Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Not the case file. The investigation file.

It was never filed.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>It's something written by Amanda Knox. She is the one who decided the contents not the leakers, whoever the leaker was.<snip>

Typical argument of irresponsible people who blame others as opposed to owning their own choices and behavior.

Where is Amanda's signed release for this material, indicating whom she intended it for?

 

[Machiavelli]

Okay, then, you're just a grammar snob? (I confess, I am, too, although I hope I wouldn't convict anyone of murder because of it.)

It's not me having a perverse relation with grammar. It's Raffaele who has a remarkable problem with it. I'm talking about he alone, not Southern Italians.
He had also extremely low grades at the University of Perugia, if you want to know that. He took his degree with a mak of 96, normally in Italy any final mark below 100 is considered trash.

And now I understand why you won't say Rudy played the ethnicity card with the judges -- he's not an ethnic Italian. Is that right?

Rudy Guede was not talking to judges, he sent his letter to a newspaper.

 

[kwill]

Guede was a high school dropout, a hanger on - a person who at best had insinuated himself into the student life of Perugia, whilst possessing no legitimate standing. AK was a good student, a person with a solid family life, supportive friends and personal ambitions. She came to Italy for a semester abroad, and had enrolled in a structured course of study. In short order, she glommed onto RS, a person of similar class, standing and ambitions.

Guede was a robber and a shiftless loser, and did not fit the profiles of her background or friendships. For those who are not interested in trumping up preposterous, groundless fantasies about Knox's predilections, it's really not that complicated.

The quote above is exactly a paradigm example of what I consider the "anthropological prejudice" that I find so obnoxious and repulsive. An egregious falsehood, and what essentially blinds the Knox-supporters.

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer and they had each other's phone numbers; reality check 2: who is Federico? What's his job?; reality check 3: Guede and Knox (and Meredith) attended the same parties and the same bars and shared the same friends).

Wow. You definitely hang a lot on that "cocaine dealer" phone number exchange, don't you? And yet it's full of unknowns . . .who was he, was he really a dealer, would she have known that, etc.

Guede was around because playing basketball connected him to the boys downstairs. He wasn't around because he was a natural fit in the lives of the girls upstairs.

I find your concepts of "legitimate standing" and "class" utterly disgusting, as well as the most vague idea "personal ambitions", probably unattached to reality (we know how Sollecito described Knox).

I don't. I find them obvious. His adoptive family gave him the boot, correct? Because he wouldn't even work at the job they arranged for him, correct? He had no source of income and he had alienated the people who tried to help him.

But they are also false. "Solid family life", "supportive": Sollecito: a suicide mother, a person collecting knifes and sadistic porn, no relations, his father tells him what to do and calls him every evening,

That's very ugly -- you might even say it's obnoxious and repulsive. His mother died. He had a couple of pocket knives. He had one unopened manga comic that could be called "sadistic porn" -- and if you mean he was inexperienced sexually by the phrase "no relations", I'm going to have to pause to bang my head on the table. Please tell me that isn't what you mean by that phrase. I think being close to his father is the very definition of having a "supportive" family. Is there some amount of phone calls that would fit this description better? Is one a week permitted?

he deployed a command of Italian and school education so lower compared to Guede (his last appeareance this month, an embasassing performance: he kind of plaid the ethnicity card with the judges "I'm Italian, as you are", but the problem is, I was thinking, you wouldn't guess his nationality from his command of grammar).

But he was awarded a degree from an italian university, yes? He passed his exams?

Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

Ummm. First thing that comes to mind is that maybe you can hang out when he gets out of prison in a year or so if you found him to be so appealing. Second is, I thought he took the option not to testify. I thought that Mignini had to read the letter Guede supposedly composed into the record because Guede couldn't pronounce the words.

 

[Mary_H]

It's not me having a perverse relation with grammar. It's Raffaele who has a remarkable problem with it. I'm talking about he alone, not Southern Italians.
He had also extremely low grades at the University of Perugia, if you want to know that. He took his degree with a mak of 96, normally in Italy any final mark below 100 is considered trash.

So Raffaele is bad because his grades were low and Amanda is bad because hers were high. I get it.

Rudy Guede was not talking to judges, he sent his letter to a newspaper.

So what did he say with such elegance when he spoke in court?

Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant. (post 6563)

 

[acbytesla]

The quote above is exactly a paradigm example of what I consider the "anthropological prejudice" that I find so obnoxious and repulsive. An egregious falsehood, and what essentially blinds the Knox-supporters.

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer and they had each other's phone numbers; reality check 2: who is Federico? What's his job?; reality check 3: Guede and Knox (and Meredith) attended the same parties and the same bars and shared the same friends).

I find your concepts of "legitimate standing" and "class" utterly disgusting, as well as the most vague idea "personal ambitions", probably unattached to reality (we know how Sollecito described Knox).
But they are also false. "Solid family life", "supportive": Sollecito: a suicide mother, a person collecting knifes and sadistic porn, no relations, his father tells him what to do and calls him every evening, he deployed a command of Italian and school education so lower compared to Guede (his last appeareance this month, an embasassing performance: he kind of plaid the ethnicity card with the judges "I'm Italian, as you are", but the problem is, I was thinking, you wouldn't guess his nationality from his command of grammar).
Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

I find this interesting Machiavelli less than a couple of weeks ago you posted that a middle aged woman with what looked like a stable life would be unlikely to be promiscuous. Isn't that the same kind of anthropological prejudice?

By your logic all the women in Perugia might hook up with Rudy.

I actually agree with you that Rudy's social position isn't really a barrier to a hook up with Amanda.

As for the rest of your rant. It is of course bull. You have a remarkable way of speculating guilt third and fourth hand. Ever hear about 6 degrees of separation? I'm guessing you do because you think the acquaintance of an acquaintance is somehow a friend of mine. T

The fact is the boys downstairs barely knew Rudy and they lived there in Perugia far longer than Amanda's 42 days.

Rudy, Raffaele and Amanda all lived within a dozen blocks of each other. Perugia is a college town and Rudy was college age, he also went to the college parties. There are always kids that don't go to college that end up at these parties. That doesn't mean the college girls give them the time of day or that they happened to be at the same parties at the same time.

You don't just posit "guilt through association", you posit "guilt through an association with an association". The first is wrong, the second is absurd.

I do like how you say Amanda had "contacts" with a cocaine dealer. Such an amorphous statement which of course could mean anything and nothing. One, we have never seen a cite to prove you obscene innuendo. Two, if in fact this drug dealer did have her phone number, there is no way to know how he got it.

Then of course you take your shots at Raffaele and his family. His mom had problems and committed suicide. This of course is a tragedy, but it sure as hell looks like his sister and father came together and looked after each other.

You keep saying that Raffaele was a collector of knives. Why? Since when is two or three knives "a collection"? I have a half a dozen pocket knives and some very good cooking knives and I am definitely not a collector.

You have a double standard for your logic..but of course you know that.

 

[Machiavelli]

Typical argument of irresponsible people who blame others as opposed to owning their own choices and behavior.

Behaviours like writing down letters and diaries while you are in regime of solitary confinement.
Do you know what solitary confinement is? It means you are not having free communication. Your talks and writings are all intercepted.
The code known as ordinamento penitenziario will tell you.

Where is Amanda's signed release for this material, indicating whom she intended it for?

Knox's attorneys would tell her what being a person deprived of personal liberty means.

 

[Machiavelli]

I find this interesting Machiavelli less than a couple of weeks ago you posted that a middle aged woman with what looked like a stable life would be unlikely to be promiscuous. Isn't that the same kind of anthropological prejudice?

No, I said that the woman (who I placed living in another neighborhood) would be unlikely to have a sexual encounter with Guede for fun.

Profiling versus anthropological prejudice.

It means: facts of reality, versus prejudicial ideas.

 

[Mary_H]

Behaviours like writing down letters and diaries while you are in regime of solitary confinement.
Do you know what solitary confinement is? It means you are not having free communication. Your talks and writings are all intercepted.
The code known as ordinamento penitenziario will tell you.

Knox's attorneys would tell her what being a person deprived of personal liberty means.

You stated: the original always formally belonged to Amanda Knox.

What does that mean?

 

[Skind]

I also believe it is evident that she wrote it as an artifact, for defensive purpose, expecting that the investigators would read it and that it would have publicity.

In other words, you believe that Knox was familiar enough with the Italian system to know that:

a) her diary could be taken
b) it could be leaked

..........yet, if Knox's lawyers were doing the leaking, there would be no need to contrive an 'artifact' for the investigators - just leak it through her own lawyers.

In other words, to make it all work, Knox must have no knowledge that her lawyers could or would leak, but an expectation that the police would......

 

[RWVBWL]

Raff vs Rudy?

Gosh,
I love it when Machiavelli compares Raff to Rudy,
without using photo's...

Here's a couple to remind you of the real deal:
Raff
(who has a sister who held a job with Italy's prestigous Carabininieri)
at college, from which he was to graduate in a couple of weeks,



and here's Rudy Guede,
a man with no job,
who was not attending school, who did not even have a girlfriend.


Surely NOT the most beautiful black man Amanda Knox had ever seen,

especially as seen in this photograph taken AFTER he ran away to Germany when Meredith was murdered and raped!

I really luv the tongue stickin' out, kinda shows some, what's the word, remorse
for not calling 118 for an ambulance to come and save Meredith,
whom "Poor Rudy" was on a 1st date with.
Right...


Question for you:
Don't you too find it weird how Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito DID NOT flee the country also,
as Rudy Guede did, after the horrible brutal murder of Miss Kercher?

I do, and so I wonder why they too did not just flee, at least to Gubbio?
RW


PS-Here's a little more info on scumbag Rudy Guede:
from FS, who did attend court back then, unlike Grinder:

Abukar Mohamed “Momi” Barrow, who says Rudy was drinking too much, taking cocaine, kind of harassing girls, stealing their purses.

And for you folks were pondering the other day who it was that saw Rudy Guede dancin' during a moment of silence at a bar back in 2007. Reading the Old Perugia Shock,I found this from FS:

Giulia Devis, who saw Rudy keeping on dancing during the minute of silence for Meredith

.

Link:
See posting Sept. 16, 2008
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000154/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

 

[Machiavelli]

(...) I thought that Mignini had to read the letter Guede supposedly composed into the record because Guede couldn't pronounce the words.

The fact that you believe or make up such a thing, it says everything about your understanding.

 

[kwill]

Maybe you misunderstood, I just don't believe "they" (the detectives) leaked it. It is impossible to rule out that no police officer at all leaked the diary to a journalist, but I don't believe the people involved in the investigation did.

Interesting. Do you think they leaked the misleadingly edited transcripts of her conversation with her mother?

Anyway: this is a diary. It's not HIV information or sexual information. It's something written by Amanda Knox. She is the one who decided the contents not the leakers, whoever the leaker was.

Astonishing. We're talking about both HIV and sexual partners that were known ONLY because of that diary.

I also believe it is evident that she wrote it as an artifact, for defensive purpose, expecting that the investigators would read it and that it would have publicity.

Even more astonishing! You believe that Amanda Knox wanted the whole world to know the details of her private life?? Why do you think that, when she refused to give a single interview to a single reporter for all the time she was imprisoned?

So we can't say "that the police leaked a list of sexual partners", no, what was leaked was the photocopy of a diary, but such diary was not to be considered private information: it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications. It's an artifact created by Knox.

Has it occurred to you that this young woman (who had kept diaries all her life without sharing them) had no way of knowing that her diary wasn't private? Most of us don't understand that being investigated for murder means anything we've ever said or written can be made public. This case has hopefully shown normal citizens how that works.

No. Basically all parties involved need to recover everything on their own. There is an advice that everything is "ready" (the investigation closed) at some moment, but that will be very late.

Thank you. That's a very interesting system.

 

[acbytesla]

It's not me having a perverse relation with grammar. It's Raffaele who has a remarkable problem with it. I'm talking about he alone, not Southern Italians.
He had also extremely low grades at the University of Perugia, if you want to know that. He took his degree with a mak of 96, normally in Italy any final mark below 100 is considered trash.

So Raffaele is bad because his grades were low and Amanda is bad because hers were high. I get it.

96 is trash Machiavelli? Bull. Last week you said the University for Foreigners was a bad school. Do you always talk out of you anal region? When I looked up what the UW had to say, they said it was the most prestigious language school for non-native speakers in Italy.

 

[Machiavelli]

You stated: the original always formally belonged to Amanda Knox.

What does that mean?

It means it's an object of her property; so it will be returned to her.

Meanwhile, the investigators can use it.

 

[Skind]

The fact that you believe or make up such a thing, it says everything about your understanding.

So who read Guedes letter?

 

[acbytesla]

No, I said that the woman (who I placed living in another neighborhood) would be unlikely to have a sexual encounter with Guede for fun.

Profiling versus anthropological prejudice.

It means: facts of reality, versus prejudicial ideas.

Nope, it is prejudice and ignorance. How would you know Mach? My experience is that you NEVER know what other people do sexually.

I've known lots of upstanding middle class women who get bored and take a walk on the wild side.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Anyway: this is a diary. It's not HIV information or sexual information. It's something written by Amanda Knox. She is the one who decided the contents not the leakers, whoever the leaker was. I also believe it is evident that she wrote it as an artifact, for defensive purpose, expecting that the investigators would read it and that it would have publicity.
So we can't say "that the police leaked a list of sexual partners", no, what was leaked was the photocopy of a diary, but such diary was not to be considered private information: it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications. It's an artifact created by Knox.<snip>

Personally, I also believe the diaries were created as artifacts for defensive purposes, although, since the defendants were probably instructed to keep the diaries by their own attorneys, it stands to reason the defendants would assume the diaries would be used in court, not that they would be confiscated and released to the press, the very idea of which is ridiculous to observers in the modern world.

Regardless, I can't imagine it would ever occur to Amanda that her medical records would be released publicly, since that is against the law in the United States and apparently in Italy, as well. There is a difference between carefully creating a document versus writing something impulsively following a tremendous shock.

 

[Mary_H]

It means it's an object of her property; so it will be returned to her.

Meanwhile, the investigators can use it.

If the investigators can use it without her permission, then it is not hers.

If it is "an object of her property," then some thief stole it and was not prosecuted for breaking the law, as with so many other aspects of ILE behavior.

 

[kwill]

I thought that Mignini had to read the letter Guede supposedly composed into the record because Guede couldn't pronounce the words.

The fact that you believe or make up such a thing, it says everything about your understanding.

I do believe it, and I didn't make it up. I think it's mentioned in both Amanda and Raffaele's books, as well as here.

Guede has refused to be cross-examined. He appeared at Knox’s last trial only to present a letter that pointed the finger at both college students. Embarrassingly, prosecutor Giuliano Mignini . . . had to read Guede’s letter to the court. Although loudly proclaiming his innocence, Rudy could not manage that feat. It was almost as if he had no hand in writing it.

Maybe they all imagined it.