They left for the cottage at 9:30 and returned afterthe murder. Curatolo said he was reading and looked up and noticed them at different times. He did not claim he watched them . Nara didn't check the time thank Grinder for that fact. The teacher slept and woke up , so the scream was heard by both after 10;15 before Guede ran for the stairs, before the tow truck came and left. The stairase behind the court is where they could enter to check the rail without walking in front of Curatolo. The same position is the position from the back of the court to the rail obscured by some trees. No couple would have a good reason to hang out there for so long or at all really.
Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case
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They left for the cottage at 9:30 and returned afterthe murder. Curatolo said he was reading and looked up and noticed them at different times. He did not claim he watched them . Nara didn't check the time thank Grinder for that fact. The teacher slept and woke up , so the scream was heard by both after 10;15 before Guede ran for the stairs, before the tow truck came and left. The stairase behind the court is where they could enter to check the rail without walking in front of Curatolo. The same position is the position from the back of the court to the rail obscured by some trees. No couple would have a good reason to hang out there for so long or at all really.
Chris_Halkides
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Summary of what is wrong with DNA section of the CSC's report
1. The CSC’s report made several serious errors with respect to DNA evidence:
They believe that a six-day gap in testing is sufficient to rule out laboratory contamination. The one-day and two-day gaps in the Farah Jama and Jaidyn Leskie cases suggest otherwise.
They believe that a route of contamination must be proved, when that is often difficult or impossible.
They believe that standards of evidence collection can be violated on the basis of common sense, without any explanation of why a given rule was violated.
2. The CSC’s report suggests it will be very difficult for future Italian defendants to challenge DNA evidence. Besides the points above there are these issues:
The prosecution has only to testify that controls were done, as opposed to producing them in the form of electronic data files.
The prosecution’s expert witness’s claim of no contamination (apparently without having used the electronic data files) is taken as more definitive than the independent (not defense) expert witness’s claim of unreliability of the evidence.
The forensic police will have no burden of showing that proper procedures were followed.
3. The CSC made claims about the present case that are not true, and it ignored problems in the DNA evidence that make it essentially worthless.
The CSC implied that low template DNA does not need special precautions.
The lack of blood on the knife and the fact that it appeared to produce a low template profile are two strong indications of contamination or innocent DNA transfer.
The bra clasp is contaminated according to the Van Oorshot definition.
There were failures in the handling of both the knife and the bra clasp.
The CSC seems to believe that the amount of DNA found in the apartment is equal to the amount of DNA deposited in the apartment.
4. One way to see what is wrong with the CSC’s approach is to ask, which known cases of contamination would have been judged as such under these rules? My answer is that few if any would.
1. The CSC’s report made several serious errors with respect to DNA evidence:
They believe that a six-day gap in testing is sufficient to rule out laboratory contamination. The one-day and two-day gaps in the Farah Jama and Jaidyn Leskie cases suggest otherwise.
They believe that a route of contamination must be proved, when that is often difficult or impossible.
They believe that standards of evidence collection can be violated on the basis of common sense, without any explanation of why a given rule was violated.
2. The CSC’s report suggests it will be very difficult for future Italian defendants to challenge DNA evidence. Besides the points above there are these issues:
The prosecution has only to testify that controls were done, as opposed to producing them in the form of electronic data files.
The prosecution’s expert witness’s claim of no contamination (apparently without having used the electronic data files) is taken as more definitive than the independent (not defense) expert witness’s claim of unreliability of the evidence.
The forensic police will have no burden of showing that proper procedures were followed.
3. The CSC made claims about the present case that are not true, and it ignored problems in the DNA evidence that make it essentially worthless.
The CSC implied that low template DNA does not need special precautions.
The lack of blood on the knife and the fact that it appeared to produce a low template profile are two strong indications of contamination or innocent DNA transfer.
The bra clasp is contaminated according to the Van Oorshot definition.
There were failures in the handling of both the knife and the bra clasp.
The CSC seems to believe that the amount of DNA found in the apartment is equal to the amount of DNA deposited in the apartment.
4. One way to see what is wrong with the CSC’s approach is to ask, which known cases of contamination would have been judged as such under these rules? My answer is that few if any would.
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Sollecito lived 5 minutes away. they ran back at 10:30 changed and were seen later by Curalolo waiting by the rail for the tow truck to leave. Back to break the window and other important details such as moving Meredith and cleaning the bathroom.
acbytesla
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At least this theory comes closer to fitting the digestion theory.
So I guess you are saying that the murder was intentional and premeditated?
After all this is only about an hour and 20 minutes after Popovic left them. They took the opportunity provided by both of theirs sudden availability both being let off the hook from their other plans. Do you think it was the result of a sex game as Mignini originally and the ISC has theorized?
And since you think that Amanda and Raffaele were clothed during the murder, how do you explain that no blood or DNA from Meredith was found on the clothes that Amanda was wearing that evening? Remember they were laid out on Amanda's bed and these clothes were identified by Popovic to be what Amanda was wearing that night.
And were seen on which of the 11 or so CCTV cameras covering that street?
How many of the people that hang out in the numerous cafe's and bars in that street?
What's that? None? What a surprise! That's the same number as there would be if they hadn't left the flat at all!
Dan O.
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That is the wrong question. What you should be wondering is how does Rudy know which room is Amanda's and why was there no sign of Amanda's drawer being opened and why was Amanda's money not seen in the drawer where she had her rent money stashed?
The lone wolf answer is that Rudy didn't know which room was Amanda's. The room with the drawer left open is Laura's and Rudy's story is an attempt after the fact to explain why Laura's drawer was open.
Grinder
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Did I forget that Curatolo said they were wearing different clothes at 9:30 and 10:30?
No one saw them running all over the place. Curatolo though the professional witness he was didn't notice them leaving for half an hour to kill Meredith.
Why would they slink around to avoid being seen coming and going by Curatolo and not include their visit to the plaza as part of their alibi?
You know as in " we went to the plaza and saw the bum that lives there, ask him!"
Why would they not make their alibi fit with facts that could easily be revealed?
The bathroom wasn't cleaned. Not even Raf's alleged footprint or Amanda's blood on the sink. The whole bathroom and hall could have been cleaned in less than a half hour and the smell of bleach would have disappeared by morning with the door open and window broken.
They changed clothes you say. What happened to their bloody attire and shoes? Did they just make them vanish?
The only person or electronic surveillance that saw them that night was Curatolo? Absurd. What about all the people wearing costumes and getting on and off buses? If it was so unusual for them to be in the plaza how could that go unnoticed by the kiosk operator that testified that Curatolo was there?
ETA - why would they worry about the tow truck and car occupants? I mean they were going back and forth, they were carrying the knife, they must have been bloody and many people saw them hanging out.
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Dan O.
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Reminds me of the days from my youth coming back from the boy scout swim classes. It's mid winter, there is a light snow falling and we are loaded into the convertible with the top down still wearing only our swim suits and a towel to protect us from the elements.
We were loosing body heat rapidly but we had excess heat built up from the recent exercise and hot shower that we didn't feel the loss for a while.
Amanda had just gotten out of the shower. She couldn't even stop to towel off because her towel was not there where she expected it. She's in no danger of freezing in the short jaunt to her room and back to the heated bathroom.
Dan O.
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I believe Diocletus did have to use some guess work to correlate the samples so there may be a possibility that he is wrong. I haven't had the time to go over his work yet to confirm or refute it but it does look pretty solid.
Dan O.
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Only the front of the cottage was open. The back half where Amanda and Meredith's rooms are along with the small bath is a separate building that shares the original exterior wall. There would be limited heat loss from these back rooms even if the hall door was left open. In addition, the grow operation downstairs may be providing heat conducting through the floor if it were in that part of the building. That the girls were turning the heat off is an indication that there was an extra head source heating their cottage.
I don't think it was stated that the Italian system doesn't consider motive, or I don't recall that. I have no doubt that her lawyers aren't discussing extradition at this point. It's a long way from today to extradition. As the trial moves forward and a clearer picture of the realities is formed, then there will be discussions of extradition, but based on the facts of the case, that battle won't be over for years.
Sorry to say, but the prosecution is using contrived evidence against her. This is the problem. There is no evidence of Amanda's presence during the murder. None. There is contrived evidence, based on faulty forensic analysis and poorly handled forensic evidence. There is no evidence of multiple perpetrators, but the prosecution in the first trial decided there must be multiple perpetrators and Amanda is one of them. And because she is seeing Raf, let's add him as well.
And of course she doesn't talk about the abuse at the hands of the police, that's just asking for them to add an addition charge of calunnia. That's how ********** up that system is.
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Dan O.
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The slope is 17-18 degrees (you can measure it on my previous photo). Adds only about 5% to the actual distance.
The more important aspect is that the roofline of the front half of the cottage shadows most of the patio door and all of the deck in the direction on Nara's flat. In addition, the outer wall of the car park will be shadowing most of the front of the house and thus limiting any sound that could reach Nara's from the front window or door of the house.
I think the motives were mixed and they played off each other to fuel the attack. Power and the need to humiliate for revenge is one. As far as the sexual aspect, Sollecito has an unusual interest in knives, and not the tree carving kind. The ultra violent manga is as bad as any pornography and no young man would read it unless it was a turn on. Guede was a hanger on opportunist who had mooched off others and probably got involved in something that looked like fun at the start. I don't know how planned it was, it may have just evolved and got out of hand.A knife may have been taken to give Meredith a post Halloween scare.She may have been angry just as Guede said and that may have been the thing that initiated the first act of aggression. Whether it was premeditated or not there was thought to post planning , which may indicate that the murder was committed with the idea at some point that Guede would take all the blame. As far as the clothes on the bed there was no shower so if Amanda washed them at Sollecito's dried them and put them on the bed that is a possibility. In my opinion they worked all night until the phone was turned back on.
Dan O.
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Stealing drugs is something Rudy might do. But not this weekend. Rudy is going to be cash poor and his rent is due in a few of days just like everyone else's. His previous attempt to raise the cash went bust when he was caught in the nursery with the stollen laptop and other items.
This long weekend just before the rent is due is a perfect setup for a quick cash grab. Most of the students are out of town but they needed to collect the cash early to insure they don't get shut out when the cash machines run dry.
Amanda sticks to the room because there is mixed evidence of her bare bloody footprint outside of it and a random mixed blood and DNA blob in the room with the fake robbery. She can announce with certainty they didn't find any other DNA of hers in the bedroom but must avoid the rest of the crime scene. Just because they didn't find her DNA doen't mean its not there by the way. Further she says if she participated in an orgy evidence would be there. I don't know of anyone who is saying anything like that took place. Amanda also completely discounts circomstantial evidence in her recent interviews in Italian.
RoseMontague
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Yes, I thought it was a steeper angle than that. So what is your distance figure?
Chris_Halkides
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mixed-up evidence is more like it
What do you mean mixed evidence? None of the three luminol-positive footprints had any DNA.
The tall heater flush under Meredith's window is a typical electric heater, the tank in the bathroom heat the water. Many Italians unplug those water tanks ovenight to conserve energy costs.
What did they have to show positive in your opinion
Machiavelli
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I picked those years (actually I did not even remember which they were exactly) meaning to pick recent time, a recent period (like 3-5) since when the Meredith case occurred. Let's say the time closer to the events. I wanted to not include the current year (considering that incomplete).
Indeed, I suspected you were considering data starting from 1959, which cannot be considered meaningful. Realities (and countries) change too much over periods of time. Italy had attampts of coup d'etats in the sixties, had an underground civil war during the seventies, created a civil (not military) police only in 1981; changed the criminal procedure code in 1989, created new anti-mafia and anti-terrorism legislation in 1992 and over the ninties; reformed the State Police again in 2003-2004 and Carabinieri in 2010 (and a new reform will take place in 2014). Legislation and realities have changed dramatically several times.
Moreover, also other countries can change dramatically over time and this influences the comparison.
Take 2012:
Italy and Greece were the worst, Italy had 32 violations in 2012 (mostly for lenght of trials) and Greece had 69 violations (overall, considering all kinds).
This was a figur from 2012 (btw, that was a year of most dramatic crisis in both Greece and Italy, while a much better economical situation was still the condition of several other countries).
But, actually, how distant those other countries were, in terms of respect of human rights?
Let's see some data from 2011 instead (I copy and paste this which I posted from elsewhere):
France: 33; Portugal 31; Poland: 71; Romania: 68; Germany: 41; Turkey: 174; UK: 19; Austria: 12; Bulgaria: 62
It comes out that France in 2011 had the same number of violations than Italy in 2012 (when it was among the worst). Whil small Portugal has a comparatively much larger number of violations. Germany has a number almost comparable to France considering the respective populations (so, comparable to Italy's violations of 2012). In pother words, there is no dramatic nor significant difference between Italy, France and Germany when you consider short periods and contemporary times (and we are still considering only aggregated overall number of violations, not their kinds). Meaning Italy of 2012 is comparable with Germany of 2011 (France and Italy have actually a very similar population). Austria in fact looks worse because it has 1/3 of violations but less than 1/7 of population than Italy.
Look back at your long time period since 1959. Italy has 1,687 violations found, a big number indeed, but of which 1,171 are violations for excessive lengh of proceedings. Hence, it is clear Italy has a lenght of proceedings problem.
But it is also clear that this affects most of the bulk of its violations. There is a disproportion between this single figure and the magnitude of the rest of violations, even on the long period. You don't observe such difference in magnitude in other countries which are definitely less human-rights friendly: Russia, Romania, Poland etc. In those you see violations of diverse very serious kinds all in big numbers (deprivation of life, police misconduct and so on).
Violations of "fairness of the trial" (over the whole period), meaning something affecting the outcome, In Italy they are in a smaller magnitude. In total number smaller than France.
Other interesting numbers: Italy has (in 2010) 276,256 police officers (I think the fourth highest density in Europe after Spain Turkey and Greece); while Germany has 243,625, and UK has 167,318. The US has 794,300 police overall, which means a police density a bit more than half of the Italian one. Germany has a density of 300 police per 100,000 inhabitants; France has 356; Italy has a density of 417.
The police density is a datum which statistically affects - obviously - some of the violations, namely those involving police officers. If the density of corruption/misconduct in two police corps was hypothetically "equal", but the second corp is 1.5 times the size of the first, the number of violations committed by police of the second would also be 1.5 times bigger than the first, with no implication that the second is worse than the first.
If you look at your template reporting about the whole interval 1959-2012, you may compare countries on other topics besides "lenght of proceedings", and see that over this very long time interval comparisons are possible on topics like: "freedom of expression" : Italy: 3 violations; Germany: 2; UK: 11; Turkey: 215.
If you look at the topic: violation found of "right to a fair trial" you find more surprises => Italy: 249; France: 257; Germany: 18; United Kingdom: 91; Turkey: 755;
Big unexpected differences between France or Italy and Germany, and performance worse than expected for UK. But then, also you find small countries that have relatively many of them, such as Austria: 86; Belgium: 48; Finland: 37. On the same category "fairness of trial" many other numbers are comparatively much bigger (Greece, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Poland etc.).
From this chart, you cannot infer that the Italian judicial system is found to be an unfair one compared to others in Europe, as for the merit of fairness of trials (with the exception of lenght of proceedings, in both civil and criminal fields): at least five countries are worse in absolute number of violation, while many others are worse in their percentage (either on the total number of trials or on number of inhabitants).
But in Italy there is quite a problem in failure of judiciary to effectively protect property (322 violations), and this is an actual problem in Italy, much more than human rights, which has specific reasons, inherent to the flaws of the system.
You spotted some flaws but you pin them on your idea that the judiciary is "not accountable". That was your guess. But I think your guess in fact shows your poor knowledge of the system. The truth instead is there are other, structural and political reasons for the flaws in the Italian system; which they are related not to judges at all; they depend instead on some specific laws, which have to do with political powers, lobbies and property. I may talk about them in another post.
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