers because of marijuana, but Curatolol as a reliable precision witness while under the influence of Heroin.

The only disagreement I have with NancyS is her observation that you cannot make up this stuff.

Apparently you can. Why do you embarrass yourself like this?

 

[Bill Williams]

No no, Knox can't be believed because what she says is inconsistent; not believable, and contradicted by witnesses and by findings.

Yet you say what you say about Curatolo and heroin and reliability of witnesses and we're supposed to believe you about Knox's truthfuln? Give your head a shake. Curatolo doesn't even know the day he's describing.

 

[Machiavelli]

But it definitely matters that he knows which night that was, doesn't it? If he saw a couple and also saw buses going to discos on the same night, then his testimony with respect to the mystery couple is anchored to Halloween.

No it doesn't. The only anchor in his testimony is the police on the following day. There is no anchor to Halloween.
And it is not true that there were no buses on that thursday: there are about 20 discos around Perugia outside the city which use bud-services and several were open.

How very odd. Are you suggesting that he was like someone taking pain medication after surgery? He was an addict, correct? A longterm addict, suggesting that neurological impairment was likely.

You cannot make this kind of inference. Neurological impairement cannot be guessed. You can't say one person is neurologically impaired because takes heroin, this is completely unscientifical.

Sorry, but this is not logical. Young couples do sometimes go out in public when they have something to discuss; so do friends and couples of other ages. But in the case of young couples, they do so because they can't have privacy otherwise. Amanda and Raffaele had a place to be together and discuss whatever they liked, so it doesn't make sense that they'd prefer to go stand for hours in a cold park where homeless people and heroin users were likely to be.

Couples can well sit outside and discuss for reasons that have nothing to do with privacy. They may not be ant one's house because they might have a problem in the couple, or because they like to be outside (this is Italy; there is movida, people live outside) or because they intend to go somewhere and do something that night.
Anyway I repeat the concept: I believe Curatolo indicates that a couple was sitting there for over one hour an a half, I have actually no doubt that this happened. The only reasonable question could be if it was them.

 

[Antony]

The only reasonable question could be if it was them.

There you go again. If they can't be identified beyond reasonable doubt then it's not evidence.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yet you say what you say about Curatolo and heroin and reliability of witnesses and we're supposed to believe you about Knox's truthfuln? (...)

Curatolo was believed by all courts who questioned him directly, so your generic opinions and prejudices are all beyond the point. The consistency of his words is before everyone to see, you can assess it yourself. My opinion about scientific properties of morphine doesn't matter (you are not in a position to object to it anyway).

Knox is instead a relevant point: she is inconsistent, not believable and she is contradicted by witnesses (such as Anna Donnino and Filomena) and by findings.
This is objective. It has nothing to do with Knox's morality or psychology. It is only the mind of the pro-Knox supporters that want to would like to make the credibility "depend" on her being called a "whore" or a "whitch".
Actually, it's you and your side who call Knox a whore (and Guede a pimp).

Knox is a liar because she is a liar, it's self-evident from her testimonies, oral and written, it does not depend on other judgements nor on any other inference about her personality.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
For the knife imprint, one can say with confidence* that it's compatible with a small knife whose blade profile is long and slender, tapering to a narrow point. One can therefore say with confidence that it's not compatible with Sollecito's kitchen knife, which has too wide a blade to have made the imprint, and which has a significantly different blade profile.

* In fact, one can analyse the knife imprint with far more accuracy and confidence than the bathmat print, since the knife print has sharply-defined edges and was made on a smooth, flat surface.

I think the knife imprint instead is an overlapping of lines left by an object which was moved, which do not allow to assess the size of the blade. The blade must have been at least 12 cm long and at least, or around a certain width, but a larger smaller object that was moved could have left the imprint. The edges indicate a contact with the blade edge, not necessarily they mean a profile of the object. I also think the sheet was not a flat nor a hard surface but had wrinkles, which further complicates.
Moreover the knife is made of materials (metal, plastic) which are hydrophobic and would get wet in a very irregular way.

So I believe the other way around: almost no assumption about the object can be made about the knife imprint, while the footprint can be determined compatible or not compatible with soem human subjects.

 

[GreyFox]

money trail ?

I would remove Migninis liberties. Also Stefanoni and Napolini and Biondo for starters.

The police and Mignini kept Lumumbas bar closed as a crime scene well past the time of his illegal detention. Shortly after Lumumbas release from prison he gave one critical interview to the DM for which he received re-numeration...a great deal of re-numeration. In this interview the reporter quotes him as saying that he was beaten by police, held without food or water, called a dirty black, and questioned without the legally required lawyer.

Now Lumumbass bar is kept closed as a crime scene...which is a transparent police tactic to starve him into shutting his mouth about the police abuse thing. There is further evidence of this behavior by police and prosecutor when Mignini attempted the very same thing later by charging Knox parents for a crime for repeating the truth their daughter related to them...also a bastardization of the law...a corrupt abuse that is as transparent and as obvious as Lumumbas bar being kept closed as a crime scene. When we all know that it never was and never could be a crime scene. So what was that? Police and prosecutor corruption and abuse of power and office. A mafia like tactic to get Lumumba to tow the party line. And look...he stopped mentioning the police abuse and started a case against Knox...

Do you think the world is dumb enough to not notice this? Perhaps you can fool a few noobs here but please save it from me. You guys are in it up to your chin...keep stirring the pot and soon you will be gulping shi....you know what.

Comodi will soon be answering questions...how on earth Mignini dodged this bullet is beyond me but anything seems possible in Italy....even ship Captains trip and fall into life boats I hear. And the scientist are too damn dumb to predict earthquakes...WTH?

Your case is transparent. If one wishes to fully investigate the house of cards you and yours have built for yourselves; well maybe you should check in with those earthquake scientists...your house has already started to fall...as it must.

You argue for an illogical mess that is insane baseless mumbo jumbo. Toto is what? He places AK and RS in the plaza during the time of the murder. But your argument is not thoughtful enough to notice that point. You only think that this disproves their alibi but lets not fool ourselves...the world is saying wait...how can they be the killers if the super witness says they are in the park from 9:30 to 12? So Mignini has no choice who to call as witnesses? Fine. Shame I never heard him dispute the Super Witness title for Toto.

You are defending a group of clearly guilty liars...the police and prosecution. No one will ever forget this. You have made it so insane that it is impossible to forget. Had you let it go...it may have started to die down...they even forgot about Kennedy after a time...shot 50 years ago today with an Italian rifle and Italian bullets. Huh![/QUOTE

Maybe Comodi paid off Lumumbass with the money collected for wiretaps and Mangina's cartoon porn ?

Curatalo said he seen two guys? Claimed to see her (Knox) all the time. Even pointed her out in court. Yet claims to have seen two guys talking that night. IDK maybe it's just the heroin kicking in. Two guys...Shuttle buses...Martians...Animated porn , what's next ?

 

[Diocletus]

Heroin or morphine does not "turn" people into something, such as reliable witnesses: a person is reliable (truthful, or capable to understand) or not inherently, by his/her nature.

Heroin and morphine use is compatible with a person being a drug-addled junkie.

 

[Diocletus]

So I believe the other way around: almost no assumption about the object can be made about the knife imprint, while the footprint can be determined compatible or not compatible with soem human subjects.

Lol. Every single piece of evidence is compatible with Guede breaking in, raping and killing.

Italian judicial reasoning is not compatible with intelligence.

 

[Diocletus]

Curatolo was believed by all courts who questioned him directly.

If by "believe" you mean they "believed" him to be a laughing stock, then, yes--I suppose that's true.

 

[Diocletus]

No no, Knox can't be believed because what she says is inconsistent; not believable, and contradicted by witnesses and by findings.

And also she was coerced by the cops. Obviously, anything said under coercion is not reliable.

 

[Antony]

Curatalo said he seen two guys? Claimed to see her (Knox) all the time. Even pointed her out in court. Yet claims to have seen two guys talking that night. IDK maybe it's just the heroin kicking in. Two guys...Shuttle buses...Martians...Animated porn , what's next ?

Sorry to disappoint, Greyfox, but the "2 guys" is a translation error out of Google Translate. A human translator would put "2 young people".

 

[Sergei Walankov]

Heroin or morphine does not "turn" people into something, such as reliable witnesses: a person is reliable (truthful, or capable to understand) or not inherently, by his/her nature.

And one fairly reliable shortcut to determining someone's truthfulness and capability to understand is whether they have found something better to do with their lives by the age of 60 than loitering in public spaces and shooting up heroin. Debates about the drug's hallucinogenic qualities seem to me secondary at best.

 

[LondonJohn]

Actually, my experience is that people do like taking morphine, and they like it a lot. It doesn't leave them sleepy and confused. It might cause sleep, or semi-comatose states, then once the effect starts wearing out it has a relatively long half-life so the person might feel sleepy and weaker, but absolutely not confused. They can feel sleepy, not mentally confused. People who with intense pain or who are addicted to it, however don't have these collateral effect on sleep nor the physical effects. They just feel good for a while.
Besides that it does not cause mental confusion (while cocaine does), there is no hallucinatory effect attached to morphine, which is also citologically a non-toxic substance (morphine is very different under this point of view from other drugs such anaestethics like ketamine, diopenthal etc, amphetamines, alcohol, which can all have hallucinatory effects). The only effect basically is sleep. It also does not interfer with memory, in comparison to the most common lighest tranquilizers like benzodiazepines which instead may do.

Heroin or morphine does not "turn" people into something, such as reliable witnesses: a person is reliable (truthful, or capable to understand) or not inherently, by his/her nature.

You probably need to get in touch with the people running the highly-regarded addictions.com website (run in collaboration with the US National Institute on Drug Abuse, NIDA), to tell them that they're wrong about heroin addiction and memory loss:

Signs of Heroin Addiction

When an individual is addicted to heroin, their brain is negatively affects in many ways. Some of these effects are quite noticeable while other signs of heroin addiction may be less easy to spot. Regardless, people who are addicted to heroin are likely to show some or even all of the following signs:

<snip>

- lack of memory, forgetting things or not remembering important events or matters

http://www.addictions.com/heroin/

 

[LondonJohn]

Curatolo was believed by all courts who questioned him directly, so your generic opinions and prejudices are all beyond the point. The consistency of his words is before everyone to see, you can assess it yourself. My opinion about scientific properties of morphine doesn't matter (you are not in a position to object to it anyway).

*cough* Hellmann *cough*