Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LondonJohn]

Of course… you explain what's 'international'… ... if alcohol were a solid in room temperature ... Alcohol is indeed liquid at room temperature, but alcohol in water is a solution. Solute is expressed by its mass (volume of some solutes may vary a lot with temperature, pressure). Alcohol is also a substance chemically active in the human system, a drug/medicament (as well as an energy fuel for cell metabolism). Since a human person is not a bottle of drink (there, the volume tells everything you need to now) maybe, in many countries doctors do consider it as a drug rather than as a liquid, because concentrations of all chemically active molecules (drugs, medicaments) is always referred to by their mass amount.

Going a bit overboard with the emoticons there?

Perhaps you can give me a cite that liquids in solution in other liquids are always expressed in mass-per-unit-volume measures. I'll enjoy waiting for that.... (PS: what about the changing volumes of the solvent with temperature or pressure? Doesn't this mean (per your "argument") that concentrations should in fact be given in mass-per-unit-mass? Oops!)

Oh, and while you're at it, perhaps you can explain why liquid medicines (morphine, cyclizine etc) are given in volume form. That seems to be in conflict with your "argument".

… “massive and fundamentally important difference”… you magnify properties of a TMB test which you maybe pompously call “proper” (because of the “two stages” ! ), you say I “obviously didn’t study science beyond a very basic level…”
… and then you write… “the peroxide catalyser” . (!)

You go on explaining repeating that peroxide is the catalyser. It is an oxidant. Hemoglobine is the catalyser.

It's already very clear that you don't understand the science here regarding the TMB test. Who knows, perhaps you DO now at least understand that the two-part TMB test is necessarily far higher specificity than the Hemastix test. If you do, it's interesting that you hide any acknowledgement about that behind further attacks on small inconsequential matters. Interesting indeed.

Oh, and I realise you may have googled some scientific literature that mentions "peroxide" and "oxidant" in the same sentence, and that you may have got excited because you thought you'd "caught me out". Well, bad luck. Peroxide is indeed the oxidant, but its role in this TMB test is also to act as the catalyser of the reaction with the iron. And (oops) Haemoglobin (or "hemoglobin" in the US, but most definitely never "hemoglobine") is the catalyst, not the catalyser. That you don't know the difference between these two terms tells me all I need to know.

Who'd have thought it? Two "epic fail" attempts at arguments within 24 hours!

 

[Kaosium]

Some strange result in the SALs.

Knox's mop tests positive to TMB (circled in red). False positive?

And next, one of the SALs showing several TMB obvious false negatives on the visigle drops of cat blood.

It is hardly surprising that a mop used in an Italian home would contact material that would give a false positive to a presumptive blood test. Some of those vegetables, spices and stuff that make Italian food so popular worldwide also simulate peroxidase activity just like hemoglobin. There's also a whole number of other things, like in the papers you just posted.

That's why they have confirmatory tests, and why the mop disappeared from the case.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is hardly surprising that a mop used in an Italian home would contact material that would give a false positive to a presumptive blood test. Some of those vegetables, spices and stuff that make Italian food so popular worldwide also simulate peroxidase activity just like hemoglobin. There's also a whole number of other things, like in the papers you just posted.

That's why they have confirmatory tests, and why the mop disappeared from the case.

Yes. The constant refrain in all this is "Where the hell are the confirmatory tests?"

Perhaps someone should laminate that sentence and pin it above Stefanoni's work area

 

[Kaosium]

Yes. The constant refrain in all this is "Where the hell are the confirmatory tests?"

Perhaps someone should laminate that sentence and pin it above Stefanoni's work area

Which ought to be Capanne, working in the laundry measuring out detergent for all the denizens there. Then returning to her lightly furnished domicile at the state-provided high-security 'assisted living' facility.

 

[Diocletus]

I cant imagine someone is authorizing Vogt access to the Costa Concordia wreck and documents. Now how could such a biased shill pretending to be a professional gain such access? Hummmm? Someone should inform perhaps a huge company like Discovery Channel of her clearly lop sided attack on clearly innocent persons. Someone who actually goes after a doctor why? Will Dr Hamp go after her in court? I would.

The best part about Vogt's article is her faux outrage about "tax dollars" being used to fund the defense. She couldn't care less about US tax dollars. Also, she has no idea whether and how Hampikian's work is being funded. And in any event, it would not be unusual or improper for a University to allow, support or even contribute to the Innocence Project.

The root of Vogt's issues is that she's just not very bright.

 

[Bill Williams]

I always get a kick out of the impotent threats of P-U Quennell. He has been ranting and raving about the end of the world as we know it for almost six years. Has anything he's promised ever come to pass?

I guess this is where stilicho got the idea the curtain has begun to descend, as he wrote earlier today. You can read the whole piece on TJMK, but I thought it would be fun to edit it to leave in just the empty threats. You can almost hear the sputters and feel the spittle.



Keeping in mind that Pete also promised the ballerina he was stalking/blackmailing that he was getting in shape and there was "more of that to come....," too, there is no doubt Sharlene Martin, Senator Cantwell, and Raffaele are all shaking in their boots right about now.

(This comment will be retracted if PQ actually got in shape.)

Didn't Fast Pete promise the private jet that would whisk people away from the court in 2011?

Then again it was Michael who promised the bleach receipts which would throw the case wide open. Michael still claims to have them.

Machiavelli claims to have the transcript which proves that Mignini never advanced a Satanic rite. You know - "riti" as it says in Italian.

But I should talk. I've mis-called just about every judicial decision coming out of Italy. I'd like to blame Italy for that... but that would be sour grapes and wouldn't do anyone who's currently in harms' way any good.

Didn't Pete, though, say his inside sources were telling him Raffaele's lawyer had quit?

 

[moije2]

This video is classic Andrea Vogt. She blames the Knox/Mellas's for creating the we/they atmosphere in the media.... which is highly ironic when is was reporters like Vogt who allowed falsehoods to be printed in her name and never corrected them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhS0273-3m0

Now she is recommending that anonymous Wiki's be cited as a reliable source for information... and she is resurrecting old news to try to taint the Idaho Innocence project, just ahead of a Florence court ruling on DNA evidence.

I think this is called "inserting yourself into the story". At least the Condom Guy in the background of the video gets his message across.

That was enjoyable to watch Bill. What a collection of empty mannerisms. To think of her comments at the time of the acquittals where she announced the pro guilt slogan about keeping Meredith in the forefront of the story "because in the end she is the one true victim in this case". Clearly implying that AK and RS (of course they really aren't interested in him, that little piece of afterthought) were not also victimes. After spending 4 years in prison. And, again, at the time of their slamming acquittal. No lack of partisanship there.

 

[Bill Williams]

Mach's sole purpose is to twist and confuse every issue by means of lengthy twisted gibberish. Of course Mignini implied, if not directly stated, a satanic ritualistic murder was comitted.

I think so, too, but Machiavelli (unlike you and me) claims to have the proof which can end this debate right here, right now.

And he won't post it. THEN he has the gall to try to slide into the conversation that he's already "proved" his claim, and accuses people of being wilful in reposting what to Barbie Nadeau and John Kercher (to name two) was obvious.

So far, without saying why, Machiavelli has called me willfull, Barbie N. a liar (an "approximate reporter"), and John Kercher "mistaken".

 

[Bill Williams]

That was enjoyable to watch Bill. What a collection of empty mannerisms. To think of her comments at the time of the acquittals where she announced the pro guilt slogan about keeping Meredith in the forefront of the story "because in the end she is the one true victim in this case". Clearly implying that AK and RS (of course they really aren't interested in him, that little piece of afterthought) were not also victimes. After spending 4 years in prison. And, again, at the time of their slamming acquittal. No lack of partisanship there.

She's very much part of the shame game, rather than reporting.

But your comments are right on. No one should forget Meredith, or any victim of any crime. But it is the height of meanness to want to use that only as leverage to blame others.

Isn't THAT a little disrespectful of the victim?

 

[Grinder]

Is Vogt prosecuting this case? As a journalist, should she be inserting herself like this?

Maybe Machiavelli has an opinion.

Goose/gander. Pot/kettle.

Do you believe in Satan? I didn't see your answer.

Do you eliminate God or faith as possible cause or motive a priori?

Have you provided an Italian source for "Satanic Rite" or any source besides Kercher and Barbie?

ETA - would you accept his transcripts as proof that Mignini never claimed "Satanic Rite" if no such mention was there? I doubt it?

 

[Grinder]

That was enjoyable to watch Bill. What a collection of empty mannerisms. To think of her comments at the time of the acquittals where she announced the pro guilt slogan about keeping Meredith in the forefront of the story "because in the end she is the one true victim in this case". Clearly implying that AK and RS (of course they really aren't interested in him, that little piece of afterthought) were not also victimes. After spending 4 years in prison. And, again, at the time of their slamming acquittal. No lack of partisanship there.

I'm sure someone else has pointed out that the guy in the background wearing the half black and the half white suit looks at lot like what Mach probably looks like.

 

[Bill Williams]

Goose/gander. Pot/kettle.

Do you believe in Satan? I didn't see your answer.

Do you eliminate God or faith as possible cause or motive a priori?

Have you provided an Italian source for "Satanic Rite" or any source besides Kercher and Barbie?

Whatever.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm sure someone else has pointed out that the guy in the background wearing the half black and the half white suit looks at lot like what Mach probably looks like.

It is the Condom Guy... he also punked one of the other American reporters the night of the acquittal. I thought Wolf Blitzer back in the studio in NY was going to collapse in laughter....

 

[Grinder]

It is the Condom Guy... he also punked one of the other American reporters the night of the acquittal. I thought Wolf Blitzer back in the studio in NY was going to collapse in laughter....

Yes and does that make him not Mach?

Bill you respond with "whatever". Now I wish that you would also respond as concisely to Mach.

I would like to know if you believe in Satan. I don't and think that your beliefs color this discussion.

I also think that you are disingenuous regarding Italian transcripts that you can't read.

When Vogt advocates it is some giant deal but when Candace does it your response is "whatever".

Mignini has never been quoted as saying Satanic Rite regarding the Kercher murder that I have ever read. Please provide the proof since it is your contention.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes and does that make him not Mach?

Bill you respond with "whatever". Now I wish that you would also respond as concisely to Mach.

I would like to know if you believe in Satan. I don't and think that your beliefs color this discussion.

I also think that you are disingenuous regarding Italian transcripts that you can't read.

When Vogt advocates it is some giant deal but when Candace does it your response is "whatever".

Mignini has never been quoted as saying Satanic Rite regarding the Kercher murder that I have ever read. Please provide the proof since it is your contention.

The condom guy is well known, has a wiki page. If Mach is him that would be Mach 4.

No one is accusing Satan of being involved with this crime. Besides Italy could never extradite. Satan is quite irrelevant as is most of your post. Please spot the mistake.

Since you distrust me so, go find your own Italian speaker, preferably someone who's never heard of Mignini or Perugia. Mine provided a translation and came away thinking Mignini a complete whack job.

You see this is not about Satan. Besides, Satan is now worried that the association with Mignini might give evil a bad name.

Extradition between Italy and you-know-where is always one way.

 

[moije2]

Yes and does that make him not Mach?

Bill you respond with "whatever". Now I wish that you would also respond as concisely to Mach.

I would like to know if you believe in Satan. I don't and think that your beliefs color this discussion.

I also think that you are disingenuous regarding Italian transcripts that you can't read.

When Vogt advocates it is some giant deal but when Candace does it your response is "whatever".

Mignini has never been quoted as saying Satanic Rite regarding the Kercher murder that I have ever read. Please provide the proof since it is your contention.

I am interested - a little bit - in this conversation. I don't know if Bill believes in Satan, or how important that is. What the question is, in my opinion, is does Mignini believe in Satan? Gee, now I am capitalizing his name. Maybe that is the proper way to frame this issue. For me, the mere fact that Mignini is at a conference with Satan as a subject is almost humorous. And I would ask you, Grinder, if you don't find that a bit bizarre. I suppose in Italy or Perugia that is a subject worthy of discussion. Even if Mignini is there to deny that it (Satanism) was or should be a factor in evaluating cases. And it appears that Mignini has stated under some circumstances at least that it should be considered. Maybe not this case.

it seems like Bill is chasing after confirmation of a suspicion re Mignini and Satanism, whereas you want it taken out of the conversation until stronger proof is available.

For myself, I certainly allow for the possibility that it was media created myth that Mignini was initially applying religious overtones re Satanism to the case at hand. But their is reason to be suspicious. Whatever Satanism is, be it a specific set of rituals around Satan, or whether a loose association to Halloween and hobgoblins will qualify. Sheesh. Look at the level of conversation or thought! What is it about this case that makes a person even delve into such thought patterns...?

 

[Bill Williams]

I am interested - a little bit - in this conversation. I don't know if Bill believes in Satan, or how important that is. What the question is, in my opinion, is does Mignini believe in Satan? Gee, now I am capitalizing his name. Maybe that is the proper way to frame this issue. For me, the mere fact that Mignini is at a conference with Satan as a subject is almost humorous. And I would ask you, Grinder, if you don't find that a bit bizarre. I suppose in Italy or Perugia that is a subject worthy of discussion. Even if Mignini is there to deny that it (Satanism) was or should be a factor in evaluating cases. And it appears that Mignini has stated under some circumstances at least that it should be considered. Maybe not this case.

it seems like Bill is chasing after confirmation of a suspicion re Mignini and Satanism, whereas you want it taken out of the conversation until stronger proof is available.

For myself, I certainly allow for the possibility that it was media created myth that Mignini was initially applying religious overtones re Satanism to the case at hand. But their is reason to be suspicious. Whatever Satanism is, be it a specific set of rituals around Satan, or whether a loose association to Halloween and hobgoblins will qualify. Sheesh. Look at the level of conversation or thought! What is it about this case that makes a person even delve into such thought patterns...?

You are getting at the real point effectively here.

When the early tabloid frenzy was afire, Mignini let it do the heavy lifting for him. The PLE and prosecution leaked all sorts of stuff to whip up the frenzy. .. the blood soaked bathroom photo being one albeit that it wasn't blood.

Satanic rite theories, back then, only served to keep the frenzy lit.

Eventually cooler heads prevailed. When the frenzied onion was unpeeled, things like the Satanic rite theory just would not go away. Now Mignini needs to address it, as it stands outside a context of a media frenzy. He knows how it makes him look, and it still may be material in the Spezi and Kercher trials to come.

Grinder seems to assume that it is me keeping this issue alive. Good for him. But go get yourself an Italian speaker and 9 out of 10 will see that conference and his participation for what it is.

A whack job trying to close a barn door once the horse is gone, trying also to claim that he'd never said that barns contained horses, and then shooting himself in the foot by saying that one can never rule out that barns might house horses.

 

[davefoc]

Goose/gander. Pot/kettle.

Do you believe in Satan? I didn't see your answer.

I suppose this was a rhetorical question, but I am not even sure it goes to what Mignini said. As I understand it, Mignini is only quoted as saying that Satanic ritual motivations could be a murder motive, not that Satan needed to be considered as the possible murderer in some cases.

Do you eliminate God or faith as possible cause or motive a priori?

If I understand your point here, I agree with a bit. What Mignini said doesn't imply that he believes that Satan is the potential murderer, he's just saying that Satanic rituals can be a motivation in some murders. Still, how often is this the case in Italy? It is a bit strange that he now says he didn't propose something like that as a motive in the Kercher case while he's talking about the possibility of Satanic Rite related murders with a picture of Knox in the background.

Have you provided an Italian source for "Satanic Rite" or any source besides Kercher and Barbie?

ETA - would you accept his transcripts as proof that Mignini never claimed "Satanic Rite" if no such mention was there? I doubt it?

I don't believe that anybody is claiming that Mignini used the term, Satanic Rite, verbatim with regards to the Kercher murder. If they were, I think the direct quote would have been provided by now.

However, a lot of people seem to think he did. In particular Kercher and Nadeau did and they seem like pretty good sources for this kind of thing to me. And whether he used the term verbatim or not, he did use the term, "A sexual and, sacrificial rite", which is close enough that if this hadn't become something of an issue in this thread I wouldn't have thought twice about somebody characterizing that as meaning Satanic Rite. He also tried to tie Halloween into an explanation for the murder as well. All together, the evidence suggests to me that Mignini was probably leading the media meme about this being some sort of occult, sexual, violent motivated murder. But what Mignini leaked to the press and when he leaked it isn't knowable with precision. But I doubt that the Satanic Rite meme got going on its own.

 

[Grinder]

The condom guy is well known, has a wiki page. If Mach is him that would be Mach 4.

Whatever.

No one is accusing Satan of being involved with this crime. Besides Italy could never extradite. Satan is quite irrelevant as is most of your post. Please spot the mistake.

Do you believe in Satan? Simple yes/no.

Since you distrust me so, go find your own Italian speaker, preferably someone who's never heard of Mignini or Perugia. Mine provided a translation and came away thinking Mignini a complete whack job.

Please provide a source besides Kercher or Barbie. I haven't seen one yet.

 

[Bill Williams]

Whatever.



Do you believe in Satan? Simple yes/no.



Please provide a source besides Kercher or Barbie. I haven't seen one yet.

At the very least you know the proper usage of "whatever"!!!!