Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

The people who assisted Guede in the group attack.

 

[Briars]

The people who assisted Guede in the group attack.

That would be after 9

 

[anglolawyer]

Meredith and the others left when it was still warm Those electric heaters are turned on when needed due to cost. I believe Meredith encountered an unpleasant group on her return and no heat was turned or needed at 9pm.The fact that the front door was open all night and window was broken also cooled the house.

So, as soon as Popovic relieved Raffaele of the obligation to drive her to the station (encountering a friendly Amanda who invited her inside) the two of them seized the knife and hared round to her place? And they met Guede there or on the way, committed the murder, came back out to the Piazza to be observed by Curatolo, went back in around 11.30 p.m. where Amanda emitted the blood-curdling, reverberating scream etc? Then they staged it to make it look like Guede did it on his own. Do you agree with Barbie and Massei that they got naked before the murder?

 

[acbytesla]

I was speaking of the front door that Amanda said was left open all night. The cottage would have been very cold that morning having lost all the heat of the day.Feeling even colder with dripping wet hair and wandering moving around on the mat.

So? This is apples and oranges as the front door was left open incidentally while no one was there. However Mach's suggestion that the patio door was open at 11:30 at night would have been deliberate while people were there. I could certainly imagine Amanda or Meredith going out on the back patio for a few moments at night, but I can't imagine either of them staying out there for more than a few minutes And I'm very confident with the temperature at 50 degrees outside and probably 68 degrees inside they would close the door behind them going out and coming in. After all, heating a house is expensive so why let the heat out? And coming from Seattle or London where the the weather is on average colder than Perugia, I'm sure Amanda and Meredith both are well trained to keep the heat inside their home.

As for the morning when Amanda was there, the temperature is irrelevant. All this means is that Amanda may have been a little chilly while she took her shower. What Briars? Do you think that Amanda wouldn't shower and change her clothes to go to Gubbio with her new boyfriend of one week just because it might have been a little chilly?

 

[RoseMontague]

Meredith and the others left when it was still warm Those electric heaters are turned on when needed due to cost. I believe Meredith encountered an unpleasant group on her return and no heat was turned or needed at 9pm.The fact that the front door was open all night and window was broken also cooled the house.

So your theory has Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy all there at 9PM when she got home?

No I think they came after , but as soon as they arrived the focus to finish laundry or turn on the heat was lost.

So what unpleasant group did Meredith encounter when she arrived home at 9PM?

The people who assisted Guede in the group attack.

That would be after 9

It's your theory Briars, not mine. Just trying to understand this timeline of the crime. Maybe you can explain it a bit better.

 

[GreyFox]

Cat burglar with a smoking gun

Either that, or in Perugia, it's the cats who use the lights and the bums who poop in the woods.

Suppressed egrams are:

#601 blood from mattress (I had said comforter, that's wrong)
#688 lightswitch
#689 lightswitch

Curious thing about the lightswitch egrams: they are the only downstairs samples that were tested after Knox/Sollecito/Lumumba were arrested (actually, they were tested on the evening of 11/6)

Exactly ! Perhaps had they been tested before .... None of us would be here and when the police announced "case closed" , it might actually had been closed.

I still think Rudy stole pot plants or other items from downstairs as that is why he came over to begin with. To break into his drug dealing friends house since he knew they weren't home.

The girls flat was just a bonus since he realized he could climb the bars on the window without anyone home downstairs.
Once Merideth came home and asked who's in the bathroom the stage was set. He pulled up his pants without flushing, but she's outside the bathroom so he cant leave without her seeing who he is.

That's key because she can identify him. Not to the police but to her drug dealing boyfriend. If dope was stolen from downstairs that could be reason for Rudy to know on the spot he has to leave Perugia before they come home.

No matter how you look at it. The boys aren't going to like that he broke into the girls flat and perhaps theirs.

In the end Rudy realizes if she talks he's in deep **** !

Question is...was there proof that Herman was downstairs? Was the blood his? Or Meredith's? What's the real story !

 

[acbytesla]

No I think they came after , but as soon as they arrived the focus to finish laundry or turn on the heat was lost.

You think that they wouldn't have turned on the heat just because Amanda and Raffaele arrived? I live alone Briars in a fair sized house perched on the side of a valley. It's pretty expensive to heat, so I keep the thermostat set at 58 degrees. I'm reasonably comfortable but I know others are probably not used to it. But whenever I have company I turn the heat up to 68 degrees to be polite.

 

[Skind]

As for the morning when Amanda was there, the temperature is irrelevant. All this means is that Amanda may have been a little chilly while she took her shower. What Briars? Do you think that Amanda wouldn't shower and change her clothes to go to Gubbio with her new boyfriend of one week just because it might have been a little chilly?

Yes, I've pointed this out to guilters a lot of times before.

An innocent Amanda would not know that the heating had not been on, and would thus have no reason to avoid having a shower in the house.

A guilty Knox would know the heating hadn't been on and would know to put it on to make the shower story seem credible. Or leave it on all night to make it look as if Meredith had turned it on when she came home.

Of course, a guilty Knox would want the heating on when spending hours on a clean-up. A guilty Knox would want the heating on when waiting for Meredith.

No one should have to point out that the heating being off is another piece of behavioural evidence indicating Meredith was attacked shortly after getting home, and by someone not familiar enough to have turned the heating on.

 

[davefoc]

I agree completely Dave. The prosecution should either prove it if they are using it (and they are) or at the very least, let the defense run some tests to see if it is indeed possible.

I guess by prove it you mean that the prosecution would show that the sound evidence can be used to reliably show that a scream emanated from the house at a time when AK and RS can not show that they couldn't have been present.

To do this they would obviously have to show that it was physically possible. But even before that the evidence seems so muddled and conflicting on this issue that I don't see how it is valuable to the prosecution's case. Machiavelli and in particular Briars seem to think that it can be shown that a scream did occur in the time frame for which AK/RS don't have an alibi.

Which statement of which witnesses are they relying on for that conclusion? In a normal case where reasonable doubt is the issue it is hard to imagine how this evidence is relevant. There are so many alternative explanations and theories for this evidence and conflicts with other evidence it seems to be so unreliable that it could only serve as evidence of RS/AK for an individual completely consumed by confirmation bias. Something like:

I know RS/AK are guilty so I know the murder of MK happened when RS and AK were present so I know that MK would have screamed so I know that the scream was heard at the right time to confirm my beliefs about the guilt of RS/AK and any evidence which suggests otherwise is obviously wrong because I know RS and AK are guilty.

What is going on here? Is this really the kind of evidence that guilters are hanging their hat on? Why has every post about the difficulty of assigning a time to the hearing of the alleged scream been ignored by the people advocating that RS/AK are guilty?

 

[Methos]

Meredith and the others left when it was still warm Those electric heaters are turned on when needed due to cost. I believe Meredith encountered an unpleasant group on her return and no heat was turned or needed at 9pm.The fact that the front door was open all night and window was broken also cooled the house.

"Electric heaters"?
Where did you see them?
I only saw radiators heated by hot water coming from a "heater" located in "the big bathroom"...

 

[PhreePhly]

Sorry but no dice, Italy's performance is quite dismal in comparison with other Western Europen countries as shown in this plot of violations per capita. The only real competition is Austria (as you correctly pointed out), but it's quite far from the average performance of other western european countries.

Don't forget that this is the legal system that convicted 6 scientists for manslaughter due to their failure to predict an earthquake. I saw Amanda's interview on the Today show this morning and Matt Lauer asked her about her decision not to go to Italy for the trial. I know she has to maintain a certain sense of respect to the court, but I would have been hard pressed not to point out the afore mentioned conviction combined with the absolute disdain for logic that the Italian system showed in her first trial as a reason to "watch" the proceedings from a distance.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

it was stored with extraction buffer

Did they store it in water really? I thought it collected moisture in the plastic bag and a paper one should have been used.

Not in water but with water present, according to Dr. Vecchiotti.

 

[Briars]

So, as soon as Popovic relieved Raffaele of the obligation to drive her to the station (encountering a friendly Amanda who invited her inside) the two of them seized the knife and hared round to her place? And they met Guede there or on the way, committed the murder, came back out to the Piazza to be observed by Curatolo, went back in around 11.30 p.m. where Amanda emitted the blood-curdling, reverberating scream etc? Then they staged it to make it look like Guede did it on his own. Do you agree with Barbie and Massei that they got naked before the murder?

I think it happened after 10:15 plenty of time. Guede was running up the stairs at 10:30. Amanda tried to stretch her dinner to that time indicating when she needed an alibi. They were seen in the piazza around 9;30 and after 11:15 probably watching to see when the towtruck left from the vantage point of the rail. They returned later and cleaned. I don't think they were naked when they murdered Meredith because Guede wasn't. They were barefoot , with prints left and may have been naked then so not to pick up any blood while cleaning before staging.

 

[MDDVS]

The first statement is correct. I do start with the assumption that the testimonies are reliable. Because there is no manifest reason for holding the witness unreliable, and various reason that make them look reliable.
I also point out that Hellmann-Zanetti make the same point, as they call the witnesses "credible" (or "reliable"); (Hellmann-Zanetti were illegitimate and legally their opinion doesn't have consequence, but those who see Hellmann-Zanetti as credible and want to be consistent they should take their opinion into account).
The second is false. I clearly made a distinction between factual elements and mere possibilities. Any contention about the reliability of the witnesses (hence of the testimonies) must be based on factual elements, not on speculations, since the testimonies are factual elements.
It is just possible - theoretically - that the physical conditions (cottage, window pane, distance etc) are an insuperable obstacle for sound propagation, so much as to make it extremely improbable that anyone from neighbouring houses could hear any scream from that room. But whoever wants to make this point, should bring factual elements. There is no obvious impossibility here (like there is no 1 mile distance). There are only 45 meters and a number of favourable conditions, there is the possibility that there were even further favourable conditions. Now, this means who wants to make an argument (for example the defence) would need to find some new information. For example the defence could have done a sound propagation test, and experiment at the location; they did not do it. They requested a hearing test on Nara Capezzali, but they made this request only in 2009, at the very end of the first instance trial. And they made no request (nor any test their own) about sound propagation, uder various conditions, betwen the two spots.
It is obvious that no factual argument was given to back the theory of insuperable physical obstacle, that would be the actual information needed to undermine the credibility of the testimony on the ground of alleged impossibility of hearing a scream.




This is absolutely wrong. Testimonies do not require "validation" to be reliable. They are presumed reliable, in the absence of arguments of the contrary. Testimonies hae the status of factual elements, while your doubts are merely doubts, they are question marks and not factual. You don't need an unequivocal proof that hearing that sound is possible, in order to have a raliable testimony. You don't need to validate a testimony with a proof to make it credible. It's enough if you just don't have a manifest, obvious evidence that the testimony must be false.

Reliable or not, those witnesses didn't actually witness anything related to the crime (they heard unidentified noises like, I suppose, many other perugians that night) so what was the point of even hearing them in court?

 

[Briars]

Don't forget that this is the legal system that convicted 6 scientists for manslaughter due to their failure to predict an earthquake. I saw Amanda's interview on the Today show this morning and Matt Lauer asked her about her decision not to go to Italy for the trial. I know she has to maintain a certain sense of respect to the court, but I would have been hard pressed not to point out the afore mentioned conviction combined with the absolute disdain for logic that the Italian system showed in her first trial as a reason to "watch" the proceedings from a distance.

I think saying the Italian system doesn't consider motive pretty funny, or am I getting that mixed up with another interview there have been so many this week. Do you really think her lawyers haven't discussed extradition yet?She said that which is hard to believe. It is a little late to come on tv and try some damage control , when she has openly accused the prosecution of going after her for spite with contrived evidence. I noticed she hasn't mentioned being slapped recently so this must be part of her scared to face those she lied about routine.

 

[Dan O.]

Nara's apartment is in the third yellow building, counting from the Eastern end of the parking lot, the building less tall than the neighbouring yellow one but slightly more prominent towards the parking area. Nara's window is on a 2nd floor (1st floor in Britain), overlooks the balcony area of the cottage, it is 45 meters distant from the very spot where Meredith was found (70 meters was a defence invention)

I posted these pictures back in December 2010:

[IMGW=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4090[/IMGW]

[IMGW=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4089[/IMGW]

The construction allowed me to picture how much of the window and patio are available to reflect sound up to Nara's ear. There is a possibly a small corner fo the window exposed and none of the deck will play a part.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think it happened after 10:15 plenty of time. Guede was running up the stairs at 10:30. Amanda tried to stretch her dinner to that time indicating when she needed an alibi. They were seen in the piazza around 9;30 and after 11:15 probably watching to see when the towtruck left from the vantage point of the rail. They returned later and cleaned. I don't think they were naked when they murdered Meredith because Guede wasn't. They were barefoot , with prints left and may have been naked then so not to pick up any blood while cleaning before staging.

OK thanks. Like Rose, I was misled by something you said which suggested they were already there when she got home. What were they doing in the Piazza from 9.30 to 10.15 (or so)?

Aren't there problems with this timeline? Curatolo has to not notice their absence from 10.15 to 10.30 and then they have to resume the same position as before such as to make him think they were there all the time. Why do they do that?

Nara is out by an hour or so with the scream and somebody has to dump the phones at Lana's place. Was that Guede? Was he heading in that direction when he ran up the stairs or in the opposite direction into town? Why not dump the phones in a garage can in town? Why double all the way round to Lana's?

 

[Briars]

You think that they wouldn't have turned on the heat just because Amanda and Raffaele arrived? I live alone Briars in a fair sized house perched on the side of a valley. It's pretty expensive to heat, so I keep the thermostat set at 58 degrees. I'm reasonably comfortable but I know others are probably not used to it. But whenever I have company I turn the heat up to 68 degrees to be polite.

Lets just say that the arrival of Amanda Sollecito and Guede was not pleasing to Meredith for some reason.

 

[MDDVS]

Just a side question: you picked up a chart which doesn't show the year.
(and also does not show quite well single categories).
When you get to numbers, count for example: how many violation of right to a fair trial in Italy and in France over, let's say, the years 2008-2010.

I've been through that, they have similar numbers of violations to a fair trial (excluding the "within reasonable time" clause), however France also has a larger population. I don't see your point, Italy's performance is still the worst (or second worst if you consider the absolute numbers). Why do you pick those particular years? Is there anything special or magic about them? Do they make Italy look a bit better? The data I showed is for the years 1959 to 2012. It's much more relevant data, as it less sensitive to random fluctuations.

Still, I don't think you can discount the violations of the right to speedy trial as irrelevant. The fact that this happens because of Italian law just makes the whole afair more sinister in mind, I don't see what you gain by stating that the judicial system operates in away to produce systematic abuses of human rights by design.

 

[Grinder]

So, as soon as Popovic relieved Raffaele of the obligation to drive her to the station (encountering a friendly Amanda who invited her inside) the two of them seized the knife and hared round to her place? And they met Guede there or on the way, committed the murder, came back out to the Piazza to be observed by Curatolo, went back in around 11.30 p.m. where Amanda emitted the blood-curdling, reverberating scream etc? Then they staged it to make it look like Guede did it on his own. Do you agree with Barbie and Massei that they got naked before the murder?

And as I understand it, the cat was operating the computer at Raf's.

I keep telling them to drop Curatolo. His testimony just gets in the way. Nara and Monacchia's testimonies can be altered at will since neither could state a time.

It is much easier to make up a scenario without old Curatolo. Add in the tow truck and car occupants and time openings really get squeezed.

Yes, yes they met Meredith before they left their own place and then killed her and went to the plaza and argued. They had blood on them, er no they were naked, yeah that's the ticket. No Curatolo would have mentioned they were naked.

There was the scream and they ran er but then they would be all bloody and when would they have left all the bloody footprints?

I know. How about Meredith came home and was killed by Rudy and people he actually knew? How about she being dead by 9:30 - 10?

But what about the barking dogs. Were those the same barking dogs as in the O.J. case?