Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Am I reading your link correctly and these are the knives from Rafs kitchen?

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/cottageknives.jpg[/qimg]

No, those knives in the image taken from the link I provided are alleged to be the knives from the cottage shared by the four women. Meredith lay 20' from the kitchen where those knives were found. You don't see anythig there that you would want to examine, do you?
 
Mach are you being serious? Are you testing me? A knife with Meredith's blood DNA on it would have been probative to the extent that it would identify the murder weapon, which one would think is important.

But there isn't anything such "blood DNA". It's not something that you find, there isn't a thing which has such a "nature" that you could detect.
Most knifes have been in contact with blood and meat, hence they could retain traces of blood components. Most knifes have been in contact with human DNA, so they can retain humen cells.
You can't separate and distinguish these properties.
Meredith's DNA on a kitchen knife which belongs to her would be hardly probative.
 
No, those knives in the image taken from the link I provided are alleged to be the knives from the cottage shared by the four women. Meredith lay 20' from the kitchen where those knives were found. You don't see anythig there that you would want to examine, do you?

NOPE! They all look clean to me. The DNA would stand out like a ....like a ...scratch. AN invisible scratch....yea that's the ticket.
 
Excellent. No need to apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion then :rolleyes:

You have far bigger things to apologize and explain. Speaking about catalyzers and condescending remark about others' scientifical education, to start....

Now, about this "23 minutes" thing........

Yes. The video is 23 minutes long. Other questions?
 
You have far bigger things to apologize and explain. Speaking about catalyzers and condescending remark about others' scientifical education, to start....



Yes. The video is 23 minutes long. Other questions?

Do I have your permission to remind you that you believe the kitchen knife is a match for the blood imprint on the sheet? Or would you rsthet avoid the issue all together?
 
This is the problem when it comes to innocentisti logic. A most important point: whatever Curatolo saw, independently from its probative value, it can't be their alibi. In this case, 'alibi' would mean something that confirms their versions. They did not declare they were at Piazza Grimana that night, so if Curatolo tells the truth they are lying. And if they are lying, this would be anyway a piece of circumstantial evidence about their implication.

You also need to have clear in mind that Amanda Knox does not need to be on the murder scene in order to be implicated: the murder occurred in her apartment, which under some condition is considered a link itself; the simple fact that she lived in that house makes her a potential suspect and is a potential ground of implication.

TRegardless of budgetary reasons police statements of witnesses cannot be recorded, they must be redatcted, and anyway recordings/transcripts cannot be used in court by the law (unless it's a preliminary hearing or an investigative judge under some conditions).
There is no condradiction between Curatolo's previous statement, anyway, and his statement before Massei. The only difference is that in his previous statement he was not asked about the time when he arrived and doesn't say that. But he never says they were missing at times. The only important difference is the lack of this time of beginning of his observation.

Actually Curatolo's testimony is perfectly consistent and totally reliable, soo it looks to me.
The only problem in his testimony is the 30 meters distance.
This is an element which always made me think about.
I heve this element of doubt, which is entirely about the identity of the people he saw. This is the only problem I can see with Curatolo.
It's not an irrelevant problem. But I always considered Curatolo's testimony as marginal, actually irrelevant. (I did not list it among the evidence, as you may have noticed).
Curatolo did not witness to the suspects actually committing the murder, nor in a suspicious attitude. The only logical value of his testimony is that it denies their stories. But this is totally unnecessary since their stories are already proven false by other evidence, they are contradicted by Quintavalle and by phone records, and by the inconsistencies in the suspects' own accounts.

You're right about one thing, Curatolo's testimony does not confirm the alibi's provided by Amanda and Raffaele. It absolutely does contradict it. Never the less his testimony has them both squarely in the Piazza at the time of the murder. It provides them with a different alibi.

What Curatolo's testimony clearly proves is that Curatolo is a liar. Everything about his testimony is wrong and is a lie. It also demonstrates just how low the prosecution will go.
 
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No, you don't.

You're lying.

Again.

Oh yes I do think the match on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment.
And I don't think at all that the print shows a particular shape of the knife.

I don't think the stain is anyway an 'imprint' the way that a footprint would be, because the knife is not a foot. It's a light object that was smeared with blood irregularly and had a very partial contact with a sheet, and some blood dropped on it. There is little information this can offer, beyond an approximate lenght of the knife blade and an outline suggesting the shape of the point.
 
You're right about one thing, Curatolo's testimony does not confirm the alibi's provided by Amanda and Raffaele. It absolutely does contradict it. Never the less his testimony has them both squarely in the Piazza at the time of the murder.

What Curatolo's testimony clearly proves is that Curatolo is a liar. Everything about his testimony is wrong and is a lie. It also demonstrates just how low the prosecution will go.

But it makes no sense for the prosecution to fabricate specifically this lie.
If they wanted a lying witness, they could have instructed a witness to offer some far more suspicious and incriminating lie. As for your logic, they could have put in Curatolo's testimony whatever they wanted to. Curatolo could have said he say all three suspects, including Guede, meeting altogether in Piazza Grimana at a more convenient time and walk down towards the cottage for example.
 
Oh yes I do think the match on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife found in Sollecito's apartment.
And I don't think at all that the print shows a particular shape of the knife.

I don't think the stain is anyway an 'imprint' the way that a footprint would be, because the knife is not a foot. It's a light object that was smeared with blood irregularly and had a very partial contact with a sheet, and some blood dropped on it. There is little information this can offer, beyond an approximate lenght of the knife blade and an outline suggesting the shape of the point.

I take this, then, as a yes. You don't mind some time in the future being reminded you said this ridiculous thing.

You got upset when reminded that you'd once said tha G**** was Knox's p***. I just wanted you on the record that another ridiculous claim of yours would similarly not be denied. With you we have to do these things up front.
 
I wonder what is really going on here, why they are making an issue out of this particular expenditure after all the money they have squandered on this farce.

I would also like to see the animation. I am told Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked it.

Leak is one thing...I wonder if the new court gets to review it. Did Hellmann see it? The SC? Does anyone know?
 
You got upset when reminded that you'd once said tha G**** was Knox's p***.

No I never said that. (You are lying again).
Actually I always talked about a scenario which is incompatible with such allegation (I explained that Knox may have had a causal sexual encounter with Guede just the way she had with a number of other men and students - none of which were pimps; one maybe was a drug dealer).
You always lied about things I allegedly said. You lied on this one. Always. From minute one.
 
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Do I have your permission to remind you that you believe the kitchen knife is a match for the blood imprint on the sheet? Or would you rsthet avoid the issue all together?

I'll help you. You may say: "Machiavelli believes there is no conclusive evidence that the stain on the sheet is incompatibe with the kitchen knife".

or shorter:

"Machiavelli doesn't think the bed sheet stain is incompatible with the kitchen knife".

Do you like it?
 
Leak is one thing...I wonder if the new court gets to review it. Did Hellmann see it? The SC? Does anyone know?

I have been mulling over the issue of Comodi being investigated for ordering payment to the contractor for EUR 182,000. With no specific info to go on at this point except what was in the Italian newspaper article which included damage to the Treasury, I surmise that Comodi really blew a large hole in someone's budget. And that someone is really mad.

One issue is that there are contracting requirements which specify what can be paid for a task, and Comodi ordered an office to pay the large bill that was in violation of those requirements. It is probably something that cannot be resolved by going back to the contractor and getting a revised bill that more properly itemizes time, labor, allowable overhead, etc., because if that was the problem it would have been done already to avoid and head off a disciplinary court hearing. Which suggests it is not an invoice-clarification issue, but an issue of paying too much (exceeding permissible payment amounts) for labor, overhead, allowable profit, etc.

The contract was originally for production of an animation product. Later an additional task was added (database development work) to the contract. I wonder if that additional database task was added to disguise the fact that the original amount being spent for the animation was excessive - so excessive that it had to be obfusciated? What would the public have thought if it became known that the prosecutor was spending EUR 50,000 or 100,000 or 150,000 for a brief animation?
 
But it makes no sense for the prosecution to fabricate specifically this lie.
If they wanted a lying witness, they could have instructed a witness to offer some far more suspicious and incriminating lie. As for your logic, they could have put in Curatolo's testimony whatever they wanted to. Curatolo could have said he say all three suspects, including Guede, meeting altogether in Piazza Grimana at a more convenient time and walk down towards the cottage for example.

Please, they have nothing. Perhaps it is not the prosecution, but just that Curatolo is a liar.

Simple as that.

He's the kind of witness that an American attorney would never ever ever put on the stand. He's a homeless heroin addict. He has been a witness in 2 or is it 3 murder trials? He is incoherent. His testimony clearly shows he thinks the day is Halloween and not the day after. He admits taking heroin that evening. It's dark out and Curatolo says he saw them at a distance. And his story is ridiculous. Because there is no rationale for Amanda and Raffaele standing in the piazza for a couple of hours in the cold November evening when they could be in the cottage or Raffaele's flat.
 
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I'll help you. You may say: "Machiavelli believes there is no conclusive evidence that the stain on the sheet is incompatibe with the kitchen knife".

or shorter:

"Machiavelli doesn't think the bed sheet stain is incompatible with the kitchen knife".

Do you like it?

Thank you.

It's not exactly what you said, but it will do.

It's still completely ridiculous. Why do you claim stuff like this?

The other promise I need you to make is not to get mad when you reverse yourself some time in the future like you did with the pimp thing. And the Amanda could choose not to sleep thing.
 
You also need to have clear in mind that Amanda Knox does not need to be on the murder scene in order to be implicated: the murder occurred in her apartment, which under some condition is considered a link itself; the simple fact that she lived in that house makes her a potential suspect and is a potential ground of implication.

Does it also make Romanelli and Laura equally considered suspects and equally as potentially implicated?
The only problem in his testimony is the 30 meters distance.
This is an element which always made me think about.
I heve this element of doubt, which is entirely about the identity of the people he saw. This is the only problem I can see with Curatolo.
It's not an irrelevant problem. But I always considered Curatolo's testimony as marginal, actually irrelevant. (I did not list it among the evidence, as you may have noticed).

I am happy to see you have issues about something in the prosecution's case. When you can be critical of evidence presented by "your side," it gives you credibility, IMO. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad claiming I am stating Machiavelli is credible, I mean this in a general sense, for either side of any argument.
 
Thank you for finally admitting that my arguments are usually better then yours.

Than yours...don't worry everyone gets this one wrong...even Vogt misses this one occasionally I bet.

Actually my arguments are chock full of satirical, dripping mockery that is as offensive as the prosecution case brought against these two innocent persons.

The difference is that I am not trying to do or say anything to justify removing the liberty of innocent persons without a proper case or even any sort of evidence that indicates involvement in any way at all.

I think that it is quite clear by now that Hellmann and Zanetti got it fairly correct except that they still allowed the face saving calunia charge to go forward.

Though the law is clear that an offending party is guilty only when they know the other party is innocent. Something Knox had no way of knowing about Lumumba...even today Lumumba could possibly be a guilty assistant party of Guede.

The evidence is the changed SIM card plus Lumumbas association with Guede...this is undisputed. They knew each other certainly. Guede attended Lumumbas bar and being a rather obvious minority in Perugia is indisputable.

They know each other. Perhaps you can tell us about the demographics in Perugia. What percentage of the population of permanent residents is black? My guess would be less than 5 %...probably less than 1 %.

What does that mean? Not much actually. But I once stayed at a mostly European visited resort area...mother tongue was Spanish, 95 % of visitors were German, French, Italian and perhaps 1 or 2 % were English language visitors. Those 1 or 2 % stuck out (for me) like sore thumbs because we were the severe minority...(oh hi you speak English...blah blah") Lumumba knew Guede...Lumumba may still be involved. He provides no register receipts for certain times that could fall into the proper TOD.

IN short calunia is impossible...so Hellamnn was only semi honest as well. You live in a country that has a different idea about what honesty and integrity means. If you get close is good enough and if not close then at least lets all agree that we will stand together no matter how silly we make ourselves look.

So sure you make a lot of argument. But the answer to all of it is simple...B.S. Nothing more.
 
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Actually my arguments are chock full of satirical, dripping mockery that is as offensive as the prosecution case brought against these two innocent persons.

The difference is that I am not trying to do or say anything to justify removing the liberty of innocent persons without a proper case or even any sort of evidence that indicates involvement in any way at all.

I think that it is quite clear by now that Hellmann and Zanetti got it fairly correct except that they still allowed the face saving calunia charge to go forward.

Though the law is clear that an offending party is guilty only when they know the other party is innocent. Something Knox had no way of knowing about Lumumba...even today Lumumba could possibly be a guilty assistant party of Guede.

The evidence is the changed SIM card plus Lumumbas association with Guede...this is undisputed. They knew each other certainly. Guede attended Lumumbas bar and being a rather obvious minority in Perugia is indisputable.

They know each other. Perhaps you can tell us about the demographics in Perugia. What percentage of the population of permanent residents is black? My guess would be less than 5 %...probably less than 1 %.

What does that mean? Not much actually. But I once stayed at a mostly European visited resort area...mother tongue was Spanish, 95 % of visitors were German, French, Italian and perhaps 1 or 2 % were English language visitors. Those 1 or 2 % stuck out (for me) like sore thumbs because we were the severe minority...(oh hi you speak English...blah blah") Lumumba knew Guede...Lumumba may still be involved. He provides no register receipts for certain times that could fall into the proper TOD.

IN short calunia is impossible...Hellamnn was only semi honest as well. You live in a country that has a different idea about what honesty and integrity means. If you get close is good enough and if not close then at least lets all agree that we will stand together no matter how silly we make ourselves look.

So sure you make a lot of argument. But the answer to all of it is simple...B.S. Nothing more.


Allow me to say the following Randy. Patrick could be involved like Amanda could be involved, like Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn could be involved as I could be involved.

That is to say there is no reason to think any of these people were involved, but they could be.
 
Mignini has it figured out - how a knife with an 8" blade can leave a 5" bloodstain. The stain was originally 8". What's happened is the sheets have shrunk. Amanda noticed during the cleanup that they were too large for the bed - they were originally queen size sheets but Meredith's bed is a twin-size. So, being the good housekeeper that she is, Amanda put the sheets in the dryer to shrink them from queen to twin-size. The knife bloodstain shrank from 8" to 5".
<snip>


Here's a few comparison photo's of The Knife vs The Bloody Outline Stain on Miss Kercher's bed sheet:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9589955&postcount=3489


[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5656/dd6k.jpg[/qimg]

The trace O and an unsuccessful attempt to make it match The Knife. (above)
 
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