• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
What is the "first time in history" canard?
The argument; something not having happened before is evidence it is impossible to happen now. Typically ignoring any factors making said incident different or more probable than previously.

The classic example is 911, "never in history had a steel framed building collapsed from fire." This of course ignores a multitude of circumstances.
 
Churchill, De Gaulle didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings,
You are pretending that Churchill and De Gaulle didn't know about the gas chambers because they didn't use the word in their memoirs. Is that your claim?

"There is no doubt this is the most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe". Winston Churchill

Clayton? What "scientific machinery" is Churchill writing about?

You also seem unaware that De Gaulle actually went to Auschwitz to see the gas chambers, laid flowers in a silent ceremony and specifically issued a policy not to mention the gas chambers. Read it here.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...GwmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lP8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1702,4996950
 
"A lot" is a bit vague. You can have a lot who are lying and even more who are telling the truth. Can you be more precise?
What I would like to know is why is the media protecting Elie Wiesel when a look at the links I provided shows that he is dishonest? You want me to be more precise? What about the trials of Ernst Zundel? When holocaust survivors were put on the witness stand and questioned and cross examined like in a normal murder case their "eyewitness testimony" went to pieces.
Here are 2 more holocaust survivors with their "eyewitness testimony". Swiss cheese would have less holes. People like this are making money from telling falsehoods -
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-about-the-holocaust-comes-from-nazi-records/
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...survivor-who-escaped-from-Auschwitz-birkenau/
 
What I would like to know is why is the media protecting Elie Wiesel when a look at the links I provided shows that he is dishonest? You want me to be more precise? What about the trials of Ernst Zundel? When holocaust survivors were put on the witness stand and questioned and cross examined like in a normal murder case their "eyewitness testimony" went to pieces.
Here are 2 more holocaust survivors with their "eyewitness testimony". Swiss cheese would have less holes. People like this are making money from telling falsehoods -
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-about-the-holocaust-comes-from-nazi-records/
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...survivor-who-escaped-from-Auschwitz-birkenau/

You appear to have linked to denier blogs. Any real evidence that the Holocaust did not take place? I have never seen any.
 
One eyewitness statement might be evidence of something but one eyewitness statement alone is never going to be proof of anything.

Evidence does not equal proof.

I would like Sebastiananus to answer the questions and explain his conflicting views as to witness testimony.

You have noticed that "Hardly proof of anything" becomes "yet one more piece of evidence" when put together with all the evidence. So the reverse is also true, whereby one testimony cannot be dismissed completely, which is what the revisionist/deniers try and do.

Don't deniers issue meaningless challenges to show one proof of a gas chamber or name one person killed in a gas chamber?

They do and it is good to counter them with the same standards to see if they can live up to their own demands. They cannot.
 
What I would like to know is why is the media protecting Elie Wiesel when a look at the links I provided shows that he is dishonest? You want me to be more precise? What about the trials of Ernst Zundel? When holocaust survivors were put on the witness stand and questioned and cross examined like in a normal murder case their "eyewitness testimony" went to pieces.
Here are 2 more holocaust survivors with their "eyewitness testimony". Swiss cheese would have less holes. People like this are making money from telling falsehoods -
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-about-the-holocaust-comes-from-nazi-records/
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...survivor-who-escaped-from-Auschwitz-birkenau/

That still does nothing to make "a lot" less vague. You have a few who have been shown to be dubious or crumbled in a trial situation. What about the rest? Has any examination been made by the revisionist/deniers to see who is lying/mistaken/truthful? Is there a standard by which they determine lying/mistaken/truthful?

Or is it the case the revisionist/deniers are making the basic investigatory mistake of dismissing evidence which does not fit their theory gets dumped?
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Churchill, De Gaulle didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings,
You are pretending that Churchill and De Gaulle didn't know about the gas chambers because they didn't use the word in their memoirs. Is that your claim?

"There is no doubt this is the most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe". Winston Churchill

Clayton? What "scientific machinery" is Churchill writing about?

You also seem unaware that De Gaulle actually went to Auschwitz to see the gas chambers, laid flowers in a silent ceremony and specifically issued a policy not to mention the gas chambers. Read it here.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...GwmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lP8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1702,4996950
I would very much like CM to respond to this question before he moves on to others.
 
What I would like to know is why is the media protecting Elie Wiesel when a look at the links I provided shows that he is dishonest? You want me to be more precise? What about the trials of Ernst Zundel? When holocaust survivors were put on the witness stand and questioned and cross examined like in a normal murder case their "eyewitness testimony" went to pieces.
Here are 2 more holocaust survivors with their "eyewitness testimony". Swiss cheese would have less holes. People like this are making money from telling falsehoods -
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-about-the-holocaust-comes-from-nazi-records/
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...survivor-who-escaped-from-Auschwitz-birkenau/

The fact that there are individuals attempting to portray themselves as holocaust survivors have questionable stories doesn't indicate that the holocaust itself did not take place.
 
What I would like to know is why is the media protecting Elie Wiesel when a look at the links I provided shows that he is dishonest? You want me to be more precise? What about the trials of Ernst Zundel? When holocaust survivors were put on the witness stand and questioned and cross examined like in a normal murder case their "eyewitness testimony" went to pieces.
Here are 2 more holocaust survivors with their "eyewitness testimony". Swiss cheese would have less holes. People like this are making money from telling falsehoods -
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...-about-the-holocaust-comes-from-nazi-records/
http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...survivor-who-escaped-from-Auschwitz-birkenau/
This guy exists, does that disprove the Vietnam War?

 
The argument; something not having happened before is evidence it is impossible to happen now. Typically ignoring any factors making said incident different or more probable than previously.

The classic example is 911, "never in history had a steel framed building collapsed from fire." This of course ignores a multitude of circumstances.


That's a new one on me. It seems pretty weak because if that line of reasoning was ever valid, it would mean that innovation and progress are impossible. There's a first time for everything.

I'm asking if there are mass murder events in history that approximate some of the claims at the death camps not because I believe that nothing happens unless it has happened before. I'm asking that question because some of the death camp claims are so far beyond anything which has happened before that they conflict with that which is reasonably possible. If there are other mass graves that have achieved a density of bodies on the scale of the density of bodies found at the death camps, then the problem is that I have underestimated the limits of human ingenuity. But just because that density has never been achieved anywhere else does not (in and of itself) mean that it is impossible.
 
That's a new one on me. It seems pretty weak because if that line of reasoning was ever valid, it would mean that innovation and progress are impossible. There's a first time for everything.

I'm asking if there are mass murder events in history that approximate some of the claims at the death camps not because I believe that nothing happens unless it has happened before. I'm asking that question because some of the death camp claims are so far beyond anything which has happened before that they conflict with that which is reasonably possible. If there are other mass graves that have achieved a density of bodies on the scale of the density of bodies found at the death camps, then the problem is that I have underestimated the limits of human ingenuity. But just because that density has never been achieved anywhere else does not (in and of itself) mean that it is impossible.
You're still implying that it's somehow less likely if it's unprecedented. I'm not seeing that much of a distinction between "impossible" and "improbable", functionally.

The question you should be concerning yourself with is "did it happen this time?" Precedent is a secondary concern.
 
.........
Elie Wiesel didn't write about "gassings or gas chambers" for the same reason Eisenhower, De Gaulle or Churchill didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings, there were no gassings or gas chambers.

Churchill did not write about Bomber Command. Therefore there was no bombing of Germany during the War. Does that help you see how flawed your argument is?

To continue with that theme, with regards to bombing the most the revisionist/deniers can do is dispute the number of bombs dropped against the official figures and the numbers killed. Maybe the British have under estimated the bombs dropped and citizens killed, particularly at Dresden to make them feel better about themselves. But that in no way means Dresden did not happen, in the same way there is no way the Holocaust did not happen.
 
You appear to have linked to denier blogs. Any real evidence that the Holocaust did not take place? I have never seen any.


To play Devil's advocate, do you not see the folly in this reasoning? If I were a Holocaust denier who refused to accept any books about the Holocaust as constituting "real evidence," would you believe that I could come to a fair and impartial conclusion that the Holocaust never happened?

If you read Holocaust denier material you can find problems with the information they present. But without reading them how do you even know that?
 
I would like Sebastiananus to answer the questions and explain his conflicting views as to witness testimony.


I don't think his views as to witness testimony are in conflict. I explained what I thought he meant but he is in a better position to explain his comment.


You have noticed that "Hardly proof of anything" becomes "yet one more piece of evidence" when put together with all the evidence. So the reverse is also true, whereby one testimony cannot be dismissed completely, which is what the revisionist/deniers try and do.


One piece of evidence is hardly proof of something. One piece of evidence with another piece of evidence with another piece of evidence (and so on) might add up to proof of something. I don't know how else to explain that concept more clearly.



They do and it is good to counter them with the same standards to see if they can live up to their own demands. They cannot.


The use of a logical fallacy or drawing an erroneous conclusion by one side of a debate does not make it legitimate for the other side to do the same. Doing so does nothing to elevate the conversation.
 
I don't think his views as to witness testimony are in conflict. I explained what I thought he meant but he is in a better position to explain his comment.





One piece of evidence is hardly proof of something. One piece of evidence with another piece of evidence with another piece of evidence (and so on) might add up to proof of something. I don't know how else to explain that concept more clearly.

It depends on the evidence as to whether or not it is proof of something and how strong as evidence it is. To dismiss one piece of evidence as hardly proof of anything fails to take that into account






The use of a logical fallacy or drawing an erroneous conclusion by one side of a debate does not make it legitimate for the other side to do the same. Doing so does nothing to elevate the conversation.

I disagree. Showing the other side how ridiculous their argument is furthers their debunking.
 
You are pretending that Churchill and De Gaulle didn't know about the gas chambers because they didn't use the word in their memoirs. Is that your claim?

"There is no doubt this is the most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe". Winston Churchill

Clayton? What "scientific machinery" is Churchill writing about?

You also seem unaware that De Gaulle actually went to Auschwitz to see the gas chambers, laid flowers in a silent ceremony and specifically issued a policy not to mention the gas chambers. Read it here.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...GwmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lP8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1702,4996950

Thought turning and not mentioning the Germans is proof of gassing and gas chambers? What a master stroke of logic.

Nice thought fabrication.

Wiesel never mentioned it early on because it was a lie that hadn't become the bodyguard of Zionism yet. Wiesel even chose to hightail it with the Germans to avoid the Russians even after they, the Germans, allegedly gassed 3 million Jewish children, women and men.

The three, Churchill, De Gaulle and Eisenhower, didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings because, knowing they were fabricated lies, they didn't want their families humiliated and their legacy besmirched for eternity.
 
A few points:

1. Captain Howdy has correctly explained what I was saying about eyewitness testimony. There is no contradiction.

2. On the "first time in history" argument - I would say that in a interesting way both this argument and its opposite are fallacies. Obviously you cannot negate all events on the basis of their being umprecedented; an argument like "no-one had gone to the moon before Apollo 11, therefore it didn't happen" is clearly wrong. On the other hand, the argument "no person has ever been able to jump to the moon or even come close, therefore your claim that you jumped to the moon is false" seems pretty strong to me. The important thing is that there has been dramatic progress in rocket technology, but not in jumping, at least not to the point that would put the moon in reach. The point of all this is that whether the fact that a claimed event is unprecedented is an valid argument against it depends entirely on the particulars of the case in question. In the case of mass burial or cremation, I think that the argument that the claimed holocaust events are unreal because they are totally out of line with the historical experience of mass burial and cremation is quite a good one, because there is not any case of technological progress that would make the tasks of cremation and burial easier for the Germans than for everyone else before and after. Of course one must take the particulars of the case into account, but an argument based on comparison with well documented historical examples is fundamentally sound, and it is clear that no-one on this board is able to refute these arguments.

3. MadMurx indicated that the largest grave at Katyn held 3,000 bodies, and that the total numbers of bodies in the 7 main Katyn graves was 6,000. I think that this is incorrect. As I understand it, what happened was this: after the Katyn graves were found there was a preliminary excavation, which showed that they did indeed hold Polish officers. On the basis of this preliminary investigation the estimate of 3,000 for the largest grave was made (12 layers of 250 bodies). This number was only an estimate, based on excavating an area along one side of the grave. This number was then announced in Goebbels' initial broadcast about Katyn on April 13, 1943. At that time the Germans assumed that they had found the bodies of the entire group of Polish officers held (and killed) by the Russians - some 12,000 bodies; this number too was announced in broadcasts to the public. As the excavation proceeded, however, it emerged that the site actually held fewer bodies than anticipated - a little over 4,000 in total. As it turns out, Katyn was only one of three main sites used to bury the Polish officers, so that while the Germans had anticipated 12,000 bodies, they found only 4,000. The higher number continued to be used in publicity, because issuing an official correction on a point like that doesn't fit in very well with the dictates of war propaganda (this would have been true on either side of the war). However, the official report gave the correct figure of just over 4,000 bodies.

In summary: 3,000 bodies in the largest Katyn grave was a preliminary estimate, not an actual figure. I don't know where the number 6,000 total bodies in the 7 main graves comes from, and I am not aware of any evidence to support it; to my knowledge the correct figure is a little over 4,000.

4. Concerning the challenges to supply the name of someone who was gassed / resettled via the Reinhardt camps (and prove this with definite documentation): I agree that these prove nothing in either direction. In fact, for holocaust believers to be reduced to making a parallel unanswerable challenge is something of a victory for revisionism, because it puts both orthodoxy and revisionism on an equal footing, whereas orthodoxy claims that there is not even a debate.

The case in which the "give the name of a gassed Jew" challenge is valid is when facing the claim (which is rather common, but disclaimed by real experts) that the extermination of the Jews in gas chambers is well documented, even "the best documented event in history", or that "we know they were gassed from the Nazi's own records." When faced with those who make such claims, then this challenge is quite valid. However, when dealing with historians who concede the lack of documentary evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc. the "give me a name" challenge is meaningless. The function of the challenge, therefore, is to force holocaust historians to publicly admit a fact (the lack of documentary evidence for homicidal gassings) that they are well aware of but generally prefer to brush under the carpet.
 
You are pretending that Churchill and De Gaulle didn't know about the gas chambers because they didn't use the word in their memoirs. Is that your claim?

"There is no doubt this is the most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe". Winston Churchill

Clayton? What "scientific machinery" is Churchill writing about?

You also seem unaware that De Gaulle actually went to Auschwitz to see the gas chambers, laid flowers in a silent ceremony and specifically issued a policy not to mention the gas chambers. Read it here.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...GwmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lP8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1702,4996950

The Churchill quote is a written response in July 1944 to reading the 1944 account of Auschwitz escapees. If he later still believed that there was "no doubt that this is probably [note the qualification creeping in as he writes] the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world", why would it be excluded from his History of the War? The basis for his belief in 1944 (i.e. the report of Urba and another) was addressed in the Zundel trial in 1985.

On the De Gaulle article from 1967, the opening reference to the 4 million who died in the gas chambers (this being the Soviet position at the time) is the American newspaper's and so not strictly decisive for De Gaulle's position in 1967 or to his War Memoirs, which appeared in three volumes from 1954-59. There is no reference in the article to a general policy of not mentioning the gas chambers, but to a decision not to mention them in a specific speech in Poland during the visit, supposedly for diplomatic reasons. The point remains, De Gaulle did not mention the gas chambers and an official explanation for this is then reported by the newspaper. Even if we suppose that De Gaulle endorsed the gas chamber story in 1967, the fact still remains that he did not do so in his memoirs written from personal experience.
 
You appear to have linked to denier blogs. Any real evidence that the Holocaust did not take place? I have never seen any.

This raises an interesting question, much the same as that of "reasonable" and "unreasonable" doubt raised earlier. As pretty much a "denier", what turned my mind after 30 years from asking how to asking whether was that the most significant evidence I was shown from authoritative text books (e.g. Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews) invariably turned out to be something other than what it was presented. I link to some of this evidence below. In addition, one authority in particular, Jan van Pelt, spoke to camera in the 1990s and described a document as "very direct evidence of extermination". This was a BBC documentary on the content of Soviet archives and the document was shown on screen. It turned out to be merely a reference to "Sonderbehandlung" (special treatment, which far from being "very direct" depends on the "coded language" method of interpreting German wartime documents. This sort of thing I think justifies me in looking more closely at the remaining evidence, on the principle "Once bitten, twice shy." Ever since, I have been shocked at what I found.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom