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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Why do you keep trying this nonsense? Jews could be forced at gunpoint to go to the camps, and there was significant armed Jewish resistance.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005213
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005441
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/resisttoc.html

You've been told this before. Several times, IIRC.


Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
If a million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in one year and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

If TWO million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in TWO years and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

1990 Population of Dallas 1006877

3 million exterminated/gassed in three years is a flat out lie. The Holocaust myth is nothing more than a hoax to enable the world's Zionists to further their agendas.

The Holocaust is both the foundation and the Achilles heel of Zionist control of gentiles. If the Holocaust Lie fails, then so does Zionist control.


Try answering the questions.

Why would 2 million people go to what they "knew" to be "killing centers" after 1 million of their family/friends/co-religionists had been killed there?
 
Well, il I remember well, they had no other choice than going where they were ordered to go or be killed where they were. So they went.



Yes. Mainly because they were told they would be relocated to a better place. The lies that have been told by the nazis to the jews for getting them to move are well documented.



The Jews willingly went where the Nazis told them to go because they were promised a better life or the Jews were threatened with death if they didn't go where the Nazis told them to go. It's one or the other but not both.
 
Why would 2 million people go to what they "knew" to be "killing centers" after 1 million of their family/friends/co-religionists had been killed there?

Because they were mostly traumatized people unaware of what was really happening aside from rumors forced to go at gunpoint, grasping at the hope of continued survival if they did what the Nazis told them instead of the surety of a bullet if they didn't.
 
You're barking under the wrong trees. The victims are ghosts. You'll be running around circles forever trying to pin down ghosts.

You need to agree that the fabricated numbers are valid and analyze the work, transportation, effort, oversight, participation, visibility, time frames, fuel, equipment required by/involved with the alleged ongoing genocide/gassings.

You then need analyze the work, transportation, effort, oversight, participation, visibility, time frames, fuel, equipment involved with the activities going on apart from the alleged ongoing genocide/gassings.

As a side note I think you'll find the "camps" were minimum security and the inmates had pretty much the run of the camp.

Then there was always the annual winter weather monkey wrench, three years worth.


Do you have any information that you could share that would support your hypothesis that moving millions of people from one part of Europe to another part of Europe over a period of five years or so is dubious? Sebastanius has analyzed specific death camp claims and provided us with indisputable facts that raise legitimate concerns about the believability of those specific death camp claims. The only real challenge to Sebastianus has been an appeal to gullibility. Do you have any similar arguments that would raise doubt about the entire process of massive population movements? The United States moved the entire Japanese American population from the west coast in a very short time frame. Nazi Germany's attempt to reorder Europe's populations within a framework of its vision of racial and ethnic purity is well documented. These were huge demographics shifts that were not easy but they were doable. Jeez whiz, D-Day alone was a logistical nightmare but it happened!!!
 
The Jews willingly went where the Nazis told them to go because they were promised a better life or the Jews were threatened with death if they didn't go where the Nazis told them to go. It's one or the other but not both.


How on earth are those things mutually exclusive?

What makes it impossible for someone to attempt to entice you into something while also threatening you for not doing it? There's even a name for it - the carrot and the stick.
 
Do you have any information that you could share that would support your hypothesis that moving millions of people from one part of Europe to another part of Europe over a period of five years or so is dubious? Sebastanius has analyzed specific death camp claims and provided us with indisputable facts that raise legitimate concerns about the believability of those specific death camp claims. The only real challenge to Sebastianus has been an appeal to gullibility. Do you have any similar arguments that would raise doubt about the entire process of massive population movements? The United States moved the entire Japanese American population from the west coast in a very short time frame. Nazi Germany's attempt to reorder Europe's populations within a framework of its vision of racial and ethnic purity is well documented. These were huge demographics shifts that were not easy but they were doable. Jeez whiz, D-Day alone was a logistical nightmare but it happened!!!

First of all it would have had to have been 3 million in 3 years to match the fabrication that the 3 million gassing victims never actually were recorded/registered into the camp(s). With no staging areas to facilitate delays to boot.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

110,000 Japanese vs 3,000,000

Jee whiz D-day? Really?
 
How on earth are those things mutually exclusive?

What makes it impossible for someone to attempt to entice you into something while also threatening you for not doing it? There's even a name for it - the carrot and the stick.


Once you threaten to kill somebody if they don't do what you say, no other means of persuasion will be effective. You will do what he wants because you fear death or you won't do what he wants because you don't fear death. You won't do what he wants because you believe his promises of a better place to live.
 
First of all it would have had to have been 3 million in 3 years to match the fabrication that the 3 million gassing victims never actually were recorded/registered into the camp(s). With no staging areas to facilitate delays to boot.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

110,000 Japanese vs 3,000,000

Jee whiz D-day? Really?

Yes. Really. How many people moved from England to France on just that one day?
 
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post



Try answering the questions.

Why would 2 million people go to what they "knew" to be "killing centers" after 1 million of their family/friends/co-religionists had been killed there?

Because not all camps were killing centres and many knew that meant they still had a chance of surviving if they went, compared to being shot on the spot if they refused to go.
 
First of all it would have had to have been 3 million in 3 years to match the fabrication that the 3 million gassing victims never actually were recorded/registered into the camp(s). With no staging areas to facilitate delays to boot.

The staging areas were the ghettos.
 
Once you threaten to kill somebody if they don't do what you say, no other means of persuasion will be effective. You will do what he wants because you fear death or you won't do what he wants because you don't fear death. You won't do what he wants because you believe his promises of a better place to live.


Absolute nonsense. I defy you to find any evidence that this is how human motivation works.
 
Then there is the witness testimony.
The trouble is a lot of the alleged witnesses are pathological liars. "Most of the memoirs and reports (of Holocaust survivors) are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self inflation, dilettante philosophising, would be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks" Samuel Gringauz Jewish Social Studies (New York) 1950 Vol.12 p65 Take the case of Viktor Frankl for instance - http://codoh.com/library/document/2995
Elie Wiesel takes the cake of course - www.eliewieseltattoo.com www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesel.shtml
Simon Wiesenthal liked to tell fibs as well - www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml
When it comes to the number of holocaust victims it is possible that the official historians have been double dipping - http://codoh.com/library/document/85
 
Once you threaten to kill somebody if they don't do what you say, no other means of persuasion will be effective. You will do what he wants because you fear death or you won't do what he wants because you don't fear death. You won't do what he wants because you believe his promises of a better place to live.

Well, the Nazis "threatened" to kill fugitive Polish Jews in mid-October 1941 by issuing an ordinance stating that Jews found wandering outside areas designated for them would be executed. Over the next nine months this threat was carried out on numerous occasions, with e.g. publicised notices in the Warsaw ghetto informing the residents that batches of however many Jews breaching the ordinance had been shot. Meanwhile, the German police guards took potshots at ghetto inmates who were trying to sneak out, as well as some who were simply going about their business, and kept score in their battalion mess hall with hash marks over the entrance.

This did not stop smuggling, nor did it stop tens of thousands (one calculation extrapolated a figure of 28,000 from incomplete sources) of Warsaw Jews deciding they stood a better chance of survival if they fled to the 'Aryan' side in July/August 1942, when the big action started.

The big action was carried out by among others, Jewish ghetto policemen who had been threatened with execution if they failed to fulfill their quotas per day of rounded-up fellow Jews; along with German police and a Latvian collaborator battalion. It lasted nearly 2 months; tactics varied. At one stage the Germans offered bread and jam for volunteers who would turn up. Then they switched to combing through cordoned-off streets. 5,000 Jews were shot dead in the whole operation.

Long before the end of the operation, news had filtered back to quite a few in the ghetto - certainly to all the activists of the countless political parties present in the ghetto - that the deportees were being murdered at Treblinka. But by that time, the whole operation was being conducted by force.

Once on the trains, a number of the Jews of Warsaw attempted to break out of the trains, despite knowing that this would provoke firing from the police guards accompanying each transport, and that once they were on the run, they were at risk of summary execution. Some succeeded, many were killed.

Not all attempted this, because of the fear of summary execution if they went on the run, and fear of being shot jumping off the train, and because many were really in no physical condition to try and survive in hiding, or they did not want to be separated from their families, or felt that it was a fool's errand for an obviously traditional religious Jew with accented Polish with no money to try and survive in hiding.

Most of all, despite the coercion they had experienced since 1939 and in harsher and harsher form since October 1941 and then during the big operation, they did not necessarily know what would happen to them for sure.

On arrival at Treblinka, the trains were unloaded in sections, and experienced various greetings. Some detrained virtually directly into machine-gun fire because the Ukrainian guards had lost control of the latest batch who had panicked and stampeded. Towards the end of August 1942, the camp degenerated into complete chaos, and transports had to be suspended while vast numbers of bodies were cleared away from the camp forecourt area.

However, other transports were unloaded to be greeted with a modicum of politeness, along with the sight of armed guards located at various spots around the transport. The SS then told the deportees a bunch of lies about how they were going to be resettled and begin a nice new life somewhere else, therefore they needed to be deloused and showered.

The same routine was practiced at other camps: armed guards off to one side, barbed wire enclosures visible, and deceiving exhortations to go this way or that way and then to undress for a 'shower' or delousing, with promises of hot coffee/soup and happy new lives somewhere else.

It's utterly impossible to say whether coercion or deception played a bigger role in such a situation; there was implicit coercion without overt death threats, coupled with overt deception. That is, unless someone panicked, at which point the bullets would start flying, and there would be no more talk of fairy-tales about 'resettlement' to the Ukraine.

Warsaw was one of the extreme cases; the typical Jewish experience in western and central Europe was to be arrested (i.e coerced), interned in a holding camp (i.e. coerced) then after a period of time be scheduled onto a deportation train (i.e. coerced) then packed off without any overt violence, because there was clearly no escaping such a situation, and no weapons available for resistance. Nor any certain knowledge of what would transpire at the other end. Drancy inmates nicknamed the unknown, never-named destination 'Pitchipoi', which was in fact, Auschwitz. It was accepted that deportation was a bad thing, which is why Jews tried to avoid it wherever possible, just as non-Jews often avoided conscription to work in Germany.

After all the coercion of getting them onto the (guarded) trains, Jews from western and central Europe arrived at Auschwitz to find more guards, more barbed wire and more implicit coercion, along with shouting, barking dogs and blows from truncheons delivered to those who were a bit slow. Then some deception and lies, backed up with yet more coercion (i.e. armed guards). The lies were aimed as much at those being selected for work and separated from their relatives as at the victims selected to die.

It generally took 1-2 days after registration for newly arrived Jewish Auschwitz inmates to fully accept that their relatives had been killed, although they usually had an opportunity to ask an 'old hand' what might have happened to their relatives shortly after arriving in the quarantine barracks. It was evidently a very common reaction to disbelieve at first the news that their relatives had gone up the chimney. People cling on to false hopes in such situations.
 
Clayton first the Ghettoes in Poland in which people were crammed together and denied access to above starvation food, then after Operation Barbarossa began the einzatsgruppen mass murdering jewish populations in Russia, then came the camps, the labour camps where people were worked to death on below starvation level rations then the death camps started operating as well.

As a piece all these measures wiped out millions of innocent people and all documented by the Nazis themselves.
 
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post



Try answering the questions.

Why would 2 million people go to what they "knew" to be "killing centers" after 1 million of their family/friends/co-religionists had been killed there?

I did. Because being forced at gunpoint to an uncertain death is often going to be considered better than dying right away, and many Jews did in fact resist, especially after the fact that the camps were for killing jews became more widely known. And as ANTPogo pointed out, many Jews still didn't know or believe they were death camps.

Didn't you once assert that Jews would be driven into heedless rage/cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder when they learned that Jewish infants and children were being killed? Yet you seem to studiously ignore people pointing out that the Jews fought back in order to claim the Official Story is fishy because the Jews didn't fight back.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8826932#post8826932
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8336709#post8336709
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8336805#post8336805
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8336879#post8336879
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7973269#post7973269
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8091635#post8091635

And the few times you have acknowledged it, you claimed they didn't resist enough, based on your arbitrary and standards. You can't even decide whether Jews would try to rip apart Nazis with their bare hands, or plot and plan and scheme.
 
Concerning reception square at Treblinka I believe Jankiel Wiernik describes precisely the disorientating chaos that greeted him as he alighted August 24th 1942.

The camp yard was littered with corpses, some still in their clothes and some naked. Their faces distorted with fright and awe, black and swollen, the eyes wide open, with protruding tongues, skulls crushed, bodies mangled. And, blood everywhere, the blood of our children, of our brothers and sisters, our fathers and mothers.

SS-Unterscharführer Willi Mentz who was stationed at Treblinka described this shambles too.

When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl. He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr. Eberl was no longer there...

Replaced by Franz Stangl.
 
Jewish people from throughout Europe were sent to ghettos before they went to the camps and then to the killing centers?

Actually they were sent from the ghettos straighforward to the extermination camps. For instance most of the jews of the Warsaw ghetto were sent to Treblinka extermination camp. And there was no intermediate concentration camp. It was "ghetto --> Warsaw train station --> Treblinka --> gas chamber".
 
Absolute nonsense. I defy you to find any evidence that this is how human motivation works.


I defy you to explain what type of evidence you would accept. In the meantime, pretend you are walking down the street and a man approaches you and asks if you have any spare change. He's tells you he's out of work and needs some gas money to get to a job interview. You politely refuse so he pulls out a pistol points it at your head and yells at you to give him some spare change or he'll kill you. If you then give him your spare change is it because upon reflection he convinced you that helping a fellow human being in need is the right thing to do or is it because you fear for your life?

What if he approaches you with the pistol pointed at your face and demands your money. If you refuse, could he change your mind by putting the pistol in his pocket and telling you some sob story about needing gas money to get to a job interview?

No salesman training manual is going to tell you that you don't start your sales pitch by threatening to kill your potential customer. That's because most people get that without being told.
 
The trouble is a lot of the alleged witnesses are pathological liars. "Most of the memoirs and reports (of Holocaust survivors) are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self inflation, dilettante philosophising, would be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks" Samuel Gringauz Jewish Social Studies (New York) 1950 Vol.12 p65 Take the case of Viktor Frankl for instance - http://codoh.com/library/document/2995
Elie Wiesel takes the cake of course - www.eliewieseltattoo.com www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesel.shtml
Simon Wiesenthal liked to tell fibs as well - www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesenthal.shtml
When it comes to the number of holocaust victims it is possible that the official historians have been double dipping - http://codoh.com/library/document/85

"A lot" is a bit vague. You can have a lot who are lying and even more who are telling the truth. Can you be more precise?

Then to what extent has PTSD and its known effects have been taken into account when assessing if a witness is lying or not?

http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/1/71.full.pdf

Finally, are those who made mistakes (for example thinking there were diesel engines used for gassings) counted in with the liars?
 
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