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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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OK. You've all convinced me I was wrong. Death threats are just one more way of winning friends and influencing people, no different than any other method of persuasion. A credible death threat isn't going to permanently alter whatever relationship two people or group of people have with one another. I don't know what I was thinking.[...]
Using sarcasm to avoid admitting you were wrong and to keep strawmanning your opponents' arguments isn't very productive. It's also rather transparent, especially when you're clearly trying to get the last word and change the subject.

No one is asserting that being threatened with death will not change human relations. We're arguing that a carrot and stick approach has consistently proven itself to be more effective than just the stick alone. Moreover, you were arguing that death threats would have very specific reactions, not that it would just change the way people related to each other. You're trying to backpedal.
 
PS:
Now, back to death camp mass graves. I haven't found any information about a mass grave that has packed its bodies as densely as the death camps did. There isn't anything that comes close. Has anybody read about an example of a non-Holocaust mass grave that has achieved the body density of the Holocaust mass graves?

Don't try the "first time in history" canard. Just don't. Because it can be applied equally to any conspiracy theory, which are often even more unlikely than the official stories they're questioning.

(Mods, can you merge this with my previous post?)
 
How have you determined his statement is "hardly proof of anything"?


One eyewitness statement might be evidence of something but one eyewitness statement alone is never going to be proof of anything.



There is a conflict which you need to reconcile. "Hardly proof of anything" is now "yet one more piece of evidence". Please explain your thinking.


Evidence does not equal proof.




OK, please name one Jew re-settled in the East and left by the Nazis in their new settlement. Please name one of the settlements.


Don't deniers issue meaningless challenges to show one proof of a gas chamber or name one person killed in a gas chamber?
 
I'm now thinking that Kriwoy Rog is the German name for Kryvyi Rih.

From a purely linguistic POV, I would agree and I wonder why Кривий Ріг is transliterated as Kryvyi Rih? The Cyrillic letter "г" sounds like the English letter "g" so I'd have thought it would be "Rig" or "Reeg" rather than "Rih?"
 
From a purely linguistic POV, I would agree and I wonder why Кривий Ріг is transliterated as Kryvyi Rih? The Cyrillic letter "г" sounds like the English letter "g" so I'd have thought it would be "Rig" or "Reeg" rather than "Rih?"
I'm guessing it is based on Russian pronunciation rather than Russian spelling. The Russian "Г" sounds more like "g" in goat then "g" in geranium and can sound like a "h" at the end of some spoken words.

My Russian pronunciation comes from the children of Harbin white Russians (ex engineers) living in Australia and is a "bit out of date" and contaminated by Australian.


"Maaaaaate......"
"дpуyyyyyyyyг"
(droog)
 
Captain Howdy verified evidence such as the mountain of confirmed and verfied evidence that exists for the Holocaust is proof.
 
OK. You've all convinced me I was wrong. Death threats are just one more way of winning friends and influencing people, no different than any other method of persuasion. A credible death threat isn't going to permanently alter whatever relationship two people or group of people have with one another. I don't know what I was thinking.

Now, back to death camp mass graves. I haven't found any information about a mass grave that has packed its bodies as densely as the death camps did. There isn't anything that comes close. Has anybody read about an example of a non-Holocaust mass grave that has achieved the body density of the Holocaust mass graves?

There's a sick old joke I won't quote here, but if you don't take into account the physical condition of the bodies being buried (emaciated v well fed) any estimation made on body density is suspect.

You also need to account for the fact that some burial sites aren't simply dug, filled and covered over.

A burial site that had bodies thrown in at different periods of time allowing the earlier bodies to go into decay before the site was covered can account for higher body counts per site.
 
I'm now thinking that Kriwoy Rog is the German name for Kryvyi Rih. I didn't find any information on a "August Weilemann" anywhere. However I did find a newsreel from The German Weekly Review called "Die Deutsche Wochenschau - 1941 - Kriwoy Rog und Reval". In this newsreel, at 3 minutes, is footage of a large number of captured Russian POWs at this location in 1941. However Sebastianus claims "August Weilemann" said he was there in 1942.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBCe7h4jeMw

Sebastianus needs to supply a citation for his claim to get to the bottom of this story.

It appears that beginning in late 1941 thousands of jews from around "Kriwoj Rog", as the germans normally called Kryvyi Rih, were murdered by german and ukrainian police units at mines and natural pits nearby. This included hundreds of jewish prisoners of war who had been separated in a nearby POW camp (800 of them together with 2500 civilians were killed in one shooting, according to some sources). A commander of a local german reconnaissance unit who witnessed a shooting in October 1941, one "Alfred T.", testified to this after the war. You can find excerpts from his testimony and quotes from another witness in german on the pages numbered 3 and 4 of this document (don't have time to translate them at the moment).
 
How did the Germans get Jewish people to perform meaningful labor for about three years when they were exterminating 3 million Jewish people during the same time frame less than a football away from their living quarters?


If your revisionism doesn't include the slaughter of 11 million people because of their ethnic, religious, social, and/or political backgrounds, then you're a holocaust denier.


11 million makes you an egregious Holocaust fabricator.
 
Clayton the inmates were taken at gun point and forced to work until they died in the labour camps, or marched to a pit and gunned down by the Einzatz gruppen, or sent to death camps what part of the multiple ways the Nazis used to murder innocents do you not understand?
 
How did the Germans get Jewish people to perform meaningful labor for about three years when they were exterminating 3 million Jewish people during the same time frame less than a football away from their living quarters?

"You will do the following tasks if you wish for yourself and your family to get any food."

"You will do the following tasks, or you will be killed immediately, do them well and you get to live."



11 million makes you an egregious Holocaust fabricator.

Hardly, 11 million what you get when you include the Soviet PWs, Romani, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah Witnesses, Slovenes and Poles.
 
http://nazigassings.com/GoWest.html



Although many hundreds of thousands of Jews were supposedly gassed there during this time, Wiesel makes no mention of gassings or gas chambers anywhere in his book, as Jürgen Graf and Robert Faurisson have pointed out to us.

But he's talking here about running away with the Nazis—and not ‘Nazis’ who were mere rank and file party members but supposedly the worst of the worst. He's talking here about running away with the same ‘Nazis’ and SS who had supposedly carried out the greatest imaginable mass murders of Jews and others in the entire history of the universe. He's talking about running away with the people who supposedly did the actual killings of thousands daily for several years. But, according to his own words he would probably have gone with them nonetheless, except that he was not feeling good that day; he was feeling weak. The "fear" that he overcame was clearly fear of the Russians and not the ‘Nazis;' there is no mention of fear of what the 'Nazis' and SS might do when the evacuees entered the forest or sometime later.

The choices that were made here in January 1945 are enormously important. In the entire history of Jewish suffering at the hands of gentiles what moment in time could possibly be more dramatic than this precious moment when Jews could choose between, on the one hand, liberation by the Soviets with the chance to tell the whole world about the evil 'Nazis' and to help bring about their defeat and the other choice of going with the 'Nazi' mass murderers and to continue working for them and to help preserve their evil regime. In the vast majority of cases, they chose to go with the 'Nazis'.


Signed and delivered.

Elie Wiesel didn't write about "gassings or gas chambers" for the same reason Eisenhower, De Gaulle or Churchill didn't mention gassings or gas chambers in their writings, there were no gassings or gas chambers.
 
You made this up. Here is the actual report from the Ramin Grob Glumina Exhumation by the State Commission on Missing Persons.(1998)

http://osaarchivum.org/files/holdings/386-2-2/386-2-2-4-4.pdf


Thanks for finding this report. The existence of reports such as this for mass graves considerably smaller than the death camp mass graves is curious.

What part of Sebastianus' facts regarding this mass grave do you dispute? He said the length was 51 meters while the report says 50. But the width and the number of bodies correlate. I didn't get a firm sense of the actual depth of the mass graves. Sebastianus probably got the 2 meter depth from the core sample depth that was reported. I think that would be a minimum depth. If the depth was greater it would be the density of the mass grave would be reduced even further.
 
How did the Germans get Jewish people to perform meaningful labor for about three years when they were exterminating 3 million Jewish people during the same time frame less than a football away from their living quarters?

Mostly by threatening them with the prospect of being one of those 3 million unless they did what they were told. It wasn't always successful, but it was unfortunately successful enough.

11 million makes you an egregious Holocaust fabricator.

Not really, no.
 
PS:

Don't try the "first time in history" canard. Just don't. Because it can be applied equally to any conspiracy theory, which are often even more unlikely than the official stories they're questioning.

(Mods, can you merge this with my previous post?)

What is the "first time in history" canard?
 
I have done the calculations and it appears to me that the bodies in these mass graves occupy more than .07 cubic meters per body. Are there any mass graves statistics that Sebastianus won't tell us about that are closer to the density of bodies in the death camp mass graves?

According to the International investigation of the Katyn mass graves the first and largest mass grave had 512.5 cubic meters (8x28x2.5). It contained 3000 dead bodies (12 layers with 250 dead bodies each).

The 6 other graves had sizes 20x5 m, 3.5x6m, 3.5x6m, 3x4.5m, 4mx12m, 3.5x9m. The depth of the graves were 1.85 to 3.3 m, average: 2.3m.

The report gives a total surface of 478 square meters with average depth of 2.3 m. Those 1099 cubic meters contained 6000 dead bodies.

Because the Germans and the commission only were able to recover 4134 dead bodies the number is estimated from the counted dead bodies in grave No.1.

That would give 0.18 cubic meters per dead body.

http://www.katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=831&page=2
 
Who and what rank and unit does August Weilemann belong to?
In what manner of British captivity was he held?
Where is the citation for this man and his direct quotes?

He was an Unteroffizier, but really, what difference do those details make? The statement hasn't been published, nor has it been cited in the literature as far as I am aware. Perhaps it will be at some point, in a revisionist publication. As I indicated, he said that "In the camp there was a special section for Jews of all countries, mainly from Poland; men, women, children, and babies" and that these Jews were maltreated and even killed. As others seem to have ascertained, Kriwoy Rog is a long way east of Poland; on the orthodox account there should not have been any transports of such Jews from Poland to Kriwoy Rog.

As for the source, I could give an archival reference, but why I should bother to pass on a piece of original research, however insignificant, when Nick Terry makes a point of refusing to share documents that he says he has on his hard drive, and others are mainly interested in calling me names and ignoring or misrepresenting my arguments? I would only be persuaded to share the reference if offered digital copies of documents which I deem to be of sufficient value, or if someone offers an adequate rebuttal to my arguments concerning cremation. Otherwise, you'll have to wait until the statement is cited in a publication.
 
You have made some very provocative points. The Balkan grave information is interesting. I was seeking out information about the density of bodies in other mass graves and have had trouble finding all three dimensions and the number of bodies for a single grave. I can find surface area and number of bodies but not the depth. Thank you for providing this information but what is the source?

Sources are listed here:
http://holocausthistorychannel.word...ce-part-8-data-on-mass-graves-in-the-balkans/
 
You also need to account for the fact that some burial sites aren't simply dug, filled and covered over.

A burial site that had bodies thrown in at different periods of time allowing the earlier bodies to go into decay before the site was covered can account for higher body counts per site.

Not likely. Filling a grave in stages means that you have to cover each layer of bodies with earth, which reduces the amount of space available for bodies. In fact, the standard story (e.g. from Arad's standard book "Belzec Sobibor Treblinka") of the Reinhardt camps states that a layer of sand was placed over each layers of bodies. (This was the standard version before holocaust believers started to realize that the limitations of available burial space were working against them. Now that they've realized this I'm sure that they'll try to change the story.)

What's more, the grave filling times at the key camps would have been to short for this to have much of an impact. For instance, Sturdy Colls' largest reported pit at Treblinka was 26x17 meters (and is probably at least in part the result of the Soviet bombing, but that's another story). If we assume quite a great depth, this might have a volume of 2,500 cubic meters, and at a maximal density of 8 bodies per cubic meter, filling the grave to the brim we get 20,000 bodies. But in its most active periods of operation, in 1942, Treblinka killed (on the orthodox account) an average of 4,000-5,000 Jews per day. Therefore even the largest grave would have been filled in just a few days - far too short for settling from decomposition to reduce burial space requirements.
 
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