Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

<snip>Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

Still waiting.

 

[kwill]

Personally, I also believe the diaries were created as artifacts for defensive purposes, although, since the defendants were probably instructed to keep the diaries by their own attorneys, it stands to reason the defendants would assume the diaries would be used in court, not that they would be confiscated and released to the press, the very idea of which is ridiculous to observers in the modern world.

Regardless, I can't imagine it would ever occur to Amanda that her medical records would be released publicly, since that is against the law in the United States and apparently in Italy, as well. There is a difference between carefully creating a document versus writing something impulsively following a tremendous shock.

That all sounds right to me. Also, Machiavelli used this langague:

it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications.

Did she have a right to private documents (like a diary) but no right to private communications (like letters or transcripts of phone calls & prison visits)?

Or did she have no rights at all to anything except her own unspoken thoughts?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Then of course you take your shots at Raffaele and his family. His mom had problems and committed suicide. This of course is a tragedy, but it sure as hell looks like his sister and father came together and looked after each other.

It's not true. This is another baseless smear tossed out by the cops, like the non-existent scissors attack and the non-existent bleach receipts.

You keep saying that Raffaele was a collector of knives. Why? Since when is two or three knives "a collection"? I have a half a dozen pocket knives and some very good cooking knives and I am definitely not a collector.

The "knife collection" consisted of two pocket knives plus cutlery provided by the landlord. The "sadistic porn" consisted of a single comic book written for Japanese teenagers.

 

[Mary_H]

That all sounds right to me. Also, Machiavelli used this langague:

Did she have a right to private documents (like a diary) but no right to private communications (like letters or transcripts of phone calls & prison visits)?

Or did she have no rights at all to anything except her own unspoken thoughts?

And is there no lawyer-client confidentiality in Italy?

 

[acbytesla]

It's not true. This is another baseless smear tossed out by the cops, like the non-existent scissors attack and the non-existent bleach receipts.

So the suicide is also false...but I didn't think Machiavelli would repeat lies...

The "knife collection" consisted of two pocket knives plus cutlery provided by the landlord. The "sadistic porn" consisted of a single comic book written for Japanese teenagers.

That's what I thought Charlie, I knew Raff had two pocket knives in Perugia and of course the very cheap cooking knives.

It makes me laugh Charlie. If I got arrested tomorrow, would they say I had this extensive knife collection? After all, I have probably 4 or 5 times as many knives as Raffaele. I own knives, certainly, but I don't collect them.

I also own about ten screwdrivers ..is that a collection? And a socket set. Does that me a collector of automotive tools? Just curious. Can you clarify for me?

 

[RWVBWL]

Hmmmm...

I don't know who photocopied, how many people and how many times. It's impossible to know: how could I?
Maybe you misunderstood, I just don't believe "they" (the detectives) leaked it. It is impossible to rule out that no police officer at all leaked the diary to a journalist, but I don't believe the people involved in the investigation did.
They probably sent a copy to another office for the translation so it's really dificult for me to guess how many side persons picked it up.
Anyway: this is a diary. It's not HIV information or sexual information. It's something written by Amanda Knox. She is the one who decided the contents not the leakers, whoever the leaker was. I also believe it is evident that she wrote it as an artifact, for defensive purpose, expecting that the investigators would read it and that it would have publicity.
So we can't say "that the police leaked a list of sexual partners", no, what was leaked was the photocopy of a diary, but such diary was not to be considered private information: it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications. It's an artifact created by Knox.
<snip>

Heya Machiavelli,
Is this a page of The Diary of which you post about?





Look at the writing,
it's in Amanda's own style.

Weird how Amanda Knox,
imprisoned in your country while awaiting charges and an appearence in court,
does not ever mention having sex with a dude on a train, of which you, who is not a newcomer to this brutal murder case we discuss, has mentioned recently. What gives? Why wouldn't Amanda list The Train Dude if she really was worried, as your ^^^^^^ up doctors told her, that she had HIV?

Also, why the heck,
once again, did your Perugian police force or prosecutors office even release Amanda Knox's Diary?
Hmmmm...
RW

Link-June 26, 2008 post:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000243/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

So the suicide is also false...but I didn't think Machiavelli would repeat lies...


That's what I thought Charlie, I knew Raff had two pocket knives in Perugia and of course the very cheap cooking knives.

It makes me laugh Charlie. If I got arrested tomorrow, would they say I had this extensive knife collection? After all, I have probably 4 or 5 times as many knives as Raffaele. I own knives, certainly, but I don't collect them.

I also own about ten screwdrivers ..is that a collection? And a socket set. Does that me a collector of automotive tools? Just curious. Can you clarify for me?

You're not a serious socket collector unless the 10 mm and 9/16 are missing.

 

[Poppy1016]

1. I believe the police and prosecutor were working to pressure Raffaele to denounce Amanda as early as the night of Nov 6.
2. I believe Stefanoni willfully amplified the matter allegedly found on the knife blade far, far beyond what she knew her equipment could reliably and accurately process (too low, too low) in order to make a comparison, that she lowered her RFU standard to make it appear to work, and that she deliberately and falsely misread (cherry picked) certain data points and deliberately overlooked other data points in order to claim a match with the murder victim's DNA profile.
3. I believe that by mid-December the police and prosecutor knew that the Sollecito family had located a sample of Rudy's shoe model and intended to use it to expose the PLE's false claim that Raffaele's shoe matched the bloody shoeprints at the murder scene.
4. I believe that on December 18, 2007, the day Stefanoni collected the bra clasp, the police and prosecutor for whom she worked needed something physical and sensational to tie Raffaele to the crime and that there was no way Stefanoni was going to collect the bra clasp for the camera, take the bra clasp back to her lab in Rome for analysis, and take the chance that it was devoid of Raffaele's DNA.
5. I believe Stefanoni wiped with bra clasp hook with an article that contained Raffaele's DNA.
6. I believe Stefanoni willfully and knowingly immersed the metal-and-cloth bra clasp item in a liquid-filled storage container in oder to prevent it from being examined again.
7. I believe that on January 11 when Italy's most popular news program aired the news showing that the PLE's matching shoe/shoeprint claim is false that the PLE that same day disseminated their news that Stefanoni had found Raffaele's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.

I concur with all of the above.

 

[NancyS]

It's a bit unconvincing. She could have met him again but nothing happened. We know that he was at the downstairs apartment and that they talked to each other on that occasion. We know that Guede told his friends "I'd like to bang her" and this suggests he didn't do that by that time.
Moreover Knox's MySpace was not even very well updated, if I recall that correctly. She didn't have a 24h internet access at that time.

.

But she had already given her phone number to a drug dealer, then she had met Juve or some other, and she also started to have some coming outs about Meredith and Giacomo that we may define seductive (suggesting that she would be confortable being seen naked by her friend's boyfriends) and even jealous (her attempts to attract attention). Then, it was I think Sophie who recalled how Meredith found it strange about Amanda that she would be infatuated so quickly with guys and start intimate relations so instantly.
Knox seemed very ready to be completely caught by someone but also quite volatile. There is something immature, even childish, in her intensity and changes. So I really find it difficult to make inferences based on the assumption that Knox would be easilly predictable.

You don't put Meredith and her friends in a very good light, you make them sound quite gossipy and catty. Otherwise, you just seem to be grabbing at straws to make fairly normal and innocuous behaviour sound sinister.

The one thing that you're probably right about is that Amanda was immature about relationships - however, I don't think I've met many 20-year-olds that aren't - and this is absolutely no indication that she was into violent group sex.

I could say that Migini is compatible with being a swinger - they always tend to be older, overweight and a bit sweaty looking - and he's obviously obsessed with group sex and girl on girl action, if his prosecution theories are anything to go on.

 

[acbytesla]

You don't put Meredith and her friends in a very good light, you make them sound quite gossipy and catty. Otherwise, you just seem to be grabbing at straws to make fairly normal and innocuous behaviour sound sinister.

The one thing that you're probably right about is that Amanda was immature about relationships - however, I don't think I've met many 20-year-olds that aren't - and this is absolutely no indication that she was into violent group sex.

I could say that Migini is compatible with being a swinger - they always tend to be older, overweight and a bit sweaty looking - and he's obviously obsessed with group sex and girl on girl action, if his prosecution theories are anything to go on.

No, I don't think so. If that were true, he wouldn't be so obsessed with Amanda's sex life, he certainly wouldn't demonize her for it. No, he's a fat guy who can't get laid, so it upsets him that others are.

 

[NancyS]

No, I don't think so. If that were true, he wouldn't be so obsessed with Amanda's sex life, he certainly wouldn't demonize her for it. No, he's a fat guy who can't get laid, so it upsets him that others are.

I wouldn't be so sure, it's always the people that are publicly puritanical, self-righteous and judgemental that are eventually outed as spending their private time dressing as giant babies or dropping their keys in a bowl - you have to admit it's compatible. It's usually right wing politicians in the UK.

 

[LondonJohn]

What I found most disturbing in Knox's comment about the "most beautiful black man he ever met", is not his looking but the fact that she never revealed his name. Not even in her book.
Though, she knew for sure because this was a person to whom she promised they would meet again after her return from Germany.
I find it disturbing because you may count black men attending bars in Via Garibaldi just like you know your neighbours. Can you imagine how small the place is? How little the bars? Who is this unknown second black man? It should be extremly easy to identify him and find him if we just had his name.

I find this argument to be logically unsound.

Why did Knox "know for sure" the name of this black man? After all, it's entirely plausible that a) Knox knew she would recognise the man again by looks alone (and that's supported by the fact that in her opinion his appearance was well above the "ordinary"), and/or b) the short conversation that Knox and the man had had was along the lines of the man saying: "I'm in this particular bar most Friday and Saturday evenings, so just come in here when you get back to Perugia and I should be here."

In fact, I know "for sure" that I've made exactly similar casual arrangements to meet up with people (whether romantically or just as mates) in the past, and either first names were verbally exchanged (which are often quickly forgettable) or no names at all: "Hey, will you be here next week? You will? Great, I'll see you again then."

In my opinion, it's preposterous to suggest that Knox "must have known" the name of this man - as of course is its attendant innuendo that she has something to hide by not revealing his name publicly.

 

[acbytesla]

I wouldn't be so sure, it's always the people that are publicly puritanical, self-righteous and judgemental that are eventually outed as spending their private time dressing as giant babies or dropping their keys in a bowl - you have to admit it's compatible. It's usually right wing politicians in the UK.

I've always said, you never know what people are into sexually. If what you say was true, I'd hate him about ten times more than I do...(If that could be possible)

Because then he would be monster jerk of major proportions because he would not only would be a hypocrite, he would be a sociopath.

 

[LondonJohn]

But I have the entire minutes and statements, and no police officers gave them to me: they all came from lawyers. These statements were deposited at the prelimiary judge's office on Nov. 8. and were released to the atorneys on Nov. 6. This includes Lumumba attorneys and the civil party attorneys.
Everybody had them by that time.



You could complain both about transparency abd about secrecy. You have disadvantages in both cases.

Assuming for a moment that we're not talking about defence lawyers here....

Why would lawyers acting on behalf of either the Italian State, Lumumba, or the Kercher family be handing copies of minutes and statements to random unconnected commentators? I'm curious as to the motivation and/or benefit that might precipitate such actions (before we start to address issues of propiety...)

 

[LondonJohn]

I wouldn't be so sure, it's always the people that are publicly puritanical, self-righteous and judgemental that are eventually outed as spending their private time dressing as giant babies or dropping their keys in a bowl - you have to admit it's compatible. It's usually right wing politicians in the UK.

Yep. In fact, just yesterday allegations surfaced (with apparently corroborative video footage) of the former Chairman of a fairly large retail bank in the UK - who's also a Methodist minister - talking about buying and using various hard drugs including ketamine, cocaine and crystal meth, and boasting of having "massive gay orgies" and "drug-fuelled benders"

(And his body shape also closely resembles that of Mignini )

 

[acbytesla]

Posted Machiavelli

But I have the entire minutes and statements, and no police officers gave them to me: they all came from lawyers. These statements were deposited at the prelimiary judge's office on Nov. 8. and were released to the atorneys on Nov. 6. This includes Lumumba attorneys and the civil party attorneys.
Everybody had them by that time.

You could complain both about transparency abd about secrecy. You have disadvantages in both

And Machiavelli wants to pretend that the prosecutors weren't DELIBERATELY trying the case through the media. This is called poisoning the well.

Assuming for a moment that we're not talking about defence lawyers here....

Why would lawyers acting on behalf of either the Italian State, Lumumba, or the Kercher family be handing copies of minutes and statements to random unconnected commentators? I'm curious as to the motivation and/or benefit that might precipitate such actions (before we start to address issues of propiety...)

Propriety LJ? This certainly doesn't apply to their legal system.

 

[acbytesla]

Yep. In fact, just yesterday allegations surfaced (with apparently corroborative video footage) of the former Chairman of a fairly large retail bank in the UK - who's also a Methodist minister - talking about buying and using various hard drugs including ketamine, cocaine and crystal meth, and boasting of having "massive gay orgies" and "drug-fuelled benders"

(And his body shape also closely resembles that of Mignini )

There was Republican United State Senator from Idaho a couple of years ago. Anti-gay, Christian conservative who was caught seeking oral sex in an airport bathroom.

 

[RandyN]

That all sounds right to me. Also, Machiavelli used this langague: it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications.
What a stupid statement for Yummi to make. But considering he is Italian I am not surprised...I bet he thinks it is OK for the prosecutor and police to eavesdrop on the defendants and their lawyers too. Medieval backwards pigs.
But don't take my word for that...just look at the Italian record for human rights violations charged against it by the ECOHR. Worst of all western countries. By far the worst. And we had a front row seat for this abortion they called justice...lol. Idiots!

 

[LondonJohn]

And Machiavelli wants to pretend that the prosecutors weren't DELIBERATELY trying the case through the media. This is called poisoning the well.


Propriety LJ? This certainly doesn't apply to their legal system.

No, it certainly appears not (and thanks for replacing my missing "r" there )

Amidst all this talk of leaking, don't we have Nadeau's statement that documents/photos were being handed out "like confetti" to favoured journalists?

And of course there's also the financial incentive to consider. I imagine that certain people with access to the classified documents/photos would have known full well that a) the press (especially the British press) have a voracious appetite for salacious crime stories - especially where both the victim and one of the suspects are young attractive women; and b) the press (especially the British press) have sizeable budgets to fund these sorts of stories.

Whatever may or may not have happened, it's apparent that there are serious "chain of custody" problems in this area. In a proper system, all documents/photos/etc are kept securely, with each official copy numbered separately on each page. Copies can only be made under strict supervision, with any such authorised copies also being given their own number. In that way, it's far more likely that any leaks or losses can be traced back to the source. Oh, and there are things such as "misconduct in public office" and "misconduct in one's capacity as a lawyer" to think about too. Perhaps public officials and lawyers just laugh at such concepts in Italy - I don't know.

 

[RandyN]

You don't put Meredith and her friends in a very good light, you make them sound quite gossipy and catty. Otherwise, you just seem to be grabbing at straws to make fairly normal and innocuous behaviour sound sinister.

The one thing that you're probably right about is that Amanda was immature about relationships - however, I don't think I've met many 20-year-olds that aren't - and this is absolutely no indication that she was into violent group sex.

I could say that Migini is compatible with being a swinger - they always tend to be older, overweight and a bit sweaty looking - and he's obviously obsessed with group sex and girl on girl action, if his prosecution theories are anything to go on.

You do realize that Mignini grew up peeping down into a woman's prison right? I suppose this is where he picked up his obsession....especially the girl on girl action thing...this is why he cant let go of all his childhood fantasies. Knox must have wanted sex with MK... where else did he get that? From Carlizzi? What a sick perv! I would normally use a different four letter word other than perv...but they wont let me here.